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It would be greatly appreciated if everyone would conduct their rules discussions with regard for calm and polite language.

Trystis wrote:
@nosferatu1001

I appreciate the work you placed in writing your wall of opinion. However, none of that demonstrates why the process I have described isn't normal.

I have demonstrated how the process you have described isn't normal.

RAW is that it must be normal, not your funky version of deployment.

Not a wall of opinion. RAW

Your flyer is placed in reserve, and later on deploys

However at the point the rule is concerned, you must either place everything in reserve, or everything must be deployed normally. It is impossible for anon-hover flyer to be deployed normally during Deployment, as it must be placed in reserve. As such every unit in the formation must also be placed in reserve

This is RAW, based on the actual rules. Yoiu have presented no rules to back up your assertions, and thus to follow the tenets, mark your posts "HYWPI", as they are not the rules, just your houserule.

Strike as one does not require all units to be on the board, and it doesn't require that if some units are in reserve they all are. You are adding this. It is not in the rule. You can't really make things up and expect people to call it RAW, as that part that you made up isn't written...

It requires that they are deployed normally if that option is chosen. What you have described again is not being deployed as normal. You are creating a funky version of deployment with false restrictions. RAW is to use normal deployment If that options is chosen. Your argument relies on redefining normal in order to prevent reserves from being used.

I have shown that the option to reserve is available every time deployment is mentioned, and I have shown that strike as one offers the option for normal deployment. Normal deployment which includes being able to use reserves. When you eliminate reserves you are also preventing normal deployment. You would be breaking the rule.

I don't need to mark it as HYWPI, my stance actually uses the words provided in the rules with out adding or subtracting them as you have been doing, Also I don't play ravenwing so I don't really have a stake in this that would necessitate a house rule.

Actually the rule does state this. This is why the rule starts "every unit in this formation"

Every unit, not just some.

If you dont read the rule correctly, then you end up with the first sentence having absolutley no impact whatsoever; because at the end of dpeloyment units WILl either be in reserve or deployed. Thats just how a game works.

It stretches credulity to claim that a rule has no function, simply becuse you dont like the consequence of that function

Your argument is refuted, because it ignores the context of the rule, the reuqirement of the rule in question, and even ignores that one option is "placed in reserve", becuase by acknowledging that optoin it faltally undermines your argument re context

The context is clear, the rule is clear; if you take a flier, the entire formation MUST start in reserve alongside the flier. this Is RAW, plain and simple.

AND, even better - RAW matches the clear intenet.

strike as one

Not

strike in several pieces

EITHER every unit:
Is in reserves
OR
Is deployed normally.

Normal deployment allows reserves (depending on mission), so fliers could end up in reserve. No where does the rule require all units to be in reserve if one is. Requiring that would not be normal deployment.

My interpretation uses the words in the rules... I'm not adding anything to them I'm using the information they provide.
Yours attempts to infer additional meaning and requirements that are not actually part of the rule to support a failing argument. You can't infer things that aren't there and claim it as RAW.

The title of the rules is not relevant. Just like unit or weapon fluff. It maybe fun to read, but only phrasing of the rule matters.

I'd just like to thank you for your effort Trystis.. It's really quite annoying how Nosferatu claims that every one of his arguments is RAW - seriously dude, if RAW were that clear we wouldn't have a 4 page discussion.

Also stop using the name of the rule to infer intent. Strike as One could just as well be an optional tactic used by this strike force when appropriate, and sometimes they'll not use it and deploy normally.

The rule serves no purpose unless all units are deployed or all units are in reserve. Any other interpretation requires no rules whatsoever as that is deployment per the BRB. The word All is key here. Not part, All.

I have a question, for those that disagree with Nos, how would the rule need to be phrased for his interpretation to be correct? And Nos, for those that disagree with you, what would the rule state for them to be correct? For me to agree with Nos's detractors, the ENTIRE first section of Strike As One would be removed and the rule would just state that units in reserve arrive automatically from reserve on Turn 2. It would also have a different name, like Timely Arrival. If you want to split up the detachment, go ahead and put a nice black Sharpie line through the entire top portion of the rule and leave the second part in place. The rule serves no purpose unless All of the units do one thing or All of the units do the other. Period.

