Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 12:13:56
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Using Inks and Washes
St. George, Utah
|
Trystis wrote:I'm definitely not ignoring the entire first line. I have explained why it supports my argument many times previously. Unless you are speaking of the rule title. If that's the case it's fluff... Fluff is not used in rule interpretations. However, even I did consider it part of the rule (which is not not usually done and makes makes your argument look like its RAI, not RAW) I would remind you that it provides the option to strikes as one, not forces it. If they wanted to always be used they could of easily left out the other option, like deathwing's deployment rules.
Fliers are automatically placed in reserves and subsequently deployed form there. No special permission required as this is how they normally deploy. In fact it requires special permission for them to enter any other way.
The rule states "deployed as normal" and does not require that all units are if one is. When units are "deployed as normal" there may be some, like the flier, still in reserve. The flier will be deployed as they normally are later.
I don't agree with you on context either. Context is subjective allowing for vastly different interpretations. It's handy for when you don't know the definition of a word, but it's not a substitute for a dictionary. Trying to justify your argument with it also makes it look like you are arguing what the RAI is. If you use what the rule actual states objectively you get a much more precise understanding, and is needed for it to RAW.
You quite literally made the argument that "deployed" doesn't provide any indication that the unit has to be deployed. You literally made that argument.
And now you're literally making the argument that being in reserves is being deployed, despite heaping gobs of rules explaining being deployed means existing on the game board.
And now you're also literally making the argument a rule that says "All units must" does not apply to all units.
I cannot fathom how you can interpret a rule saying you have to deploy something as meaning you don't have to deploy it. The word "normally" is giving you that much of a fit? Jesus Christ, dude.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 12:41:26
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Actually I literally made the argument that deployment is a process that occurs through out the game as you can see in the reserve rule if you keep reading it. It does have to be deployed, but nothing requires that it has to be deployed before turn 1.
As Christoph pointed out many examples of how deploying goes on through out the game, and is not limited to the pregame.
For example:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table"
That is the process for how all reserves including fliers are deployed. I never said that being in reserves is deployed, I'm saying that it's deployed when it comes out of reserve on to the table as you see in the rule quoted above.
I'm absolutely saying that a rule that states "all units must" be "deployed normally" means that all units need to deployed. A flier being deployed normally comes in from reserves. This is in the rules, I'm not making it up. You can read it if you would like.
I actually don't have a clue how you interpret what I said as anything not being needing to be deployed.
It seems like it would be better to spend more time, if you have it, reading what Christoph and I have written as opposed responding so emotionally.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 12:41:42
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Trystis wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b
You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally
Meaning you broke the rule
Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.
OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error
The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.
The rule doesn't state that they need to be deployed at the the same time. It states they need to deployed normally. Deployment is an ongoing process not just a phase. No rules were broken.
As you Christoph pointed out if keep reading the reserve rule you quote you find:
“When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving it onto the table as described below. Then pick another arriving unit and deploy it, and so on until all arriving units are on the table.”
When reserves arrive they are deployed. This is how fliers are deployed normally, your requirement is not stated in the rule, and is not normal deployment.
The context of the rule absolutely places the requirement that, during Deployment (the time period, not an ongoing process, the actual bit in the rules named Deployment) they must ALL either
be placed in reserves
OR
be deployED normally
At Deployment, you have not complied with this rule
Rule broken, meaning you cheated.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 12:58:57
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Context is subjective. For instance with this example I see the context in a completely different light than you. I see the context of the rule as providing an option for normal deployment or the ability to deploy completely from reserve at turn two.
