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So the first sentence of the rule is useless then?
Or instead the scope of "either" is "all units..." , as one single entity. So either (all units) are placed in reserve or (all units) are deployed normally.
Ok so is the rule "strike as one, ex let when we don't"? I'm interested in just how far people, are willing to twist a sensible rule to have an utterly different meaning.

Context is utter clear. When you choose to deploy or place in reserves, make one choice for all units. If you have a flier, and no sslp, you're tied to placing all in reserves.

This fits the actual rule, gives the actual rule function, and even fits the name of the rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The whole rule is past tense though, and obviously talks about, in context, the deployment part of the game setup. You know, the point where you choose (where possible) whether to place units in reserve or not. Hence there is a delimited time frame when deployed normally is referring to the choice to deploy or the choice (or imposition) not to deploy. A flier does not deploy normally, it is placed in reserve.

So, you are placing an assumption on the temporal reference it is speaking of. Or is there a section of the rule that hasn't been quoted that literally places all deploying as normal during deployment?

And you are missing the point about Flyers. Flyers do not deploy normally when compared to an Infantry or Bike unit, but deploying from Reserves IS normal for Flyers. We aren't tasked with "deployed normally for infantry units", just "deployed normally". Flyers Arriving From Reserves IS normal for them. That IS their "normal" standard of deploying. Ignoring slow down from Difficult Terrain is not normal for Infantry, but is normal for Bikes. Understanding that which is "normal" for the unit in question is part of the issue.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The "or..." Rule does give a choice. The first part limits the scope of what the choice can be applied to "every unit in the formation". Not "every unit individually,,,"

If you are saying I can choose differently for each unit,, then the first part of the rule does nothing. Luckily the rule makes no allowance for you to choose for each unit; the entire formation is either in reserves or not

Actually, I can since "deploying normally" does make allowance for each unit to be chosen. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise in the other rules of the game. Even more so, "normal" is not the same for every unit. A Fortification is "normally" deployed during deployment. An Infiltrating unit "deploys normally" after all units without the Infiltrate rule. An Infiltrating unit "normally" has the option to "deploy" from Outflank.

The key is understanding what is "normal" in every case. "Normally" a detachment is often split up with some deployed on the board and some in Reserves, especially where Flyers and units required to Deep Strike are concerned, not all on the table.

Your perspective of "normal" needs to be updated or supported. So far, you have not supported it with a quote.

I have proven it

Again, you are making the claim that the first part of the rule HAS NO FUNCTION. Please clarify that you truly mean that they wrote something purely for the hell of it, and it has no meaning.

Can you agree to that?

Fliers are "normally" placed in reserves. That is how they are "normally" handled. When do you make the choice ? Before the game in the deployment phase, or is this simply an issue with you missing the context of when you normally "choose" to deploy or place something in reserves? It's pretty damn clear

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have proven it

Not with a quote, you have not. You are attempting to make a solid definition of "deployed normally" as to being "deployed on the tabletop during deployment". This has yet to be proven with anything from the rulebook that you have provided.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, you are making the claim that the first part of the rule HAS NO FUNCTION. Please clarify that you truly mean that they wrote something purely for the hell of it, and it has no meaning.

Incorrect. The purpose is to establish an optional condition for the rest of the rule. If you want to use the rest of the rule, you must place all units from the detachment in Reserves. You do not HAVE to use Strike As One any more than First Huntsman by not having the Warlord in the Detachment. That is why the second sentence starts with, "If placed in Reserve", as opposed to the expectation that it will be.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fliers are "normally" placed in reserves. That is how they are "normally" handled. When do you make the choice ? Before the game in the deployment phase, or is this simply an issue with you missing the context of when you normally "choose" to deploy or place something in reserves? It's pretty damn clear

This "normal" decision is made when selecting the unit. This does not mean what is "normal" for the Flyer is "normal" for the rest of the detachment? No. So placing that same expectation on others would NOT be deploying "normal".

Any other consideration is a Tactical question, not a Rules question.

Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

There is a difference requiring all of a detachment to start in Reserves, though. And there are often unneeded rules put in place, too. Flying Monstrous Creatures Swooping near an Obelisk need to take a Dangerous Terrain Test, but automatically pass it because they have Move Through Cover.

