Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

FNP makes no sense on Terminators though.

S5 Storm Bolter, 2 Heavy Weapons on a squad of 5, and cheaper TH/SS is the correct fix.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FNP makes no sense on Terminators though.

S5 Storm Bolter, 2 Heavy Weapons on a squad of 5, and cheaper TH/SS is the correct fix.

I just played a game with my GK, and was putting Endurance on Paladins; they were crazy survivable.

FNP makes no sense still. Just improve the toughness and invul.

Or all the AP2 pie plates keep having a field day.

In a D10 system, terminators could still be 2+, but make every blast in the game AP 3 or worse. You have to direct fire them down then. That's the only fix I see, which requires a complete rewrite. And make plasma AP 3 under such a system as well.

I say make them T5 and two wounds. I never understood why Terminators were only one wound in the first place.

I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.

Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?

Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.

Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?

Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.

Well I never thought a downgrade would actually improve them. But you are correct. By simply removing the PF and allowing them to attack at initiative would be a pretty significant upgrade. Of course it would only be worth it with an appropriate points reduction.

They'd still be bad, imo. Their lack of ranged ability is unforgivable in 7th.

I played a game yesterday where I (CSM) took 5 terminators and deep striked them against a riptide. They had MoN so that had that nice T5, but against Tau it didn't help a whole lot. Riptides can intercept DS units, I was lucky and none of his shots landed, but even with combi-meltas I barely did any damage and was destroyed in his shoot phase the next round...... however my next turn I charged him with 15 CCW cultists and destroyed that riptide, so I guess the termies were an expensive distraction.

sturgeondtd wrote:
I played a game yesterday where I (CSM) took 5 terminators and deep striked them against a riptide. They had MoN so that had that nice T5, but against Tau it didn't help a whole lot. Riptides can intercept DS units, I was lucky and none of his shots landed, but even with combi-meltas I barely did any damage and was destroyed in his shoot phase the next round...... however my next turn I charged him with 15 CCW cultists and destroyed that riptide, so I guess the termies were an expensive distraction.

How did they hurt it? I've charged those things with 10 DC before and lost. They are truly immortal.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.

Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?

Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.

While I agree some of the wish listing is a bit OTT, are you really claiming nurgle mutilators / obliterators are over powered, or are you assuming no points increase for the upgrade?

Giving storm bolters S5 is a bad idea IMO. They are boltyers with a higher rate of fire after all.

What I would suggest is giving them the Tesla/Shock rule -- getting 2 more hits on the roll of a 6 to hit. They are after all anti-infantry weapons.

Shred might be a good compromise. But only for the ones on terminators, due to their extra ammo capacity. Or, alternative, take away their storm bolters and give them a different weapon.

Make storm bolters on terminators a melee weapon with the specialist weapon rule.

On chaos terminators comboi bolters are regular melee weapons with ap3 (have you seen those power bayonettes!?)

Long time ago I watched a battle report of Space Marines vs flying Tyranids. The termies did nothing.

In response to Martel732, the gods must be crazy as the riptide had 3 HP left and way more dice hit than should have and he failed a lot of saves.

But back on topic, I think terminators need 2 wounds and immune to instant death or an invuln save at 3+ to be viable, especially for their price in the chaos codex. You would think termies would truly be VotLW and not die so easily against anything better than a bolter.

nareik wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
I don't think you guys truly understand the scale of the buff you want. Had terminator armor provide T5 and another wound, they would be overpower already.

Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?

Their main problem is that you don't need so many power fists. And the current codex forces it.

While I agree some of the wish listing is a bit OTT, are you really claiming nurgle mutilators / obliterators are over powered, or are you assuming no points increase for the upgrade?

Nurgle terminators are not with 2 wounds, nor have power fists built in, nor have the pletora of loyalist marine rules on their side, nor are 35 points. (not much more, but still more, while being inferior other than the T5)
Oblits with MoN cost nearly double double than terminators. (though weapons included, they SHOULD cost quite a bit just not quite as much as they do.)


And yes, generally when people call for a buff, I assume that the intended is with points remaining the same unless otherwise stated.

Some ideas:

Allow terminator armour to ignore unwieldy.

Give them advanced targeting systems making all their weapons twin-linked.

On any turn they disembark from a transport or arrive from Deep Strike allow them to choose to either assault or shoot twice.