The context you are using doesn't disprove the rules as stated. At best it may show RAI in some cases, and it doesn't even do that in this case.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/18 12:59:29
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 13:03:33
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
The rule in sentence one, under your interpretation, has no meaning. AS it places a restrictioni you are claiming to be totally able to circumvent To do as you described you can entirely omit this sentence I rend to believe that when the rules writers write a rule, that it has some purpose. And, in this case, it does do if you do not twist the rules to fit some imagined other purpose You dont know RAI (I actually do, as i know two of the studio rules writers, but that isnt really relevant here, no am I relying on it - however they both found it amusing that a rule written "Strike as One" can be read as if it can mean "Strike in 2 parts, not one, when you want to", but I digress) - and, in fact, the very title of the rule belies your attempt at "RAI" claims. You are taking the more complicated route You are doing so by ignoring the written rule, the rules on page 135 AND the context the rule is written in - which precisely fixes the time period to the ONE POINT IN THE GAME where this choice is made, WITHOUT question - to come up with something that results in the rule having no function AND you are ignoring the name of the rule to give you a clue as to the intent. Strike as one. Not strike in as many pieces as you like, because I dont like the restriction the rule places on me You have no fuunctional argument. RAW is proven.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/18 13:47:09
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/18 15:52:41
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
SRSFACE wrote:The rule doesn't say "deployment" as normal. It says "deployed" as normal. We're not talking about Deployment, as in the phase and concept talked about on page 132. We're talking about being deployed. So, again, you've defeated your own line of thinking by providing your line of thinking.
I know the rule doesn't say "deployment", that is my point. "Deployment" is a period of time during game setup. "Deploy" is the action of placing a unit on the board. Since Arriving From Reserves have the units "deploy", it is safe to say that "deployed" is not dependent on being a game start state.
SRSFACE wrote:I contend being "deployed as normal" means being deployed. Not existing in a game state that eventually gets deployed, but actively being deployed. You keep talking about timeframe; we're never told we're allowed to be in a gamestate other than being entirely in reserves or being entirely deployed.
That is because when a unit Arrives From Reserves, it is deployed. When you can have the same event happen in multiple time frames, a requirement of just "deployed" would not a time frame to apply the past tense from. Where is the time stamp reference for the first sentence of Strike As One?
SRSFACE wrote:For the rule to work the way you are claiming, it should say "Instead of using the normal rules for deployment, you may choose to place this entire detachment in reserve. If you do so, all units in this detachment arrive at the start of your second turn."
Not necessarily. The first sentence is establishing a context for the following sentence. You make a choice of "All In" or "Normal", if "All In", you get a benefit for what is in Reserves from this detachment. I did mention it could have been written better, but it is not an "all or nothing" as some contend. Not with a "normal" classification and zero time reference.
SRSFACE wrote:If you're that entrenched in your views, we're going to have to agree to disagree. I can see where you're coming from, but I don't think that's the intention utilizing the context of the wording of the Strike As One rule and everything I can find about what the word "deploy" means in 40k.
Then you are ignoring the numerous cases of "deploy" that happen after deployment and the game begins.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Christoph - no, the answer is neither a nor b
Incorrect. It is b. You did not give a time reference for when "deployed" was to be accomplished, same as Strike As One. No time reference means that I am not required to look at one specific point of time to fulfill it by. So, yes, a unit can be in Reserves and then be deployed as normal when it is required to start in Reserves. It may be Turn 4, but "deployed" will happen.
nosferatu1001 wrote:You see, when you plced your flyer in reserves, it was a unit placed in reserves. Yes, youc an claim, wrongly, that it was "deployed normally" - despite it not being deployED at all, at this point - but NO MATTER WHAT, even your own argument leaves you with SOME untis palced in reserve, and SOME deployED normally
Meaning you broke the rule
Actually, I am saying that at some point it will be "deployed as normal" from Reserves. If the Flyer Arrives From Reserves on Turn 3, it will be deployed, and this is normal for a Flyer. Nothing in Strike As One requires the status of "deployed" be accomplished by game start. I have broken nothing. And you keep being unable to provide a proper reference point when "deployed" is to be accomplished by.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Your argument remains refuted, because you insist on ignoring the plain rules.