It could have been worded better, true, but nothing in there still changes what is "normal" for a Flyer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

Context. Cannot use it without it. Nothing has been stated in this rule regarding deployment. This is an assumption only, with no literal basis in fact.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

It is a choice for all units. ALL the units in the detachment in Reserves, or deployed normally. Flyers are still in Reserves NORMALLY.

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

 Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Incorrect. Without this line, the second sentence still functions. There is absolutely no need for the first sentence,e under your interpretation of the rule. So, again do you agree that the first sentence is functionally useless,, using your interpretation of the rule?

There is a difference requiring all of a detachment to start in Reserves, though. And there are often unneeded rules put in place, too. Flying Monstrous Creatures Swooping near an Obelisk need to take a Dangerous Terrain Test, but automatically pass it because they have Move Through Cover.

So you believe the rule has no function then, agreed?

The omission of the first line has no bearing on the second. It gives exactly the same bonus if the whole detachment is placed in reserve.

What the first line DOES DO is make you place the whole formation either in reserve or deploy it. All units are deployed. Or all units are placed in reserve. If the choice is the second, then you come in turn two.

It could have been worded better, true, but nothing in there still changes what is "normal" for a Flyer.

Normally fliers are placed in reserves. Abnormally they hover on a sslp

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Context. Use it. What is the context of the first sentence, the one under discussion? The deployment phase. Because that is when you make a choice between deploying a unit normally, or placing a unit in reserve.

Context. Cannot use it without it. Nothing has been stated in this rule regarding deployment. This is an assumption only, with no literal basis in fact.

When in the game do you choose to deploy or place a unit in reserves?

That is when this choice is made


This is the period the rule refers to. If you disagree, you are ignoring the context of the rule. So, do you disagree?
If you disagree, offer an alternative context.

That is when you have deployed normally, or you have been placed in reserves instead of deploying normally. Because we know for a fact being placed in reserves is done instead of deploying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The first line also makes the requirement that this choice is the same for all units. Either all are placed in reserve or all are deployed. So no matter what, as soon as you place the flyer in reserve, al other units must be placed in reserve.

It is a choice for all units. ALL the units in the detachment in Reserves, or deployed normally. Flyers are still in Reserves NORMALLY.

OR deployed normally. Not AND deployed normally.

EVEN IF your contention ere true, you have not complied. Because the flier was placed in reserves, and the other units were not. So you break the rule requiring all units pick the first, as a single set of objects, or they pick the second, as a single set.

The units in this formation are oranges. All oranges must be eaten, or saved for later. If some oranges are eaten now, and some oranges are saved for later, did you comply with the rule?

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

Done and done, throughout this thread

You are ignoring that your decision binds all units to the same state: deploy or do not deploy. (Not placed in reserves or placed in reserves) and are pretending you can have some in reserve and some deployed. Your argument entirely ignores the first sentence as having meaning. Your argument ignores the context of this rule, which is restricted to the deployment phase. Your argument ignores that you are equating placed in reserves with deployed normally, when the rule presents them as alternatives

And so on

Your argument is proven wrong.

I think you might be misunderstanding the context based on the title of the rule.

You can interpret as:
A) The choice is Strike as One reserves version or Strike as One ground version.

B) The choice is Strike as One from Reserves or just deploy normally/standard deployment without striking as one.

Why I think this is choice B is because they had to add the normal deployment option to the formation because without it you would automatically lose any game if it was your only formation in the army and as far as I am aware, all formations should be able to be used by themselves. Or at least I am not aware of any that don't work on their own in some fashion.

Deathwing by itself doesn't work as everything must start in reserve (and even stipulates that Dreads in Pod come in with the rest of the formation).

Legion of the Damned doesn't work by itself since everything has to start in reserve (unless you play one of the special missions where they come in Turn 1).

Ravenwing Strike Force doesn't work if you take a Flyer as everything has to start in Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you believe the rule has no function then, agreed?

That is not what I said. I was responding to the fact that YOU said I said it has no function. Simple fact. Either they all start in Reserves or get deployed normally.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The omission of the first line has no bearing on the second. It gives exactly the same bonus if the whole detachment is placed in reserve.

