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So maybe it's because I've been out of the game for a while and the metas changed, but no one seems to bring termies to the table anymore and people rip them open online, wondering what's with the changes adittude towards the bulky marines?

They are slow and die easily in the current state of 40k

They are poorly designed units. Nothing they do synergizes what any other element to the unit does.

They are points heavy. The reason behind that is terminators get a 2+/5++, gain relentless and deep strike, and have storm bolters and power fists.

The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)

The Power Fists would be nice, but getting them in to close combat costs you 250 points by way of Land Raider, because a deep striking unit just gets shot off the table. Plus, they cannot sweeping advance. It's a unit with 25+ points worth of close combat related wargear that can't do the single most important function of close combat units, and due to how sweeping advance is worded, stop your other CC units from doing so. Awful design.

Storm Bolters are a joke of a weapon, especially for a deep striking, relentless unit. That means the only reason to even have relentless is if you bring an assault cannon or Cyclone Missiles. Assault Cannons are alright, but are kind of pricey for what they do. Cyclone Missiles are pretty good, but want to shoot at different targets than what storm bolters want to shoot at, typically. Dark Angels get to bring Plasma Cannons, which is nonsensical because you can't overwatch with blast weapons and if you deep strike, you're likely to get assaulted so you'd lose out on the primary benefit of your army (Grim Resolve granting BS2 overwatch).

They are simply too costly. 2+ isn't that much better than 3+ when you're talking shooting because AP values tend to be all-or-nothing in the shooting phase.

The single, only possible use of them is to go assault teams with Thunder Hammer/Storm Shields, and hunt down monstrous creatures, Gargantuan Creatures or Superheavies. Thing is, you are spending more points on 5 T4 wounds than the opponent is on 5 T6 or better wounds that probably has better shooting and better close combat abilities.

In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.

Traditio wrote:
In 40k, specialization is the name of the game if you want your units to be effective. Terminators are 35 ppm and don't do any one thing extraordinarily well. You're better off using honor guard or something.

The same holds for tactical units. They are the master of none. Gw should have put more emphasize to the design.

Terminators are cool especially if they do have force weapons. I do field them regularly and enjoy it a lot, but I can only do this due to a lack off grav spam in my local meta.

I do play them in small squads moving them from line of sight blocking cover to line of sight blocking cover. You do not want them in line of sight with anything that has ap2 shooting attacks.

The whole sneaking around and insagibbing monsters is fun. Just never bring them to any game where you could face a grav biker list : P

Tactical Terminators are sucky because you have to pay for powerfists (which aren't cheap) no matter what, and you have to pay for storm bolters, which, as SRSFACE put it, suck. I mean, some factions' basic troops get better weapons for heaven's sake. There are also no really good special/heavy weapons. Like, assault cannons and heavy flamers are really inferior to stuff that tactical or devastator squads can take. Against grav, plasma, melta, even lascannons, they just are often not as useful. In a way, it's because Termies haven't gotten any better over the various editions.

In 40k, it's all about the ability to get there, and kill stuff, and sadly, Tactical Terminators are good at neither. They are a lot more tanky than regular PA marines, but so what? Everything that matters can crush them badly anyhow They also have no mean tricks, like move-shoot-move or rending, or anything really cool, and because their killing potential is pretty limited, it's not worthwhile to buff them with psychic powers and relics to get them to the point where they're really hard to kill.

I think the last time I liked terminators was a very long time ago, when they had cool cyclones with massive hit radii, at least for Frag

Really, you are better off spending the points on Centurions, which is kind of what Terminators should be. Or don't, and get tacticals, which at least can net you a free rhino or drop pod.

the biggest issue is that the game is currently silly aggressive, its why tyranids spam flying monstrous creatures and why bike armies or fast moving units like crisis suits have pretty much mothballed everything else in their codex that cant travel 18-24" in a single game turn. terminators require a slower game and marine both cannot slow a game down to let them be useful later in a game, or make them fast enough to deal with the aggression

in addition shooting has become absolutely ridiculous and terminators are a stabbing unit, if you cant assault from deepstrike, and ignore overwatch, and consolidate into combat nobody gives a flying feth about you or what weapons or kit you have unless you ahve a ridiculous baseline like 9 wounds at t6+ with deepstrike and strength d hammers of wrath (thats a really far out there example ut the point is you have to basically be broken as a cc unit or have a way to become broken).

terminators prices are also all out of whack with the current game because strength of weapons higher then 9 is becoming just common place. without trying to hard i can link about 5 items with strength D or 10 ranged weapons that are common place right now. its hard for them to exist in the current game

in addition gargantuans and superheavies are on the menu, terminators havent a prayer when it comes to being in an army that can make them work and handle threats like them


how would we change this?