I have ignored nothing but your assertion that "deployed" is a status that can only exist at game start because it is in error. This is something that you have ignored.
nosferatu1001 wrote:OH, and dont lie. I posted the reference to page 135 before you were even involved. Page 1. Check it out, it might help your understanding of your error
I stand corrected on the timing, however, you still are misrepresenting the case. "Deployed" is a state that can be accomplished as much on Turn 4 as in deployment. Can you prove otherwise?
nosferatu1001 wrote:The context is clear. Keep denying that black is black all you like.
What context? No context of when "deployed" is to have occurred is stated in this rule, so zero context to support your statement.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/18 15:55:12
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 10:56:58
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?
It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 11:25:01
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?
It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.
No special allowance in the rule is needed because units can be deployed throughout the game, per the reserve rule. It would have to specify if it was otherwise, and it doesn't. There is nothing in the rule that requires everything be deployed during the initial deployment, and without that restriction you would be able to have deployed units throughout the game.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 11:28:50
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
You break the rule at deployment, as not every unit is either placed in reserve or deployed on the table. That is a fact.
At deployment you have some in reserve, some deployed. So you have not complied with the rule.
Cite permission to break the rule at deployment, because it's going to be OK later on?
Oh,mane context still absolutely places this rule at deployment. I'm just showing, yet again, how you can be bull headed about context and it not matter. Because you don't comply at deployment, and have no permission to break the rule at deployment because you think you may fulfil it later
So that's at least three issues with the "strike in two pieces " argument. Zero have been addressed so far, so that's 3-0 to the side that can read rules...
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 11:40:08
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Quote the rule that requires that requires all units to be deployed during deployment? It doesn't state that every unit has to be either in reserves or deployed at deployment. You are adding that to support an argument that isnt backed by existing text.
My interpretation brakes zero rules, and relies solely on the rules.
Yours invents one, relies on context that is frankly irrelevant and disputable, and fluff which is also irrelevant and is disputable. None of this proves you are correct, it just proves you can't support your argument with actual rules, but are so desperate to win that you will twist any piece of related text to the point of breaking.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/20 11:40:56
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 11:46:32
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
I never state that as a requirement, and have never contended that either.
The first sentence of the rule does require that every unit is either placed in reserve or deployed. So at deployment, which is the contact, if some units are placed in reserve and some are not, you have not complied with the rule.
My argument does not rely on the title of the rule. I just find it amusing that you will twist the rules so that the clearly stated intent of the rule is breached. It's just amusing that you will go so such lengths
The actual writers of the rules find it amusing as well.
You have no permission to,break the rule during deployment just because you may be able to comply later on
Cite your permission or concede. Simple choice.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 11:50:49
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Quote the rule and specifically point out where it requires every unit is required to be in reserves or deployed only during deployment.
I'm glad they think it's amusing, maybe it will get the to wright their rules less poorly in the future.
I don't need to cite a permission because it has already been granted by the reserves rule and hasn't been restricted by the strike as one rule.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 11:52:04
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 12:00:24
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
"Write"
The first sentence. Subject is "all of the units" as a collective entity. You can't split this. So during deployment your contention is that you can break this rule, but lack permission to do so.
The reserves rule does not specifically override this RESTRICTION given in the first sentence.
In fact under your interpretation the first line has no function, as the only function it has when read as written is to restrict you to either deploying or going into reserves
Three different ways in which your reading of the rule must be wrong, and you counter not a single one of them, yet claim you're correct. Impressive.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 12:08:17
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
It's really funny for you too point out a spelling error. You should focus on edit your own posts rather than others.
"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 12:34:04
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 12:43:03
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Trystis wrote:
"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.
By this logic, you could place half your army in reserve, and put the rest on the table, claiming that they'll go into Ongoing Reserves at some point later in the game... And this would count as 'all' of your units being in reserve.