Relevant still. The first sets a condition for the detachment, and then the second is based on the status of the first. That is what I actually said earlier.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
What the first line DOES DO is make you place the whole formation either in reserve or deploy it. All units are deployed. Or all units are placed in reserve. If the choice is the second, then you come in turn two.

Incorrect. All in Reserves, or progress normally. If you do go all in, you arrive Turn 2.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
When in the game do you choose to deploy or place a unit in reserves?

That is when this choice is made

Not for Flyers, unless you have a certain Fortification handy. Not for Drop Pods ever. Those are chosen when the unit is purchased before deployment.

But still, does not change the fact, that when deploying normally, the option to put in Reserves is still available and can be deployed later. A specific time frame is not set in this sentence or before it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This is the period the rule refers to. If you disagree, you are ignoring the context of the rule. So, do you disagree?
If you disagree, offer an alternative context.

This is an assumption. There is nothing stated in this sentence or before this sentence which requires deploying during deployment, especially units which must start the game in Reserve. No restriction against individual units being put in Reserves "as normal" is ever stated.

No quote, no support. No support, no argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OR deployed normally. Not AND deployed normally.

No restriction against Reserves deploying is mentioned for individual units. Putting some units in Reserves is the normal option for deploying detachments. If you disagree, quote the rulebook.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
EVEN IF your contention ere true, you have not complied. Because the flier was placed in reserves, and the other units were not. So you break the rule requiring all units pick the first, as a single set of objects, or they pick the second, as a single set.

Flyers are not the whole detachment, just part of the detachment. And it is normal for them to be deployed from Reserves.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The units in this formation are oranges. All oranges must be eaten, or saved for later. If some oranges are eaten now, and some oranges are saved for later, did you comply with the rule?

Yes. They were eaten or saved for later.

Not a proper comparison, though.

Each batch of oranges must be shipped together, if they are not shipped together, they get parceled out by the box per normal. If some people have a standing agreement to take so many boxes of a batch when not shipped together. This agreement requires shipping out the boxes.

Did you violate the rules by shipping out boxes when not shipping out the batch?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Present a quote redefining "normally" to specifically exclude the Flyer's "normal" or a quoted statement that this rule is specifying deployment only, or your argument is dead. You are focusing only on one line while ignoring all the interconnecting rules associated with them, and attempting to establish standards which have not been presented. Connect your argument farther than this one sentence.

Done and done, throughout this thread

Where? You focus only on one line without quoting anything. You have not demonstrated anything restating what is normal for a Flyer. You have not quoted anything stating that this rule is in deployment. You have relied on assumptions, nothing more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are ignoring that your decision binds all units to the same state: deploy or do not deploy. (Not placed in reserves or placed in reserves) and are pretending you can have some in reserve and some deployed. Your argument entirely ignores the first sentence as having meaning. Your argument ignores the context of this rule, which is restricted to the deployment phase. Your argument ignores that you are equating placed in reserves with deployed normally, when the rule presents them as alternatives

Incorrect. My decision is between "all in" or "normal play" for the detachment. You are attempting to redefine "normal play" without providing any support for it whatsoever. Individual units can be placed in Reserves when a detachment deploys as normal. If you disagree, please present where in the rulebook it states otherwise, or where it states "on the tabletop" in Strike As One.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Ravenwing Strike Force doesn't work if you take a Flyer as everything has to start in Reserves.

The language for RSF and DWSF do not match in requirements. Normal deployment is not an option for the DWSF.

Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

From Reserves.

How does a bike normally deploy?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph, how does the Dark Talon normally deploy?

From Reserves.

How does a bike normally deploy?

Normally, it is deployed in the controlling player's table half. Unless the player decides not to deploy and instead places the unit in reserves.

Christoph - remove the first sentence

Now, does the second still function in terms of giving a bonus if every unit is placed in reserve? Yes or no

You fail to heed the context, or the text of the rule. I refuse to continue this dialogue of the deaf. You are stating black is white, and think a wall of quotes will suffice to "win"

The set of all units is "A"

A must be in reserve or A. must be deployed. You have no permission to split A, according to the actual text of the actual rule given.