1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad

2) bike units and jetbikes need a major price jack, and shooting centric specialists need to have some of their special rules packages and baselines either adjusted or be gutted. theyve grown out of control

3) you need to slow the game down, this will probably need to involve a reworking of the imbalance between shooting and melee (as noted in item 2) and a rebalancing of unit types where some unit types are objectively better then others because of their mechanics. such as jump infantry and jetpack infantry, jetbikes, cavalry, and bikes. formations that encourage shooting would also need to be re-examind ad well as CC patch job formations like the skyhammer annihilation force and shadowstrike killteam this is to make sure its not a totally worthless venture to buy shooting units. in some cases formations may simply be removed entirely.

option step 4) (as this mainly applies to terminator like units in other armies): you then need to go back and start fixing base armies and dropping supplemental things like formations and supplemental rules. in some cases armies could lose whole army supplements from legal use such as farsight enclave and clan raukkan, this would also include things like relics and warlord traits. for example anything granting eternal warriors would probably become very expensive, or any way to make a non troops base unit a troop such as bike marines in codex marines.

then and maybe then you will see terminators and middle men units like nobz, ogryn, wolf guard terminators, dreadnaughts, the gorkanaut/morkanaut, tyranid warriors/hive guard/genestealers that are just shoved out of the game by better units above them and below them come back on the level. and then wed need to run serious games testing to ensure that this balance is constantly in balance in the future

I've found Tactical Terminators slow, have low firepower and only access to one heavy weapon per five (which is rubbish).

Assault Terminators, bar not being able to sweeping advance, are still at least a silver standard for assault units with access to SS/TH or Dual LCs.

Grey Knight terminators are very versitile, with access to 5 (!) flavours of force weapon, better heavy weapons then vanilla termies (Psycannon and Incinerator ftw) and they're psykers, and only 33 ppm.

You do have to expect though, running Assault or GK Terminator flavours, you will be focused fired down before you get into combat. No one cares too much about tactical termies because, at range, they're rubbish, and are easily tarpitted.


Plus, if you want to be cheesy, take a GK Libby with Sanctic, roll for the power that gives +1 to your invul saves, put him in a unit of Iron Hands Assault terminators for a 2+/2++/6+++ fun times. You won't get anywhere fast, but damn you won't be killed.

You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.

Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.

If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.

Dark Angel Terminators any good? Can they still mix n match weapons?

Taking 10 and splitting them into combat squads (one with 2 heavy weapons, and a storm shield for tanking, the other loaded out for combat) could be an idea worth pursuing? Having 2 deployments might help the 'get shot off the table before they can do anything' problem?

nareik wrote:
Dark Angel Terminators any good? Can they still mix n match weapons?

Taking 10 and splitting them into combat squads (one with 2 heavy weapons, and a storm shield for tanking, the other loaded out for combat) could be an idea worth pursuing? Having 2 deployments might help the 'get shot off the table before they can do anything' problem?

Any good? No. Mix and match weapons? Yes.

They don't have the Combat Squads special rule, else you could do what you suggested. Good thinking, but impossible.

It also doesn't solve the problem that close combat terminators are worthless without a land raider, because the vast majority of targets in today's meta they'd want to go after can get away from them.

I took a unit of Terminators once, was unlucky with my reserve roll for deepstriking them, arrived turn four, game was pretty much all over for me by then. Salt in the wounds, four out of the five got shot off the table, the last one never made close combat as everything moved away from it.
Won't take them again.

 SRSFACE wrote:
You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.

Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.

If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.

theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better

also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode

 SRSFACE wrote:
Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.

And the ability to take smaller squads. With a slightly lower cost per model anyway, deep striking in three combi-weapons is not too bad a use of points, and if they survive the experience they can still break face better than most throw-away suicide units (but are more expensive, obviously).



In Horus Heresy games, Legion Terminators are not bad. Enemies have a lot less access to, or at least tend to pay proportionally more for, massed AP2 weapons, and Cataphractii-pattern armour packs a 4++ save, rather than 5++, whilst Tartaros-pattern does let you sweeping advance (making it nice for assault units). Plus, given that scoring units are much more restricted, Implacable Advance (which makes you scoring) is very nice.

Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.

I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.

I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.

But..

The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.

Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.

Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.

Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.