Your interpretation makes the stipulation that everyone do the same thing meaningless.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 12:43:45
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 13:46:02
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
insaniak wrote:Trystis wrote:
"All of the units" are being "deployed as normal" so that doesn't restrict it. Deployed as normal doesn't mean all at the same time. So there is no restriction to override, just normal rules to use.
By this logic, you could place half your army in reserve, and put the rest on the table, claiming that they'll go into Ongoing Reserves at some point later in the game... And this would count as 'all' of your units being in reserve.
Your interpretation makes the stipulation that everyone do the same thing meaningless.
You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.
“If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves” pg 597 iBook
At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.
There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing. It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start. However, the rule actually lacks that stipulation.
The "all of the units" clause doesn't restrict units from being deployed from reserves, at least for fliers for whom this is Normal. I think it's more illogical to restrict something that is normal when the rule specifies to do it as normal. Implying that it's all in reserves, or all on the board before turn one is a false dichotomy.
|
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/03/20 13:51:08
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 16:29:03
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator
|
Reserves are units waiting to be deployed.
They are deployed normally from turn 2+.
All of the units must be placed in reserves or deployed normally.
Sounds like all or nothing to me. Automatically Appended Next Post: Are we now saying it doesent state the effect on turn 1?
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 16:30:56
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 16:47:26
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
Trystis - so you stil make the claim that the first rule has no effect then?
Just to be clear, you think that GW wrote a rule with no function?
The "all if the units" are a single object. This single item can exist in only one place - reserves or deployed. You have no permission to split them up, as the rule restricts you to one single location.
Keep insisting there is no restriction there - and that the rule does nothing - you just remain incorrect.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 16:48:56
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 22:37:48
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Trystis wrote:
You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.
It's not. As per the rule you quoted, 'Ongoing Reserves' is just what we call it when something goes into Reserves after the game starts.
At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.
Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?
After all, your idea of leaving the flyer in reserve to deploy 'normally' later may also turn out to not be possible, if at the time of deployment the flyer can't legally deploy.
The only sensible approach, IMO, is to assume that deployment conditions must be met during the deployment step - meaning that at the end of your deployment phase, all of your units must have been deployed or kept in reserves. Deploying most of your army while holding a unit in reserve to deploy later does not satisfy that criteria.
There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing.
Yes there is. It's the bit that refers specifically to 'all units'.
It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start.
Well, not quite. It's being stated outright that the two options are that all units be in reserve, or all units deploy normally, and that deploying most of your units normally and keeping one in reserve does not satisfy either of those criteria.
While I can see your point on flyers' 'normal' deployment, you're attempting to satisfy a deployment requirement by claiming that you will perform a specific action (which you may or may not actually be able to follow through on) at some point in the future. And that's not going to fly with most players, IMO.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 22:52:26
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
nosferatu1001 wrote:So you can comply with the rule at any time. Despite the rule giving no such allowance?
Correction. Despite the rule giving no such requirement as to when this is to be accomplished.
nosferatu1001 wrote:It's broken at deployment. That's a fact. You cannot dispute that.
Only if the "deployed as normal" applies by the end of deployment. And because it does not state that like many other rules involved that are that specific, I can easily dispute it.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Trystis - so you stil make the claim that the first rule has no effect then?
Just to be clear, you think that GW wrote a rule with no function?
I have already demonstrated that this rule is to provide an optional context to the portion of the rule that actually does something. That is the point of saying "if in Reserves" in the second sentence, to introduce the consequences of the decision in the first of "All in or normal".
nosferatu1001 wrote:The "all if the units" are a single object. This single item can exist in only one place - reserves or deployed. You have no permission to split them up, as the rule restricts you to one single location.
Sorry, the "as normal" redefines the case. If it was just "All in Reserves or Deployed", then you would have a case. If there was a timeframe that we had to have "deployed as normal" defined, you would have a case.
However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Keep insisting there is no restriction there - and that the rule does nothing - you just remain incorrect.