Your argument lacks any support, as my support has been given already.

Bye.

Well that escalated quickly

The RAW arguments have been made over and over. I just wanted to assure the OP that, judging by my experience, he shouldn't have a problem finding an opponent that will allow him to play it as he understands it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - remove the first sentence

Now, does the second still function in terms of giving a bonus if every unit is placed in reserve? Yes or no

Yes, it still does. Now, the following question, what if only some are in Reserves and not all the units in the Detachment, without that first sentence, would it still work?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You fail to heed the context,

There is no further context to actually use. Context would require more to be written then has been discussed. That would mean that it is written elsewhere. Is all deploying only done in deployment? No, it is not.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
or the text of the rule.

No, I have been recognizing what "normal" means and its relationship to the unit types in question. You have been trying to reterm what "normally" means to be one exclusive method for all units, which does not currently apply. Flyers and Infantry do not normally deploy the same way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I refuse to continue this dialogue of the deaf. You are stating black is white, and think a wall of quotes will suffice to "win"

Incorrect. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Can you demonstrate otherwise?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
The set of all units is "A"

A must be in reserve or A. must be deployed. You have no permission to split A, according to the actual text of the actual rule given.

Your statement here is a missing a key component. Here, let me correct:

"A must be in Reserves, or A must be deployed normally."

Normal deployment for A IS splitting it between tabletop and Reserves, especially when certain units are required to be in Reserves.

If you do think splitting a detachment between tabletop and Reserves is not normal, especially when specific units require it, can you provide a quote to support it?

Honestly, judging from grammar and word usage. It sounds like someone is way too close to this debate to be taken seriously. When their Strawman falls to pieces, they try and rebuild it with new yet somehow worse straw rather than contemplate that their argument may in fact be, a piece of garbage.
But i won't name names. Just consider the following....
Would you play against someone who couldn't understand the concept of the words "normally"?

Christoph -

not doing quote wall any longer. Too fragmented

1) Yes, because the context (gee, that word again!) is clear as to how the automatic turn up applies to.

So again, your claim results in the first sentence having no function. My fclaim - that it requires every unit to be placed in reserves, or every unit to not be placed in reserves, the one supported by the text, DOES make this rule have a function

AND

it has the benefit of fitting the name of the rule. Strike as One. Not Strike as One, unless we dont want to.

2) Context - when in the game do you choose betwen placing a unit in Reserves or deploying them normally? THere is only one time you do so.

That is the context of this rule.

You say otherwise, but cannot actually show how you arrive there without handwaving.

3) I am not redefining "Normally" at all. I am just paying attention to the whole rule, and not the single word you are obsessed with

The whole rule talks about being placed in reserve as WELL as "deployed normally". You know the thing that happens to flyers? If you are claiming "deployed normally" somehow has no bearing to the deployment phase - flying in the face of the written rules context - then you are claiming the "either" resolves to "Placed in Reserves or Placed in Reserves", as you are claiming the deployment during the game somehow is the "deployed normally" (because you ignore the context of the rule) and this STILL has absolutely no affect ont he requirement that EVERY unit in the formation has to make the SAME choice (forced or otherwise) or you break the rule - you know, the rule your argument ignores?

4) Flyers are normally Placed in Reserves. They may then be deployed from Deepstrike reserve OR Reserves, but that is after the context of the rule and is therefore irrelevant to the question at hand - whcih requires you to make a choice of either being placed in reserve OR being deployed normally, which is deing deployed normally on the table / infiltrate during the later step. There is no other context that is relevant here.

But it doesnt matter. Youve made your mind up - to ignore context, to ignore the way the rule is written, to render one rule functionally useless, and to render two very different statements as functional equivalents. I have no idea why you have decided to make so many changes to the written rule, but hey, iplease feel free to play any houserule you like

Just dont claim its the actual rules

Nronoxx - noone has created a strawman yet. There have been posters make claims regarding strawmen, but dont understand the term. If youc oudl point it out it would be helpful, as opposed to passive aggressive gak. Ta.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
1) Yes, because the context (gee, that word again!) is clear as to how the automatic turn up applies to.