Trystis wrote:
EITHER every unit:
Is in reserves
OR
Is deployed normally.

Normal deployment allows reserves (depending on mission), so fliers could end up in reserve. No where does the rule require all units to be in reserve if one is. Requiring that would not be normal deployment.

My interpretation uses the words in the rules... I'm not adding anything to them I'm using the information they provide.
Yours attempts to infer additional meaning and requirements that are not actually part of the rule to support a failing argument. You can't infer things that aren't there and claim it as RAW.

The title of the rules is not relevant. Just like unit or weapon fluff. It maybe fun to read, but only phrasing of the rule matters.

I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:the context is clear, because this is a GENERAL RULE for ALL UNITS in the formation.

When do ALL UNITS make the choice between being placed in reserve and being deployED normally?

During deployment

At no other time

None

Thus this is the only time during the game this rule is referring to. And, handily, Flyers are ALSO chosen to be Placed In reserves at this point.

Is there a reason you keep refusing to use the term Placed in Reserves? Is it becuase it undermines your point you are so utterly failing to support?

Incorrect. The only time a determination for Flyers to be not placed in Reserves is if there is a Skyshield in the Deployment Zone. Otherwise, by default it starts deployment as Placed in Reserves waiting to be Deployed From Reserves. Drop Pods do not even have this as an option. They MUST deploy from Reserves.

If I am incorrect in this, please quote and reference the sentence that states otherwise.

I have not used "Placed in Reserves" because we are talking about how the unit is "deployed normally". And it is normal for a Flyer to be Deployed From Reserves. I thought that would be more obvious than your claim of context that "deployed normally" only refers to deployment.

nosferatu1001 wrote:incorrect. Flyers are PLACED IN RESERVE. This is a truism.

And it is deployED normally. At the point in time the choice is made, the flyers have yet to deploy. Thus they can only be option a - placed in reserve.

I have never stated they dont normally deploy from reserves;. I am stating that AT THIS POINT they are place in reserves, and AT THIS POINT all units must EITHER be placed in reserve OR all units must be deployED normally. Flyers are not deployED at this point, they have been placed in reserves

Because tthat is literally true. They are NOT deployed, therefore they are placed in Reserves. Because that is what rules on page 135 explicitly state. You are not deployed at this point. You are placed in reserves

Care to disagree with an actual rule yet? I notice you are lacking ANY rules support.

You have yet to provide an actual rule stating that this "deployed normally" only refers to deployment. You are operating on an assumption of time based on when things are normally placed in Reserves.

Guess what, deployment isn't the only time a unit is placed in Reserves. Read up on Ongoing Reserves, Deep Strike Mishap, and Flyer's rules on Leaving Combat Airspace, for more information. And that isn't worrying about other codex rules which may do other funky things with units and Reserves like the Eldar Swooping Hawks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Being placed in reserve is NOT being deployed. This was proven by page 135 unequivocally stating that you are placed in reserve when you do not deploy. Meaning at the end of the deployment phase, the choice you have made is to be placed in reserve instead of being deployed normally.

Correct, it is not being deployed. It is delaying the time for when it does deploy. Deploying from Reserves is normal for a Flyer. No statement is made in this rule that "deploying normally" is in deployment for all units, except for your assertion.

Not my assertion. My assertion is that the actual context for the rule tells you when "placed in reserves or deployed normallly" is referring to

the Deployment phase of the game

Yes, that is the assertion to which I speak. Why did you not understand this? What are the words that literally speak to "deployed normally" being 100% in deployment, especially with a few units in these Roles which are required to start in Reserves to be deployed later?

Your assertion is flawed by lack of written words to support the context you believe is in play.

Being in Reserves is not deployed. I have never stated otherwise. I have issue with your continued statement that "deployed normally" carries a temporal requirement of deployment without any other statements to provide such a context.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Incorrect. At the time the choice is made, theyhave not deployED and therefore must be placed in reserve, as the rule states.