Incorrect. This portion of the rule does something, and that is define the context for the rest of the rule.
Remember, Strike As One is entirely optional in use, and is not required like the Deathwing detachments do require them.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 22:55:31
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 23:10:00
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Charistoph wrote:
However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers..
Deploying from Reserves is also 100% normal and expected for any other unit kept in Reserves.
So if we're assuming that the requirement to deploy 'as normal' allows flyers to be kept in Reserve and deploy later, doesn't that also mean that any other unit could do the same?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 23:14:22
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
insaniak wrote:Trystis wrote:
You might be right, but I don't believe you are though because Ongoing Reserve appear to be its own thing different from regular Reserves.
It's not. As per the rule you quoted, 'Ongoing Reserves' is just what we call it when something goes into Reserves after the game starts.
This is pretty much correct. Ongoing Reserves even states it follows all rules for Reserves. There are only two exceptions to this: When you can come back in and denial of the use of Outflank.
insaniak wrote:At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.
Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out numerous times, there is no requirement for this to be accomplished by deployment, this is only an assumption, not an actual written requirement.
insaniak wrote:After all, your idea of leaving the flyer in reserve to deploy 'normally' later may also turn out to not be possible, if at the time of deployment the flyer can't legally deploy.
Why do I have to make sure by the time of deployment? Where is this as a requirement?
insaniak wrote:The only sensible approach, IMO, is to assume that deployment conditions must be met during the deployment step - meaning that at the end of your deployment phase, all of your units must have been deployed or kept in reserves. Deploying most of your army while holding a unit in reserve to deploy later does not satisfy that criteria.
Correct if the status is required by the end of deployment. Now... where is that requirement?
insaniak wrote:There is no actual stipulation in the rule that all units do the same thing.
Yes there is. It's the bit that refers specifically to 'all units'.
It should be more accurate that there is no stipulation that it all be done at the same time. And leaving that out is part of the problem.
insaniak wrote:It's being implied by some that since one of the two options requires all units be in reserve, that the other option required that they are deployed on the table before the game start.
Well, not quite. It's being stated outright that the two options are that all units be in reserve, or all units deploy normally, and that deploying most of your units normally and keeping one in reserve does not satisfy either of those criteria.
While I can see your point on flyers' 'normal' deployment, you're attempting to satisfy a deployment requirement by claiming that you will perform a specific action (which you may or may not actually be able to follow through on) at some point in the future. And that's not going to fly with most players, IMO.
The problem with this perspective is simply this part: " to satisfy a deployment requirement". It needs to be established that this is a deployment requirement first before placing any other onus on what may come later.
And let's face it, it is a lot harder to not deploy from Reserves than it used to be. At one point, there is no keeping it in Reserves and it arrives automatically. Automatically Appended Next Post: insaniak wrote: Charistoph wrote:
However, it does say "deployed as normal", and no timeframe for this to be accomplished by are provided, and deploying from Reserves is 100% normal and expected for Flyers..
Deploying from Reserves is also 100% normal and expected for any other unit kept in Reserves.
So if we're assuming that the requirement to deploy 'as normal' allows flyers to be kept in Reserve and deploy later, doesn't that also mean that any other unit could do the same?
It depends on how we define "normal". For Flyers and Drop Pods, this is a literal expectation and not being deployed from Reserves would be "abnormal". In this case Flyers and Drop Pods are abnormal. But just because it is abnormal for everyone else, it doesn't mean it cannot be normal for those it is expected of.
It is expected for penguins to swim and not to fly, yet it is expected for birds to fly. Swimming is not normal for birds, but it is quite normal for penguins. And there are some birds that both swim and fly like ducks, so it is normal for them to do both in the course of events.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 23:20:33
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/20 23:26:49
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Charistoph wrote:
insaniak wrote:At any rate only the flier has the ability to enter ongoing reserves so it wouldn't actually be possible. This example doesn't really counteract the logic that I'm using since Ongoing Reserves appear to be different from regular reserves, and because it's not actually possible due to other rule considerations.