So again, your claim results in the first sentence having no function. My fclaim - that it requires every unit to be placed in reserves, or every unit to not be placed in reserves, the one supported by the text, DOES make this rule have a function

But it does not fit the actual words of the sentence. "Deployed normally" is not "not placed in Reserves" for every unit, and that is the issue with your case. You are claiming a translation that has not been supported by any other presented rule before now. With no conversion/translation, you have no context to support your case.

it has the benefit of fitting the name of the rule. Strike as One. Not Strike as One, unless we dont want to.

Again, name means little, nor is it a requirement to use this rule due to the "or" and "if" clauses presented.

2) Context - when in the game do you choose betwen placing a unit in Reserves or deploying them normally? THere is only one time you do so.

That is the context of this rule.

You say otherwise, but cannot actually show how you arrive there without handwaving.

Without a quote from somewhere else to support this context, it is only an assumption. It is normal for a Flyer to deploy from Reserves, it is not normal for a Bike. That is the context I am operating from since this sentence does not state "deployed normally during deployment".

3) I am not redefining "Normally" at all. I am just paying attention to the whole rule, and not the single word you are obsessed with

The whole rule talks about being placed in reserve as WELL as "deployed normally". You know the thing that happens to flyers? If you are claiming "deployed normally" somehow has no bearing to the deployment phase - flying in the face of the written rules context - then you are claiming the "either" resolves to "Placed in Reserves or Placed in Reserves", as you are claiming the deployment during the game somehow is the "deployed normally" (because you ignore the context of the rule) and this STILL has absolutely no affect ont he requirement that EVERY unit in the formation has to make the SAME choice (forced or otherwise) or you break the rule - you know, the rule your argument ignores?

Yes, you are redefining "normally" to try and force an unstated context. Can you demonstrate how deploying from Reserves is not normal for a Flyer?

And no, I have never stated that deployment is ongoing throughout the game. That is a misrepresentation based on putting my case in to your unsupported paradigm.

Deployment is finished when Scout redeploying and Harlequin/Deceiver redeploying is done. Moving On From Reserves, Deep Strike, and Outflank, all describe the placement of units on the field as deploying. So deploying does continue during the game so long as anything is in Reserves.

4) Flyers are normally Placed in Reserves. They may then be deployed from Deepstrike reserve OR Reserves, but that is after the context of the rule and is therefore irrelevant to the question at hand - whcih requires you to make a choice of either being placed in reserve OR being deployed normally, which is deing deployed normally on the table / infiltrate during the later step. There is no other context that is relevant here.

You have provided nothing to support that deploying on the tabletop during deployment is normal for all units, including Flyers. Without that, you have no case or context to apply.

Look it up. Quote it. Prove your case with evidence from outside one sentence instead of tirades and accusations.

When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

The choice is made initially during the deployment phase.

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve" pg 589

When you deploy during the deployment phase you have the option to place a unit in reserves.

What is the difference between "Deployed normally" and "must deploy" from the mission rule? The mission states you MUST DEPLOY so no reserves by your logic.... Unless of course placing something in reserves is part of deployment. Let's look at the deployment section of the book again.

“models must either deploy within their deployment zone, or be held back in Reserve"

You claim that deploy requires that a unit is on the table at the beginning, but this context is not backed up by the rules. If it was it would be impossible to place anything in reserves as the mission rules require for units to deploy.

That is not my logic. Which I pointout every time you bring this up. And every time you ignore it.

The mission special rule Reserves modifies thus requirement by giving an additional permission. For the nth time of telling.

Oh and nice attempt at a caveat. This choice IS made during the deployment phase.

Which is when flier is placed into reserves, so it is not deployED at this point

Oh look, context proven.

So every single unit must make choice A, or choice B. You are not allowed to mix the two statuses. The presence of a flier forces everything else to be placed in reserves, as the rule requires.

Thus, in common with a fair few formations, you can auto lose turn one. Try not to do so.

The reserve rule would apply to RWSF as well. It is how to deploy normally for the mission. Thus would be included in deploy normally option of the strike as one rule.

I made no attempt at a caveat I quoted an entire rule section from the rule book description of deployment. You have the option to place units in reserve.