 General Kroll wrote:
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.

Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.

 Nordicus wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.

Or, alternatively, give them a 2+/3++ standard so they can actually live through the AP race that is currently happening - They have an armor the size of a house, for goodness sake. Let's give them a save that reflects that.

Yeah give them that too, Terminators should be badass. I guess one of the main problems too is that they span maybe five or six different codices. You update one of them to be badass and everyone else throws a tantrum.

I play Deathwing, and have observed that specific problem with Terminators can be summed up basically as:

-They don't throw enough dice. 2+ save is great when your dice is hot but one poor roll and major part of your firepower is gone. Their ranged fire is poor by modern standards, nowadays Rapid Fire doesn't suffer from movement so Storm Bolters aren't so great anymore. Also, cost of basic troops for has gone down signifantly over last two editions, Terminators still cost the same. So they simply can't compete in points effectiveness anymore. Even with Deathwing assault which lets you reroll dice seldom does any signifant damage.

In close combat, they do not have enough attacks and are easily overwhelmed. They have 2 attacks at WS 4. Almost everything in the game is WS 4 so Termies get on average 1 hit. If you have a Power sword it is S4 and almost everyone in the game is T4. So your Terminator Sergeant can be expected to make 0.5 Wounds per assault phase. Not so great from 40pts model!

Power fists and hammers hit at I1 and at that point you have usually lost 2-3 Terminators already. So you get maybe 4 to 6 attacks at WS4. Granted they usually wound at 2+ but roll poorly, and you kill maybe 1 enemy figure. Even if you roll really well, you kill maybe 4-5 enemies. And next turn remaining 20 Ork Boyz wipe you off.

In my opinion, problem with both Tactical Marines and Terminators stem from the fact that they're meant to be 'elite' but all of their opponents get similar stats for cheaper. When your 200 point unit throws 10 attacks each of which has 50% chance of hitting, it's not so great value for points. It would help a little if WS4 wasn't so damn common. Ork Boyz and Necrons Warriors at least should be WS3. Terminators probably should be T5 and/or fire Overwatch on full BS. Also they should treat Storm Bolters as CC weapons, that would at least make Power Weapons bit more meaningful for Termies.

Lets not even go to things like Grav Weapons and various Plasma monstrosities which exist in todays game.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The only one of these things that's a tangible benefit is the 2+/5++. Deep striking has it's usefulness, but space marines have plenty of other ways to deep strike units. Many of those units are significantly better in the turn they arrive from deep strike than Terminators are (Sternguard in general, Company Veterans for Dark Angels geared out with Combi-weapons, etc)

That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.

Don't give them 3++, give less models a ++ save

3++ is nonsense. If a gun can one shot a landraider it sure should murder a marine even if he wears the best armour in the imperium.

Its the availability of AP2 weapons that need to change. Make grav anti multi wound weapons instead of anti terminator weapons and tone down the spamability of all those rending and ap2 guns.

The alternative is buffing walkers, tanks, and terminators ; )

 ionusx wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.

Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.

If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.

theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better

also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode

Let's actually parse this out.

Before doing so, let's also agree combi-weapon upgrades for terminators would only be 5 points instead of 10. Reason being that's what it is for terminator HQs replacing their stormbolter, so it stands to reason that'd be passed down to tacticals.

A 5 man team of Sternguard fully equipped with combi-whatever, and a drop pod for deep striking them, is 195 points. This tactical terminator team with an assault cannon and 4 combi-weapons would be 215 points. We're only 20 points difference away, and I have to tell you that's awfully tempting. You'd be giving special issue ammo (and a storm bolter by way of drop pod I guess) for a 2+/5++ and 4 powerfists and a powersword.

Does this not look tempting? That looks mighty fine to me. A lot of people already run that 5 man sternguard blob and feel like it's worth it even though they get shot off the table immediately after, because it's hard to argue with a boatload of melta/plasma on demand, where you need it, turn 1.

Then you gotta factor formations into this. 1st Company Taskforce has preferred enemy against whatever priority target you want to nuke. Having an additional combi-melta team deep striking alongside the podded Sternguard would be really awesome. If you look at Strike Force Ultra? Holy gak it'd make the entire thing worth doing because you'd just blow your combi-weapon load on the turn you'd gain an extra shot. That'd be amazing with some combi-meltas.

