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Hey guys, so in the Ravenwing Strike Force rules it says "all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal." since normal deployment for Flyers is reserve, does that mean the bikes can go on the table and the flyer in reserve? Or does it mean that all the units must be on the table or in Reserve? 1d4chan and a few players I know say its the former, but some say its the latter. Which is it?

No. Either relates to all units. So all units must be in reserve OR all units must be deployed in the table.

It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Trystis wrote:
It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Apart from the bit where it says "all of the units must either " of course.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Trystis wrote:
It doesn't say anything about all in reserve or all on the table. It says they can be deployed as normal, or all in reserve.

Normal for a flyer is reserve so bikes can can still go on the table, and the flyer goes in reserve and comes onto the board like normal.

Apart from the bit where it says "all of the units must either " of course.

If it meant any other way than how you are saying it, Strike As One would basically just be "Deploy Your Army as Normal, Reserve Units Arrive Automatically on Turn 2".

It's not really a push to say normal for a flyer is coming on from reserve. It is however a push to say deploying a flyer on the table at the start of the game is normal.

OP, you'll likely find the vast majority of opponents you face will allow you keep it in reserves. If they don't, well then you have no way of deploying and can't play. find a new opponent.

I've personally not found a single player (irl) that doesn't allow it

No, if you take a flyer, then the entire formation is held in reserve. Thats how that rule works. Anythign else means the rule has absolutely no affect.

Oh, and holding in reserve is instead of deploying. So you can never say being held in reserve is deploying normally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, if you take a flyer, then the entire formation is held in reserve. Thats how that rule works. Anythign else means the rule has absolutely no affect.

Oh, and holding in reserve is instead of deploying. So you can never say being held in reserve is deploying normally.

Indeed, there phrasing of the rule is so an army composed entirely of bikes and speeders CAN be deployed on the field Turn 1. But if they include a flyer, they all go in reserve. It is Strike As One, not Strike In Parts.

and if the entire formation is your only formation, then you cannot play, and you move on to the next player that is fine with your house rule

 jokerkd wrote:
and if the entire formation is your only formation, then you cannot play, and you move on to the next player that is fine with your house rule

Thems the brakes. Better include something that does arrive Turn 1.

What do you mean "arrive turn 1"? do you mean deploying before the game?

 jokerkd wrote:
What do you mean "arrive turn 1"? do you mean deploying before the game?

Or comes in from reserves on Turn 1 like another detachment that includes Drop Pods. But if you only run an army of Ravenwing and include a flyer in that detachment, you are going to lose automatically. The same thing is true of the Deathwing Strike Force (can be mitigated with Dreadnoughts in Drop Pods) and stuff like the Legion of the Damned detachment. There are even ways to make a full Ravenwing army that doesn't auto-lose. Just include one of the non-flyer Ravenwing formations, such as the Ravenwing Attack Squadron or Ravenwing Support Squadron. The rules don't need to be bent in your favor just because you built a non-viable army.

"all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal."

This provides the option to either:
Place everything in reserve

Or

Deploy them as normal

You are choosing to ignore the word "Normal". Fliers have their own rules for deployment. By definition its normal to deploy them in that matter. It's exactly as normal to use those rules for the flyer as it is to deploy the bikes as you would regularly.

By demanding that they all go into reserve if you have a flier you are ignoring the OR.

Incorrect. Flyers do not deploy normally. Instead of deploying, they are placed in reserve.

Before responding further, please check what the rules state about placing models in reserve.

Joker - so if I want to have an army just of LatD, I get to turn up turn 1 as a houserule?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Flyers do not deploy normally. Instead of deploying, they are placed in reserve

Yeah your right that is how flyer deploy. Deploying then any other way would be abnormal.

The rules states to deploy them as normal, i.e. for flyers, in reserve. The rule doesn't state that everything has to start on the board, you are making that assumption because you are only selectively applying the word normal.

SO in your world "strike as one" means "strike in bits and pieces"?

I see you didnt bother checking the rules for reserves, as requested. Units placed in reserve are not deployed so no, a flyers normal deployment is not to be put in reserve. (it is what they do normally INSTEAD of being deployed)

Page 135, Preparing Reserves:
"..., players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Rserves to arrive later"

You are also avoiding the subject of the rule, which is "all of the units..." having to choose to deploy or start in reserve. You cannot have SOME deploy and SOME go in reserve, as that is not ALL of the units.

I am making absolutely no assumptions, you are simply ignoring a) the rule itself and b) the rules for reserves.

Page 505 of iBook format:

“Aerial Support
Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule).”

And the rule for flyers state they "must start in reserve". This is normal deployment for them. So when I choose normal deployment the flyer doesn't starting ignoring its normal deployment, nor do the bikes ignore their normal deployment. Doing anything other than this requires a special rule that SPECIFICALLY states that it effects the flyer, and the bikes can either be placed in reserve or on the table which is normal for them. If the rule stated that they had to be on table you would be correct, but it doesn't. It allows you to use normal rules, which you are ignoring

The purpose of the rule is to allow you an alternate form of deployment if you choose to take it.

The rule phrasing matters, not the title of the rule.

Yes, flyers normally start in Reserve

They do not normally DEPLOY in reserve

Because Reserves is a choice "not to deploy"

If you are not deploying, howa reyou claiming the flyer is deploying?