The units are DEPLOYed during the DEPLOYment phase which per the deployment section of the rule book allows for them to be placed in reserve

Other formations don't offer the ability to deploy normally like this one does. So if a player choose to deploy normally with a dark talon they don't auto lose.

The choice isn't made "initially". It is just "made". That is the point it is made.

At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Deployed on the board or being placed in reserves are both part of deployment. This is stated in the section where deployment is discussed.

The rule on 135 doesn't prove anything in regards to deployment because it's a rule for reserves, not for how to deploy. You use the deployment process provided in the deployment section of the rule book for that. This provides the option for reserved.

Even if that didn't provide the option the reserves the rule you referenced also has an exception that if it's impossible to deploy on table it goes to reserves automatically. There is no other option.

There is no RAW that requires the RWSF to place all units in reserve if one is. The strike as one rule requires you to choose EITHER to place all units in reserve OR to deploy normally. RAW requires me to choose between the two, one option provides a benefit the other is normal. Normal isn't a limitation, it's how things are done if no special circumstances interfere.

When anybody is deploying they look at the deployment rules for the mission being played. This is normal deployment. You are advocating a special form of deployment with special limitations. That would not be normal, and thus breaks the RAW.

I would like to recommend that you form your argument based on what the relevant rules are as opposed to trying to twist the rules into supporting an argument you have already chosen.

Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

nosferatu1001 wrote:When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

For Flyers, the choice NOT to be placed in Reserves is made during Deployment. Normally there is no decision and their normal determination is to be deployed from Reserves even before deployment begins.

For everything else, this determination is made during deployment.

Now, please indicate the timing requirement in this introductory sentence to provide such context of "deploying normally" to be exclusive to deployment?

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Incorrect. The two options are Placed in Reserves or deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Period. If you believe otherwise, please indicate where in the rulebook or the Dark Talon rules it states otherwise.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Incorrect, because deploying from Reserves is normal for the Dark Talon. In order for it to be RAW, temporal context must be firmly established at the determination of deploying normally is stated. It is not. You are only assuming this because placing something in Reserves normally happens in deployment. No other time code is required after the "or". And deployment will probably not be the last time the Dark Talon is placed in Reserves, either. Should all the units then join the Dark Talon in Ongoing Reserves when it leaves the tabletop?

Happyjew wrote:Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

It says "deployed normally". Is there a time frame literally associated with this "deployed normally"? No, there is not. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. Just because you have a Flyer does not require all units to be in Reserves if you choose not to use Strike As One.

Remember all, deploying is not always done in deployment. Deploying is what happens when you Move On From Reserves as well as when placing units initially before the game begins.

 Happyjew wrote:
Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

The rule on 135 provides an example of deploying and what to do if that's not possible. However the word deploy isn't a rule it's a reference to a process. The description of that process allow reserving as part of the deployment process.

Deploying normally allows reserves. Nothing you have shown has disproved that when deploying you cant place units in reserve.

When deploying you look at the deployment rules for the mission being played, and deploy as instructed. This is normal, not being able to reserve is not normal (depending on mission rules). You are required to use the normal rules if you don't reserve everything.

 Charistoph] wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:When is the choice made, to be placed in reserves or to be deployed normally?

Please answer in less than 100 words.
(Note: fliers are placed in reserve at this point in time)

For Flyers, the choice NOT to be placed in Reserves is made during Deployment. Normally there is no decision and their normal determination is to be deployed from Reserves even before deployment begins.

For everything else, this determination is made during deployment.

Now, please indicate the timing requirement in this introductory sentence to provide such context of "deploying normally" to be exclusive to deployment?

the context is clear, because this is a GENERAL RULE for ALL UNITS in the formation.

When do ALL UNITS make the choice between being placed in reserve and being deployED normally?

During deployment

At no other time

None

Thus this is the only time during the game this rule is referring to. And, handily, Flyers are ALSO chosen to be Placed In reserves at this point.

Is there a reason you keep refusing to use the term Placed in Reserves? Is it becuase it undermines your point you are so utterly failing to support?

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:At that point you only have two options: deploy on the board, or be Placed in reserves. Just because that choice is made for flyers, doesn't mean they are somewhere other than option a - placed in reserve.