The choice is made during army list development. And it really isn't much of a choice. You have to work to make anything else to be a choice with Flyers.

nosferatu1001 wrote:if they are placed in Reserve, then all other units in the formaiton must ALSO be placed in Reserve, as the rule statees

Incorrect. No time stamp is associated with "deployed normally". Deploying from Reserves is quite normal for a Flyer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Temporal context is firmly establised, as there is ONE period, JUST ONE, where you place units in reserve OR they are deployed normally. That is deployment

Flyers and Drop Pods are determined to be in Reserves in army list creation. This is not a time to be determining if Bikers are in Reserves. If a Flyer goes in to Ongoing Reserves, does that mean the entire detachment must also go in to Reserves, too? No. This context is only your assertion, nothing more.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have absolutely no support, none whatsoever, to claim this context refers to any other period of time in the game. Your continued insistence otherwise, with NO rules support, NO contextual support whatsoever, and a blind repetition that you may only consider flyers as "deployed normally" when in fact at this point they are NOT deployed at all, as page 135 firmly states, is asinine.

This rule refers firmly to one single time period, and you know this to be true. So just admit your error gracefully, and we can move on.

Without a written statement, I do not know your assertion regarding this time frame to be true. So far, I only see it as a fabrication in your mind. At which point, I am trying to prove a negative. How can I provide any other support of "it is not there" when it is not there?

The only other thing I can say is, it is normal for a bike to be deployed during deployment and it is normal for a Flyer to be deployed from Reserves. Anything else would not be normal, so not fulfilling the direction for the unit to be "deployed normally."

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is a time frame when a choice is made between being Placed in reserves and being deployed normally, however. Every flyer passes this time frame and is Placed in Reserves, and every unit that deploys on the board before turn 1 also hits this time frame. Deployment. There is only ONE possible time that fits this context, and your insistence that this is not true, with no rules support at all, is either a wilful misreading of the rules, or dishonesty.

Incorrect that this decision requires all to be "deployed normally" all at the same time. No temporal reference is given as a requirement which means it is note a Written Rule, therefore only your assertion.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember, the rule does not care what happens later in the game. It only cares what happens during deployment

Quote it then. You have as yet to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Remember, the rule is Strike as One, not Strike in as many pieces as Charistoph thinks correct on any given day

Remember, the name of a rule has no bearing on its reality.

Remember, that this rule is optional with "or" and "if" statements associated with it, not a requirement.

casvalremdeikun wrote:The rule serves no purpose unless all units are deployed or all units are in reserve. Any other interpretation requires no rules whatsoever as that is deployment per the BRB. The word All is key here. Not part, All.

Incorrect. The rule serves no purpose unless all units are in Reserves. Automatically arriving from Reserves on Turn 2 is impossible if any or all units are on the table.

casvalremdeikun wrote:I have a question, for those that disagree with Nos, how would the rule need to be phrased for his interpretation to be correct? And Nos, for those that disagree with you, what would the rule state for them to be correct? For me to agree with Nos's detractors, the ENTIRE first section of Strike As One would be removed and the rule would just state that units in reserve arrive automatically from reserve on Turn 2. It would also have a different name, like Timely Arrival. If you want to split up the detachment, go ahead and put a nice black Sharpie line through the entire top portion of the rule and leave the second part in place. The rule serves no purpose unless All of the units do one thing or All of the units do the other. Period.

As already stated: a timeframe of deployment for "deployed normally" must be established within the rule itself in order for his interpretation to be correct. Alternatively, an indication that they must all be deployed or all in Reserves when the game begins would also apply. Neither is the case, though, much less anything that Nos has provided.

If the first sentence is removed, then any unit put in Reserves, regardless of what has been deployed during deployment, would be able to arrive on Turn 2. The stipulation that all must be in Reserves is to activate the second sentence which starts "If in Reserves..."

But again also is the simple fact that Deploying From Reserves is deploying normally for a Flyer.

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

Except the fliers are placed in reserve. So you are saying they fulfil both criteria

Oh, and they're not deployed normally. At the time the rule is invoked, they are not deployed at all. Instead they are placed in reserves

Fragile - exactly. It's all or nothing. If you butcher the rule as others have done, then the first line - which gives a restriction - doesn't function as a restriction. It in fact has no function at all.