Let's talk Dark Angels for a sec, simply because we can. The pod veterans team is significantly cheaper than the Sternguard team as it just comes in at 175 points. The Deathwing terminators would come in at 240 points (again, assuming we bring an assault cannon.) It's a much bigger discrepancy but even before getting into Formations, keep in mind you're twin-linked the turn you arrive from Deep Strike so your blowing your combi-use is significantly more reliable. The Veteran team is still probably better in this case, but there's at least a reason you might wanna go with a Deathwing team instead.

...Seriously, guys, I think I figured it out. All terminators really need is combi-weapons as an option for any model in the squad. It really would solve a lot of their poor shooting issues. All you REALLY need is one turn to shoot with them, because turn 2 they want to get in close combat anyway, so from a unit design standpoint it's a lot better. Take away the sweeping advance restriction and you're there. It'd be a unit worth taking again.

 Draco wrote:

That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.

Already covered you, boss. I actually gave some CSM terminators love earlier. It's also the only way to get a 2+ armor save on an HQ unit for them, and the fact it confers an invulnerable save matters to them because they don't get one default.

 ionusx wrote:


1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad

Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:
You know, we're all talking loyalist terminators.

Let's give some love to Chaos Terminators for a sec. They are overcosted, yeah, but it'll come down a bit when the next Chaos book finally comes out. In the meantime, the thing they've got over loyalist marines is the ability to bring Combi-weapons on every last dude in the squad.

If you could do that with Tactical Terminators, they'd be pretty solid especially in a Deathwing list. They'd at least have one really solid round of shooting and could be used as slightly more armored (but more expensive) Sternguard/Company Veterans.

theyd still be overcosted, 5 veterans + drop pod is 125, 5 combat shields is 25, and 5 combi weapons is 50. so for 50 points less you get a unit that has the same baseline and could live just as long. the only downside is there cc is inferior but nobody bothers with cc anyway on anybody unless your a skyhammer, on a bike/cavalry, or a shadowstrike killteam. the solution isnt to "make them shoot better" its to make them more useful and no amount of statline fixes or points adjustments, or upgrade tweaks will fix them unless they can just buy assault from deepstrike at the cost of their ranged weapon. if that was an upgrade terminators could acquire they would become a lot better

also id like to see deathwing knights get a buff in their baseline they need something, maybe +1 attack in either smite or normal mode

Let's actually parse this out.

Before doing so, let's also agree combi-weapon upgrades for terminators would only be 5 points instead of 10. Reason being that's what it is for terminator HQs replacing their stormbolter, so it stands to reason that'd be passed down to tacticals.

A 5 man team of Sternguard fully equipped with combi-whatever, and a drop pod for deep striking them, is 195 points. This tactical terminator team with an assault cannon and 4 combi-weapons would be 215 points. We're only 20 points difference away, and I have to tell you that's awfully tempting. You'd be giving special issue ammo (and a storm bolter by way of drop pod I guess) for a 2+/5++ and 4 powerfists and a powersword.

Does this not look tempting? That looks mighty fine to me. A lot of people already run that 5 man sternguard blob and feel like it's worth it even though they get shot off the table immediately after, because it's hard to argue with a boatload of melta/plasma on demand, where you need it, turn 1.

Then you gotta factor formations into this. 1st Company Taskforce has preferred enemy against whatever priority target you want to nuke. Having an additional combi-melta team deep striking alongside the podded Sternguard would be really awesome. If you look at Strike Force Ultra? Holy gak it'd make the entire thing worth doing because you'd just blow your combi-weapon load on the turn you'd gain an extra shot. That'd be amazing with some combi-meltas.

Let's talk Dark Angels for a sec, simply because we can. The pod veterans team is significantly cheaper than the Sternguard team as it just comes in at 175 points. The Deathwing terminators would come in at 240 points (again, assuming we bring an assault cannon.) It's a much bigger discrepancy but even before getting into Formations, keep in mind you're twin-linked the turn you arrive from Deep Strike so your blowing your combi-use is significantly more reliable. The Veteran team is still probably better in this case, but there's at least a reason you might wanna go with a Deathwing team instead.

...Seriously, guys, I think I figured it out. All terminators really need is combi-weapons as an option for any model in the squad. It really would solve a lot of their poor shooting issues. All you REALLY need is one turn to shoot with them, because turn 2 they want to get in close combat anyway, so from a unit design standpoint it's a lot better. Take away the sweeping advance restriction and you're there. It'd be a unit worth taking again.

 Draco wrote:

That is true in SM, but CSM is different thing. You can take combis to all (example termicide) and deepstriking is valuable when CSM have not drop pods.