And, again: you ignore that ALL OF THE UNITS IN THE FORMATION must pick to deploy or start in reserves. The flyer startting in reserve means everything else must start in reserve.

Yes, the rule pohrasing matters. But the title is a clue. And, as proven, the phrasing supports the title as well, which is handy

Placing models in reserve is part of normal deployment. So when I chose to deploy normally it effects everything even flyers. Let's look at the the rules for deployment section:

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve" pg 589

When I deploy models using the rules for deployment before the 1st turn the deployment rules give me the option to either start them on the board or place them in reserve. I can do either, the strike as one doesn't state I must choose the board.

And deploying flyers by placing them in reserve is the normal way to deploy them. Any other way requires a special rule.

No. Youre flat out wrong, as the rules have been given already show.

Page 135, Preparing Reserves:
"..., players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Rserves to arrive later"

As you missed it last time.

Being placed in reserve is NOT deployment. This rule states so.

Counter this rule. Page and graph.

How do you deploy 'as normal'? 'As normal' I put some units on the table, and some in reserves. Then in turn 2 I roll for the reserves.

The advantage of putting everything into reserves is that they all arrive turn 2 without rolling.

Don't overthink the definition of 'as normal'..

Ushtarador wrote:
How do you deploy 'as normal'? 'As normal' I put some units on the table, and some in reserves. Then in turn 2 I roll for the reserves.

The advantage of putting everything into reserves is that they all arrive turn 2 without rolling.

Don't overthink the definition of 'as normal'..

"deploy as normal"

Placing a unit in reserves is INSTEAD of deploying them. As the rules state.

In addition, if you place some units in reserve and deploy some on the table, you have broken the rule which states ALL units must either be deployed or put in reserves. Binary, all or nothing - all in reserve, all on the table deployed. So if some cannot be deployed, they must all be in reserve

No "over think"-ing going on. Just following all applicable rules.

If you disagree, cite your ruels references that counter the ones given already.

First, the rule you quote for reserves is larger:

“When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later. In addition, if it impossible to deploy a unit for any reason, it must be placed in Reserve"

The flyer must go in reserves per its rules. This is the normal consequence of deployment for them. It's impossible to deploy them any other way without a special rule. This is once again by definition normal for them.

If you chose to place everything in reserves they receive a special rule, if you chose to deploy normally they do not so they must follow the steps you provided, where they end up in reserve.

Nothing about the strike as one rule forces me to choose either options, I get to decide. If I chose the option with out the special rule the flier ends up in reserve per the rule you quoted

Yes, it is normal for them to be placed in Reserves. However, AGAIN the rules FOR RESERVES

States
That
Being
Placed
In
Reserves
Is
Not
Deployment

How many times can this be stated? Being put in reserves is not being deployed. It is being placed in reserves.

Hell, you're even told if it is "impossible to deploy a unit" it gets put in reserves - meanign reserves CANNOT be deployment, because otherwise it would not be impossible to deploy them!

So, please. Explain how when you are told putting a unit in reserve is when you choose NOT to deploy then, or when it is IMPOSSIBLE to deploy them, that this is somehow deployment? Page and graph please.

Where it says normal. Explain why you get to ignore normal

Explain why you get to ignore Deploy.

GO on. You've been asked often enough. Explain how you can "deploy" in reserves, despite Reserves being something you do instead of "deploy".

I'm not ignoring it, im following it normally

For example using a CAD:
I look at the deployment process and things can either be deployed or reserved now
Its my turn to deploy, and I get to my flier
I look at the flier rule and it states it must be in reserves.
I look at the reserve rule, and it states that things that are impossible to deploy must be held in reserve.
This is normal

For example using a RWSF:
I look at the deployment process and things can either be deployed or reserved now
Its my turn to deploy, and i choose to deploy normally
I get to my flier
I look at the flier rule and it states it must be in reserves.
I look at the reserve rule, and it states that things that are impossible to deploy must be held in reserve.
This is normal

If it changes between the two examples then it isn't normal and you are breaking the strike as one rule.

Sigh

You are told you must deploy as normal

being placed in reserves is something you do instead of deploy(ing)

By placing the flyer in reserve, you have placed the model in reserves, you have not deployed. If other units deploy, then you have not followed the REQUIREMENT that EITHER ALL units deploy or ALL units are placed in reserves.

Youre still breaking a rule, and still dont seem to understand a basic diference between deploy and palce in reserves.

Until you actually address this, tehre is no discussion possible with you. You jsut remain wrong.

I'm not breaking the rule. It's impossible to deploy a flier akin any circumstance.

The reserve rule tells you how to handle this. You place it in reserve.

The strike as one rule gives me the option to deploy normally. That is how deployment is handled for a flier. No where does it state that everything has to go in reserves if I deploy a flier.

You are ignoring the very rule you quoted, and demanding something special happen when the rules say it should be normal.

No, I am not
Te rule REQUIRES that every single unit in the formation is either on the table deployed, or every single unit is placed in reserves

A flier cannot deploy*

A flier can only be placed in reserves

So if you include a flier, it must be placed in reserve. As one unit is placed in reserve, every unit in the formation must be placed in reserve.

Done. Proven. Counter the actual argument (you are claiming a flier placed in reserves has deployed, despite the rules stating the exact opposite, for a start) or quit.
Until you understand that "deploy" and "place in reserve" arent the same thing, you cannot possibly argue in a way that will have any relevance.

*bar ready for takeoff upgrade for SSLP