It can be entirely omitted and nothing, under the butchered interpretation, changes.

Chrisatoph - ignored. You don't support with rules, so should not participate in the discussion here.


However you still failed to answer the question

When, precisely, do we determine if a flier is placed in reserve? When do we determine if it can be deployed normally? Is this, by any chance, at one point and one point only? And will you , yet again, duck this?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except the fliers are placed in reserve. So you are saying they fulfil both criteria

Oh, and they're not deployed normally. At the time the rule is invoked, they are not deployed at all. Instead they are placed in reserves

Specifically quote the section that states when "at the time is invoked", and that "deployed normally" excludes situations where "deployed later" is a problem. So far, I have not seen anything related to "when" or "during" or any other synonym quoted for this rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fragile - exactly. It's all or nothing. If you butcher the rule as others have done, then the first line - which gives a restriction - doesn't function as a restriction. It in fact has no function at all.

It can be entirely omitted and nothing, under the butchered interpretation, changes.

All or nothing is not a condition of this rule, it is all in Reserves or "normally". Your attempt to redefine the timing of normally to be outside a unit's normal has yet to be properly substantiated in the written form, or at least, what you have quoted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Chrisatoph - ignored. You don't support with rules, so should not participate in the discussion here.

And should I then report you as you have reported others? I have supported with rules references, you support only with assumptions, and now accusations.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However you still failed to answer the question

When, precisely, do we determine if a flier is placed in reserve? When do we determine if it can be deployed normally? Is this, by any chance, at one point and one point only? And will you , yet again, duck this?

I have answered this several times, did you not see it, or did you choose to skip over it in your choler? A Flyer is automatically determined to be in Reserves in deployment when deployment begins, unless a Skyshield is present in the deployment zone. This is a requirement of the unit type and in place as soon as the army list is established. It then deploys normally when its time comes up according to its Reserves roll determination.

So at deployment, when units are placed in reserves, the flyer satisfied "placed in reserves"

Other units either also satisfy "placed in reserve" , or you have not complied with the rule requiring all or nothing. Either all units are placed in reserve (flyer is here, right now, impossible to deny) or none are

You CANNOT deny that the flyer is placed in Reserve.you just avoid saying it, because it undermines your argument, and you know it.

At deployment, the flyer is placed in reserve. Yes?


I have reported those breaking rule one. My rules citations are all on pages one and two, since then you have said nothing that even comes close to denying them

Just a refusal to acknowledge context, and some e false dichotomy. It's not accusation, it's factual.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Other units either also satisfy "placed in reserve" , or you have not complied with the rule requiring all or nothing. Either all units are placed in reserve (flyer is here, right now, impossible to deny) or none are

Where does it state that none can be placed in Reserves? I see only "deployed normally". This assertion that it is "all in Reserves or none are" is an assumption only and does not match the language involved with this sentence, especially considering a detachment whose most common Roles include Flyers and Drop Pods.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You CANNOT deny that the flyer is placed in Reserve.you just avoid saying it, because it undermines your argument, and you know it.

At deployment, the flyer is placed in reserve. Yes?

That has not been my problem. YOUR problem is that you think a Flyer being placed in Reserves to be deployed later is not "deployed normally". You have presented nothing to counter this, either with a quote regarding time nor with Flyer rules. This, along with the reasons posted above, as well as this being an optional rule, are reasons why your assertion regarding this rule have no weight.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have reported those breaking rule one. My rules citations are all on pages one and two, since then you have said nothing that even comes close to denying them

Then you are being overly thin skinned. You were challenged and you reported. You could have been nicer and just warned.

You claim I am not using the rules. When all I have been doing is using the rules and their actual language.

I asked you to support your claims with the rules, and you have repeatedly refused, only going by one sentence which does not carry the language or specific context required to support your assertion. You have failed to follow the tenets of this forum in providing rules to support your claim, but instead accuse others in an effort to bully them to accept it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Just a refusal to acknowledge context, and some e false dichotomy. It's not accusation, it's factual.