Already covered you, boss. I actually gave some CSM terminators love earlier. It's also the only way to get a 2+ armor save on an HQ unit for them, and the fact it confers an invulnerable save matters to them because they don't get one default.

I actually do play chaos so that may have been a bit of my problem, seeing as how our terminators can actually be pretty useful at times, if a little impractical at others, but they've definently been the deciding factor in a few of my games, because when they work, they work great.

The problem is not high AP weaponry.

It's ROF. Too many units have access to too many dice worth of shots. Eldar scatter lasers, Tau firepower in general, Necron gauss weaponry (I'm thinking Ghost Arks, which have insane output), etc etc.

You drown the unit in wounds and each '1' you roll is a big points loss.

They should get a re-rollable 2+/3++ save. Make them damn hard to kill. Fluff - TDA is supposed to be used in reactor cores... it's tougher than a Land Raider's testicles

Too much easy access to ap2 weapons since 6th killed off terminators 50 points for something that dies as easy as a 15 point guy makes no sense.

 Xerics wrote:

 ionusx wrote:


1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad

Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.

At this rate it's going to be too bad for those who do like superheavies because they aren't really doing any favours to the game. 40K being at the point where basic terminators and tactical squads are bad means it's in need of a serious overhaul.

zerosignal wrote:The problem is not high AP weaponry. It's ROF. Too many units have access to too many dice worth of shots. Eldar scatter lasers, Tau firepower in general, Necron gauss weaponry (I'm thinking Ghost Arks, which have insane output), etc etc.

You drown the unit in wounds and each '1' you roll is a big points loss.

hobojebus wrote:Too much easy access to ap2 weapons since 6th killed off terminators 50 points for something that dies as easy as a 15 point guy makes no sense.

The real problem is that it’s both You have an expensive elite unit that be be taken down with either massed small arms, or a few AP2 hits. The only thing it’s really good at is stopping low volume, better-then-average-but-not-the-best shots. Like one or two autocannons (but not more) or a handful of krack missiles. But once you have fire that can do more then half a dozen wounds to T4 models, or any amount of AP2 hits, they just start to evaporate. And for something that supposed to be the best armor in the universe, that’s kinda sad.

The slow erosion of the stormbolter does not help either. They used to be a good way to project fire on the move. Now everyone can do that.

 Xerics wrote:

 ionusx wrote:

1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad

Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.

While I agree they are going to be part of standard rules from now until the end of eternity, this kind of thinking needs to end.

It's a game. It should be enjoyable for both sides. Because I currently do not have a list that can even reasonably fight Tau, the people I know who have Tau armies and I never play and are still good friends. The thing about this hobby is that there's actual people actually involved, and it's never as bad in person as people make it out to be online. Ever.

If Superheavies and Gargantuan creatures are too difficult for your list to handle, talk to your opponent and decide on a game list you will both enjoy. If the person refuses to play you outright, rather than get mad and accuse the person of being a win at all cost guy, realize that person owns a really cool and powerful model so of course they want to play with it, and part ways with no hurt feelings.

 General Kroll wrote:
Yeah I think it's summed up by the phrase Jack of all trades, master of none.

I love terminators, I love the look, I love the look, and they scare the hell out of me on the table for some godforsaken reason.

I think it's easy to just say they suck, they don't suck, they are still a meaty threatening unit that are hard to kill unless you have the right tools to do so.

But..

The criticisms levelled at them in this thread are all valid. But I don't think, as one poster put it up thread, that the whole game needs to change to make them work. That's frankly ridiculous.

Basically, terminators need a big points reduction, coupled with a buff for the humble Storm bolter. Also give them access to special issue ammunition, and suddenly it's a whole different ball game.

Make the storm bolter salvo 2/4 or even 2/6 and cost 10-15 points, and on a relentless platform where they get it base, it becomes a beast of a weapon, with all sorts of fun ammo options.

Yet on an ordinary mook it's still pretty average.

Go play some Eldar. You won't be scared of terminators after that. 2+ armor is basically gak now in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 ionusx wrote:


1) no more gargantuans, or super heavies outside of apcoalypse, you dont like it too bad

Superheavys and gargantuan creatures are probably gunna be here to stay. You don't like it too bad.

At this rate it's going to be too bad for those who do like superheavies because they aren't really doing any favours to the game. 40K being at the point where basic terminators and tactical squads are bad means it's in need of a serious overhaul.

These units have always been bad, though. Their concept just doesn't work in a game where people can customize and specialize. Even when terminators were 3+ on two dice, the loyalist terminators SUCKED.