Which rule are you referencing to determine when you check for the legality of the deployment?
Unfortunately, as has been pointed out numerous times, there is no requirement for this to be accomplished by deployment, this is only an assumption, not an actual written requirement.
That was the point, though. If we assume that there is no time limit on checking if your chosen deployment method is actually legal, then putting half of your army in Reserve and putting the rest on the table intending to make them go into Ongoing Reserves later on is just as legal as deploying all of your army except the flyer... because you can choose to just keep putting off the part where you actually check if going into Ongoing Reserves is possible.
So either we assume that checking if your deployment is legal is something that happens during deployment, or we have a rule covering how we have to deploy that is actually completely non-functional since you can just deploy or reserve whatever you want anyway.
It depends on how we define "normal".
Indeed it does. Without any clarity in the rules themselves, we're left guessing whether they meant 'Normal for everybody', 'Normal for the unit' or 'Normal for the situation'.
The 2nd and 3rd option result in broken situations.
The first option is the most restrictive, but results in all units either deploying or being in reserve, which certainly seems to be the likely objective of a rule that tells us that all of our units either deploy or are kept in reserve.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/20 23:29:59
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 00:31:25
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
insaniak wrote:That was the point, though. If we assume that there is no time limit on checking if your chosen deployment method is actually legal, then putting half of your army in Reserve and putting the rest on the table intending to make them go into Ongoing Reserves later on is just as legal as deploying all of your army except the flyer... because you can choose to just keep putting off the part where you actually check if going into Ongoing Reserves is possible.
Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves? The only units which can go in to Ongoing Reserves on a regular basis are Flyers. The next most common are Deep Striking units with Mishap. Anything else is specific to a unit's datasheet like a Night Scythe's Embarked unit.
That's what makes this point rather pointless.
insaniak wrote:So either we assume that checking if your deployment is legal is something that happens during deployment, or we have a rule covering how we have to deploy that is actually completely non-functional since you can just deploy or reserve whatever you want anyway.
At least you are stating you are operating on an assumption. Mr. Nos is telling use this is a stated condition. I can only do so much against an assumption, but I can do a lot about a stated condition that does not exist.
As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.
And yes, deploying as normal would include Reserves for those required. However, as previously stated, the rest of the rule is dependent on all units being in Reserve and does not care nor operate when you are not all in. If you want the detachment to come in from Reserves (like Outflank) on a specific Turn (i.e. Turn 2), they must all be in Reserves. If this is not an objective of this detachment, deploy as normal.
insaniak wrote:It depends on how we define "normal".
Indeed it does. Without any clarity in the rules themselves, we're left guessing whether they meant 'Normal for everybody', 'Normal for the unit' or 'Normal for the situation'.
The 2nd and 3rd option result in broken situations.
The first option is the most restrictive, but results in all units either deploying or being in reserve, which certainly seems to be the likely objective of a rule that tells us that all of our units either deploy or are kept in reserve.
No, it does not. Option 2 and 3 are no more broken than when deploying for a CAD, hence "normal". And if you are deploying like a CAD, then you weren't planning on using Strike As One anyway, so nothing broken.
Are you understanding this paradigm?
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 01:30:53
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Charistoph wrote:Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves?
Sure. I'll do so at the time at which the rules tell us to check the validity of my deployment.
As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.
We've established that the RAW is unclear as to just which definition of 'Normal' we should use... at which point, we're all arguing on assumptions and personal opinion.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 03:55:15
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
insaniak wrote: Charistoph wrote:Okay, can you demonstrate how any of those units go in to Ongoing Reserves without having started the game in Reserves?
Sure. I'll do so at the time at which the rules tell us to check the validity of my deployment.
I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.
insaniak wrote:As you are defining it as an assumption, that puts it in the realms of HYWPI. I have no problems with that, so long as you are defining that with your opponent before hand. But in terms of defining the RAW, RAA have little place.