I have stated plenty of things which have countered what you have stated, largely because what you have quoted does not state what you assert. Your presumed context cannot be applied because it does not exist. No sense of time is associated with the first sentence of this rule, period, much less when "deployed normally" is made. If the rule was "During deployment, you must..." or "...deployed normally before the game begins" or "When you are determining Reserves...", you would have a case. However, no words associating the "deployed normally" with any period of time are mentioned in this sentence or later on this rule. Since this is the first sentence of the rule, there is no previously established case of time to provide any specific temporal context. Any assumption that "deployed normally" is when you make the determination of Reserves is only in your own mind, and not in this sentence.

To be complete, your "context" is crap because there is nothing to provide the context that all units must be deployed in deployment or before the game begins. All this sentence states is that when they are not all placed in Reserves, they must be "deployed normally". "Deployed normally" by itself does not exclude units which are required to be in Reserves before deployment begins from being in Reserves when the rest are "deployed normally" on the tabletop, nor does it require all be in Reserves if any are in Reserves. The wording is awkward and could have been done better, especially if it was meant to be "all in Reserves or all on the tabletop" for when the game begins. Especially when the exact same codex has several detachments which do not provide the choice and require all to be in Reserves.

Charistoph, if you place some units in Reserve and deploy some units, did you place all units in reserve, or did you deploy all units, or did you do neither?

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

Happy - but wait, that won't matter, because "hand waves"

Chrisastoph - the first sentence requires that

All units are placed in reserve

OR

all units are deployed normally

A flyer (barring the usual limitations) MUST be placed in reserve. This is indisputable

So if you have a flyer in reserve, and a unit of bikes on the board, are:

A) all units placed in reserve?
Or
B) all units deployed normally?

If you cannot answer a or b, you have not complied with the rule

No, I have cited more than one rule. the strike.. Rule plus the rules on page 135, plus the rules governing deployment.

All of which precisely place this rules activation, as there is only one point where this either situation can occur.

No matter how often you claim otherwise, your argument is baseless.

Fragile wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Fragile wrote:I have not read the actual rule, but if the OP is correct in his posting, then its an all or nothing. All in reserve or All deployed.

Actually it is all "deployed normally", and it is the "normally" that is causing the problem.

""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

You keep leaving out two words in the choice you are given, so I took the liberty of bolding and underlining them for you. "as normal" changes the entire context of the rule.

Happyjew wrote:Charistoph, if you place some units in Reserve and deploy some units, did you place all units in reserve, or did you deploy all units, or did you do neither?

You are implying a temporal requirement that this rule does not provide. Can you demonstrate where "deploy as normal" or " deploy normally" means "all right here, right now" within this rule or what it is referencing?

Fragile wrote:""all of the units in this detachment must either be placed in Reserve or Deployed as Normal""

If this quote is correct from the rules, then its all or nothing. All in reserve or all deployed. Thats how the sentence parses.

If that is just a paraphase.. then someone post the rule.

No, it is not all or nothing. If a time frame was established for this, such as "deployed as normal during deployment", you would be correct. Any concept of applying a time period for deploying as normal, though, is not established, much less altering what would be normal for a specific unit type or unit's special rules.

It is simply "all or normal" without redefining "normal".

nosferatu1001 wrote:Happy - but wait, that won't matter, because "hand waves"

Chrisastoph - the first sentence requires that

All units are placed in reserve

OR

all units are deployed normally

A flyer (barring the usual limitations) MUST be placed in reserve. This is indisputable

So if you have a flyer in reserve, and a unit of bikes on the board, are:

A) all units placed in reserve?
Or
B) all units deployed normally?

If you cannot answer a or b, you have not complied with the rule.

The answer is b. But you did not define a point in time we are to check any more than Strike As One does.

The problem is that you are assigning a deadline that is not stated. Where in this rule is "deployed normally" associated within a time frame? Deployment is never mentioned. Before the game begins is never mentioned. Not in Reserves is never stated. "When" is never used in this sentence.