Incorrect. The two options are Placed in Reserves or deploy normally. Flyers normally deploy from Reserves. Period. If you believe otherwise, please indicate where in the rulebook or the Dark Talon rules it states otherwise.

incorrect. Flyers are PLACED IN RESERVE. This is a truism.

And it is deployED normally. At the point in time the choice is made, the flyers have yet to deploy. Thus they can only be option a - placed in reserve.

I have never stated they dont normally deploy from reserves;. I am stating that AT THIS POINT they are place in reserves, and AT THIS POINT all units must EITHER be placed in reserve OR all units must be deployED normally. Flyers are not deployED at this point, they have been placed in reserves

Because tthat is literally true. They are NOT deployed, therefore they are placed in Reserves. Because that is what rules on page 135 explicitly state. You are not deployed at this point. You are placed in reserves

Care to disagree with an actual rule yet? I notice you are lacking ANY rules support.

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

Not my assertion. My assertion is that the actual context for the rule tells you when "placed in reserves or deployed normallly" is referring to

the Deployment phase of the game

At that point NO flyer bar a SSLP flyer can be deployED, it can only be placed in Reserves

Can you at least agree to that fact? Trying to break down your error so you can see it...

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you place the dark talon in reserve, all other units must be placed in reserve. THAT is raw, proven over and over and over.

Incorrect, because deploying from Reserves is normal for the Dark Talon. In order for it to be RAW, temporal context must be firmly established at the determination of deploying normally is stated. It is not. You are only assuming this because placing something in Reserves normally happens in deployment. No other time code is required after the "or". And deployment will probably not be the last time the Dark Talon is placed in Reserves, either. Should all the units then join the Dark Talon in Ongoing Reserves when it leaves the tabletop?

Incorrect. At the time the choice is made, theyhave not deployED and therefore must be placed in reserve, as the rule states.

if they are placed in Reserve, then all other units in the formaiton must ALSO be placed in Reserve, as the rule statees

Temporal context is firmly establised, as there is ONE period, JUST ONE, where you place units in reserve OR they are deployed normally. That is deployment

You have absolutely no support, none whatsoever, to claim this context refers to any other period of time in the game. Your continued insistence otherwise, with NO rules support, NO contextual support whatsoever, and a blind repetition that you may only consider flyers as "deployed normally" when in fact at this point they are NOT deployed at all, as page 135 firmly states, is asinine.

This rule refers firmly to one single time period, and you know this to be true. So just admit your error gracefully, and we can move on.

Charistoph wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Trystis, yes being placed in reserves is part of deployment, but per the rules (pg 135), it is not deploying. It is done instead of deploying.

The rule says you must place all in reserves or deploy all normally. If you deploy some units and place some units in reserve, have you placed all units in reserve, or deployed all units?

It says "deployed normally". Is there a time frame literally associated with this "deployed normally"? No, there is not. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. Just because you have a Flyer does not require all units to be in Reserves if you choose not to use Strike As One.

There is a time frame when a choice is made between being Placed in reserves and being deployed normally, however. Every flyer passes this time frame and is Placed in Reserves, and every unit that deploys on the board before turn 1 also hits this time frame. Deployment. There is only ONE possible time that fits this context, and your insistence that this is not true, with no rules support at all, is either a wilful misreading of the rules, or dishonesty.

Charistoph wrote:Remember all, deploying is not always done in deployment. Deploying is what happens when you Move On From Reserves as well as when placing units initially before the game begins.

Remember, the rule does not care what happens later in the game. It only cares what happens during deployment

Remember, the rule is Strike as One, not Strike in as many pieces as Charistoph thinks correct on any given day

It's kinda funny watching Nosferatu's grammar devolve further and further with each post. One can only imagine how frustrated they must be; they've realized they are arguing a slippery slope, see no lifeline, and as a result simply lose of trace of respect for the other's in the thread and doesn't even bother to check their spelling....

rule 1, reported

What slippery slope am I arguing? Or this is another fallacy you know the name of, but dont understand what it actually means?

@nosferatu1001

I appreciate the work you placed in writing your wall of opinion. However, none of that demonstrates why the process I have described isn't normal.

I have demonstrated how the process you have described isn't normal.

RAW is that it must be normal, not your funky version of deployment.