We've established that the RAW is unclear as to just which definition of 'Normal' we should use... at which point, we're all arguing on assumptions and personal opinion.
We have, yes, apparently. Not everyone who has posted to this thread has accepted that so far, though.
As for SHOULD Strike As One require all the Bikes and Land Speeders to be in Reserve if a Drop Pod or Flyer is added... I stand by how I see the interactions between the first and second sentence. If you want to take advantage of the automatically arriving on Turn 2, all the detachment has to start the game in Reserves. If you do not wish to take advantage of it, then deployment is normal and handled just like a Combined Arms Detachment. No need to look for easter eggs or fancy requirements.
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 04:08:35
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
[MOD]
Making Stuff
|
Charistoph wrote:I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.
You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 06:09:09
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Not as Good as a Minion
|
insaniak wrote: Charistoph wrote:I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.
You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.
Actually, they DO need to fit that reference in order to accomplish what you are suggesting.
This is not the same situation as something required to be in Reserves and being deployed later. You're concerning yourself with something that cannot go back in to Reserves being able to go in to Reserves. Capacity must at least exist.
Flyers that start the game in Reserves WILL be in deployed, unless the game is stopped before then. Conversely, a unit that cannot go in to Ongoing Reserves cannot be used in a situation to say, "Oh, they'll just go in to Reserves eventually", because they cannot.
|
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 06:38:20
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Regular Dakkanaut
|
insaniak wrote: Charistoph wrote:I'm just saying worrying about it at this point is pointless without something that fits that reference.
You've missed the point - Nothing needs to fit that reference, since without a specific time that it needs to be checked, it will never be an issue. I just deploy whichever parts of my army that I want to and say that they'll go into Reserves later. How they'll get there doesn't matter until it's time to resolve it, according to your argument... and since there is no time limit on resolving it, that never needs to actually happen.
Now that I have had time to read the ongoing reserves rule more closely it is definitely its own thing. Here is the rule, bolded the part that caught my attention:
“If a unit enters Reserve part way through the game, such as a Flyer leaving the battlefield, this is referred to as entering Ongoing Reserves. Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player’s following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves.”
The rule states that when a unit leaves the battleground it enters Ongoing Reserves. The units in Ongoing Reserves follow slightly different rules than units in regular Reserve. Most importantly it specifies that units are in Ongoing Reserves, not that they join units that have been placed in Reserve. It's titled differently so it's not possible to fulfill the all units in reserve requirement.
Even if entering Ongoing Reserves was considered the same as being in Reserves it's not the same as a flier deploying normally. It's possible and normal for the flier to be deployed from reserve, but it's impossible for any of the other units to enter Ongoing Reserves, barring a deep strike mishap. This means you can only place the units, other than the flier, in Reserve during deployment. It's not an option to place them in reserve later in the game so you would be unable to meet the requirement that all units be placed in reserve. This is different than a flier being deployed from reserve because that will happen as normal, while claiming that a unit will do something it can't do is not possible. Since it's not possible to do it's also not possible to fulfill the requirement, thus breaking the rule.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/21 06:38:58
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/03/21 08:05:03
Subject: Ravenwing Strike Force and Dark Talon
|
 |
Decrepit Dakkanaut
|
And again, even if we accept "deployed normally" it still does not allow you to have some of the units in reserve and some deployed. Because you are breakING the rule, and nothing says you may do so. Impasse. the first sentence, to have an effect, must set all units to the same "status" - every unit is either deployed, or every unit is placed in reserves. No exceptions. A flyer in Reserves and the rest deployed does not satisfy this first restriction of "all units", and this breaks a rule. Later on you may comply, but you still break this rule at deployment. And without permision to do so, you cannot proceed Chrisatoph - so the rule has no function. None.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/21 08:08:47
|
|
 |
 |
|