In short, "deployed as normal" has no context for "deployed right now", especially when " deployed as normal" is "Deployed from Reserves after the game begins".

No, I have cited more than one rule. the strike.. Rule plus the rules on page 135, plus the rules governing deployment.

Only after they were pointed out to you, but also you are using them to try and apply a context which is never referred to in this qualifying sentence. You are misrepresenting the rules.

All of which precisely place this rules activation, as there is only one point where this either situation can occur.

You are making this part up. First, the "deploy as normal" is never associated with when you are determining Reserves. Second, this sentence is setting up the conditions for when the rule does activate, which is at the beginning of the player's Turn 2.

No matter how often you claim otherwise, your argument is baseless.

[Sarcasm] Yes, I have no basis for stating that a sentence which has no temporal reference is not associated with a specific point of time. Nor do I have basis for stating that deploying as normal does not exclude being put in Reserves by a unit's own rules without a specific point of time being referenced for that deploying. Nor do I have a basis for stating that deploying as nor mal does not exclude deploying from Reserves without another timeframe of deploying be established.[/sarcasm]

Until you can quote the rule and highlight key words which define when "deploy as normal" is to be accomplished, you have nothing to support your case.

Until then "deploy as normal" continues the premise that this Detachment can be deployed as if it did not have this rule, and it would have just as much use for Strike As One when "deployed normally" as if it did not have the rule.

P.S. For your temporal context, if a rule stated that the unit must Run or Charge, would you be assuming you can Charge in the Shooting Phase or Run in the Assault Phase? Because that is how you are presenting it.

P.P.S.: Here is the rule:

Codex: Dark Angels wrote:Strike as One: All of the units in this Detachment must either be placed in Reserve or deployed as normal. If placed in Reserve, all units in this Detachment automatically arrive at the start of your second turn.

Some people seem to be arguing that being placed in reserves is part of being deployed "normally."

Did anyone bother to check how the rules for Reserves are worded or are they just working off what's said in the Deployment section?

pg 135, Preparing Reserves

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

(Emphasis my own.)

It literally says keeping something in reserves is choosing "not to deploy" them. Stands to reason "deploying normally," if you really want to get hung up on that phrasing, means they need to be on the table. The Flyers rule specifically states flyers must begin the games in reserve unless otherwise specifically stated, which the Strike As One rule does not specifically grant.

For all the people saying "Well then you can't use the detachment on it's own with flyers and not automatically lose," I believe that's a correct interpretation of the rules.

Taking my objective hat off for a second, the rule for it and the Deathwing Strike Force are a mess. Find a way to house rule it, or better yet bring some allied formation within the book or allied Combined Arms detachment. Treat it like a Lion's Blade Strike Force or any other Strike Force, in that the main body of the force has some auxiliary detachment with it. The Ravenwing Support Squadron or Ravenwing Attack Squadron are fairly good alongside a Ravenwing Strike Force for turn 1 shooting/hiding, or you could bring two squads of scouts and a Librarian as a CAD to sit on some objectives.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Some people seem to be arguing that being placed in reserves is part of being deployed "normally."

Did anyone bother to check how the rules for Reserves are worded or are they just working off what's said in the Deployment section?

pg 135, Preparing Reserves

"When deploying their armies, players can choose not to deploy some of their units, keeping them as Reserves to arrive later."

(Emphasis my own.)

It literally says keeping something in reserves is choosing "not to deploy" them. Stands to reason "deploying normally," if you really want to get hung up on that phrasing, means they need to be on the table. The Flyers rule specifically states flyers must begin the games in reserve unless otherwise specifically stated, which the Strike As One rule does not specifically grant.

Yes, it has been brought up and addressed. However, two points to remember:
1) Arriving From Reserves states:

When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.

Deep Strike states:

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:
...
...
Models deploying via Deep Strike treat all difficult terrain as dangerous terrain.

Outflank states:

When an Outflanking unit arrives from Reserves, but not Ongoing Reserve..., the player can choose left or right. Models move onto the table as described for other Reserves. If such a unit deploys inside a Dedicated Transport, they may Outflank along with their Transport.

Therefore, Arriving From Reserves IS deploying. And as Flyers have the rule:

Flyers must begin the game as Reserves. Special rules that allow an owning player to move one or more of their units out of Reserves after deployment but before the game begins (for example the C’tan Shard power ‘Grand Illusion’) cannot be used to move a Flyer out of Reserves unless they specifically state that Flyers can start the game deployed on the table (such as a Skyshield Landing Pad’s ‘Ready for Takeoff’ rule).

this means that deploying from Reserves is perfectly normal and standard practice.

But why is this relevant to what we are discussing? On to point two.

2) For the same reason I have stated in almost every post, the "deployed as normal" phrase is not contingent on being applied to deployment, by the game begins, or any other point to which being in Reserves at any point for individual units is not allowed. The starting sentence for this rule is all in Reserves or normal condition. It is normal for a number of units from a detachment to be in Reserves and deploy from there, especially in the case of Flyers and Drop Pods where they are required to.

The situation you described, SRSFace, is based on the conditions that apply during deployment, and if Strike As One mentioned anything about the game starting or when determining Reserves, or deployment, your assessment would be correct. In fact, that is the stance that HappyJew and Nosferatu have taken for that exact reason. Also, in almost every other case of rules like this, such a time reference of some kind can actually be found.

However, Strike As One carries no such stipulation nor references to any time associated with "deployed as normal". The only time referenced in this rule is when it directs the detachment to automatically come in on the player's second turn.

But with no timestamp associated with the term "deployed" and "as normal" applied to it, it allows the detachment to have its disposition at the beginning of the game be the same as a Combined Arms Detachment, since that is "deploying as normal". The detachment would also gain as much benefit out of Strike As One as a Combined Arms Detachment if it was "deployed as normal", but that is a strategic consideration, not a rules consideration.

The ability to auto-lose on Turn 1 as a result is not taken in to consideration with this assessment, as that is a strategic consideration, not a rules consideration.

Every single thing you quoted defeats your own argument. They all use the term deployment to mean existing on the game board.

Therefore, deploying normally is not being placed in reserves. We're given an either/or statement. "All of the units in this detachment must either/or." Also note the "all" part comes before the options, so both options must still contain the subset of "all."

It says "deployed," which you've demonstrated means to be in the game state. (Thanks for all those quotes so I don't have to dig them up, by the way.) Placing something in reserves is not deployment, and if all models in the detachment must deploy or be in reserves, they either all start on the table (deployed) or all start in reserves.

Either the word "deployed" means something, or it does not. If it does not, the entire game of Warhammer 40k is not playable within it's own rulebook.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Every single thing you quoted defeats your own argument. They all use the term deployment to mean existing on the game board.

Incorrect. Deployment is part of setup. Deploy is placing on the game board.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Therefore, deploying normally is not being placed in reserves. We're given an either/or statement. "All of the units in this detachment must either/or." Also note the "all" part comes before the options, so both options must still contain the subset of "all."

Only if you are looking at it from the perspective of a time frame of the game's start or deployment. If you are reviewing it across an entire game, this is no longer true. Strike As One provides no requirement of looking at it exclusively from the time frame of deployment or game start.

 SRSFACE wrote:
It says "deployed," which you've demonstrated means to be in the game state. (Thanks for all those quotes so I don't have to dig them up, by the way.) Placing something in reserves is not deployment, and if all models in the detachment must deploy or be in reserves, they either all start on the table (deployed) or all start in reserves.

Either the word "deployed" means something, or it does not. If it does not, the entire game of Warhammer 40k is not playable within it's own rulebook.

It means something. It means to be placed on the game board to act upon it, such as Move, Shoot, and Charge.

This meaning is just not tied to a specific time frame, though.

You deploy units during deployment before the game. You also deploy units throughout the game from Reserves as their case comes up, as I pointed out above.

Deploying from Reserves is a perfectly normal activity over the duration of the game. The only time it is NOT normal is when you are in deployment and before any actions are taken when the game begins.

Where does Strike As One specify this timeframe or perspective?

The rule doesn't say "deployment" as normal. It says "deployed" as normal. We're not talking about Deployment, as in the phase and concept talked about on page 132. We're talking about being deployed. So, again, you've defeated your own line of thinking by providing your line of thinking.

I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.

For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."

If you're that entrenched in your views, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the intention utilizing the context of the wording of the Strike As One rule and everything I can find about what the word "deploy" means in 40k.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.

For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."

The word "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that it means before the game or during the game, nor does it actually place any restrictions. A flier "deployed as normal" comes on the board later, using the reserves rule. That this is normal for the flier isn't really debatable.

There are lots of ways rules could be phrased, for example for the rule to work the way you are suggesting it should say something like "deployed completely before the first turn" or " deployed with no units in reserve". Hypothetical rule phrases unfortunately don't help resolve the issue at hand, at least in this case.

Trystis wrote:

The word "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that it means before the game or during the game, nor does it actually place any restrictions.

When your argument is essentially "It wouldn't matter if this rule was even printed because it doesn't really mean anything," you've lost me and I'm inherently against that line of thinking in a rules-based game.

I also don't see how the either/or statement of the rule doesn't imply you have to do either/or of the things listed.

I never said "it wouldn't matter if this rule was printed..." I said it's not printed. Rules that aren't printed are not rules. You have decided that deployed only means before the game. There is no indication in the rule that this is the case. You are assuming it, which might be ok if it didn't also state "as normal".

As far as the either/or section, it means you have to choose one of the options. Not both. I can either place all of the units in reserve and benefit from them coming in automatically at turn 2, or they can be deployed normally. The rule does give an either/or choice, but when you choose to deploy normally it does not state that you can't have reserves if that's normal for the unit/mission.

If I tell you to that your flier will be "deployed as normal" during your next game does that mean something different from every other game happens?

I meant that you're arguing it doesn't matter the "Strike As One" rule got printed. You're saying the entire first line of the rule might as well not exist because it's wording means nothing, and I just don't agree with that line of thinking ever. It was printed for a reason.

Also, if you told me something would be "deployed as normal" in some other context, it'd depend. If you were saying it verbally, I'd get what you meant. If it was a rules question, I'd ask if you meant "deployed or held in reserves?" Because we've previously established being in reserves is not being deployed.

The thing about context is that it's contextual. Go figure.

The rule doesn't say I "deploy or enter reserves" as normal. Deployed means exists on the gamestate, and it's not giving me the specific option to choose to do this at a later state in the game. The lack of time sensitive words hurts your viewpoint, not helps it. We're not given permission to hold any units in reserve unless all are held in reserves. 40k is a permissive ruleset.

I'm definitely not ignoring the entire first line. I have explained why it supports my argument many times previously. Unless you are speaking of the rule title. If that's the case it's fluff... Fluff is not used in rule interpretations. However, even I did consider it part of the rule (which is not not usually done and makes makes your argument look like its RAI, not RAW) I would remind you that it provides the option to strikes as one, not forces it. If they wanted to always be used they could of easily left out the other option, like deathwing's deployment rules.

Fliers are automatically placed in reserves and subsequently deployed form there. No special permission required as this is how they normally deploy. In fact it requires special permission for them to enter any other way.

The rule states "deployed as normal" and does not require that all units are if one is. When units are "deployed as normal" there may be some, like the flier, still in reserve. The flier will be deployed as they normally are later.

I don't agree with you on context either. Context is subjective allowing for vastly different interpretations. It's handy for when you don't know the definition of a word, but it's not a substitute for a dictionary. Trying to justify your argument with it also makes it look like you are arguing what the RAI is. If you use what the rule actual states objectively you get a much more precise understanding, and is needed for it to RAW.

Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b

You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally

Meaning you broke the rule

Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.

OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error

The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.

The rule doesn't state that they need to be deployed at the the same time. It states they need to deployed normally. Deployment is an ongoing process not just a phase. No rules were broken.

As you Christoph pointed out if keep reading the reserve rule you quote you find:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.”

When reserves arrive they are deployed. This is how fliers are deployed normally, your requirement is not stated in the rule, and is not normal deployment.