1.) Storm bolter being a salvo weapon (2/4), gives them volume of fire.
2.) 2 wounds and eternal warrior, doesn't solve the glut of ap 2 weapons, but makes it take a little work to kill termies.
3.) Better access to heavy/special weapons, say 1/5.
4.) Give the cyclone missile system split fire, which will help with the mixed weapon issue that heavy weapons in squads with small arms usually suffer from.

My ideas on how to buff termies. Note 1 and 2 are separate ideas. Its one or the other. Idea #3 however would apply to both changes.

Idea #1: If they fail a 2 up armor save they can opt to get a free re roll armor save, but on a 3+ instead of a 2+.
This makes them very resistant to small arms fire and will only go down to MASS small arms or dedicated anti tank weapons. They are still weak to AP2, but that is the point. You need anti tank weapons to deal with them.

Idea #2: Terminator armor provides FNP 5+ base. THis is the more mild version. FNP for all termies would be helpful in giving them more staying power on the field even against none s8 ap2 weapons. Would be even better with Iron Hands.

Idea #3: The sergeant (and only the sergeant) gains 2 wounds. The terminators are the elite of the elite and their sergeants are the leaders of the elite of the elite. They are the step down from captains and as such I think 2 wounds is fair for them.

I like it.

However make the 2nd suggestion (FNP) a re-rollable 5+ invul.

Martel732 wrote:
Shred might be a good compromise. But only for the ones on terminators, due to their extra ammo capacity. Or, alternative, take away their storm bolters and give them a different weapon.

I like that as a fluffy and game-worthy upgrade for Terminators. Not just Bolters, but what about any ranged weapon?

 SickSix wrote:
I say make them T5 and two wounds. I never understood why Terminators were only one wound in the first place.

Even being T4 with 2 wounds would help a great deal.

Increasing the storm bolters to assault 3 would also help address the problem of lack of damage output.

Since my fifteen 7pt acolytes all use storm bolters, I would absolutely welcome the idea of an upgrade to S5 or Assault 3! Or heck, why not both!

Fixing terminators would be pretty easy. Just do the following

2 Wounds. Suddenly, defensively, they are worth it over marines (currently they aren't unless you see AP 3 spam but still have a weakness against lascannons and stuff).

Storm bolters should be salvos. Something like 2/4. 4 bolter shots would mean that a squad of 5 kills
~4.5 DA/FW equivalents
~9 MeQ if no cover (about 6 with 5+ cover)
~2 Marines
Hmm, actually that's still not impressive for 200 points. Maybe give them shred as well, or Salvo 2/5. 2/5 w/o shred makes it
~5.5 DA/FW
~11 MeQ no cover, ~7.5 with 5+ cover
~3 Marines
That seems a bit more fair. Shred would make them brutal against infantry but still weak against larger/tougher infantry.


I always saw this as the Termies roll. Moving through huge amounts of gunfire and punching tanks or shooting up troops so the specialized marines can move in. It would make them interesting.

I also want to see more T4 multiple wound units. It would make lances, lascannons, and ML a lot better. Lascannons especially would be anti-terminator weapons, and you might see them actually get used.

Martel732 wrote:


5th 3++ terminators were not an issue in my experience. Too slow to be a threat.

When the meta was mainly comprised of parking lots (5E), Deathwing was actually very threatening. DS a bunch of squads, run after the DS, weather the next turn of shooting and charge. It was pretty reasonable to get 3 or 4 squads within range for a charge in the following turn.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


5th 3++ terminators were not an issue in my experience. Too slow to be a threat.

When the meta was mainly comprised of parking lots (5E), Deathwing was actually very threatening. DS a bunch of squads, run after the DS, weather the next turn of shooting and charge. It was pretty reasonable to get 3 or 4 squads within range for a charge in the following turn.

Charge a bunch of cheap transports? Okay. Show me who's boss. Assuming they didn't move out of range of your slow infantry. That scheme absolutely did not work vs mech vet IG, which would be known to pack 20 meltas and 20 plasmas for starters.

The Imperial shooting options for terminators have always sunk them.

TH/SS Deathwing Terminators with CMLs back in 5th after the FAQ update where actually quite good vs the MSU Mech meta. I know I had a lot of fun with them.
Sadly all my Deathwing models have been sitting unloved in a box ever since 6th ed.

 BoomWolf wrote:

Terminators don't need quite as much as you think. They just need to downgrade their weapons.
According to CSM a power fist terminator is 7 points over a power weapon terminator. Can you really not see 28 point tactical terminators with power weapons instead of fists being valuable?

What makes Chaos Terminators better than loyalist Terminators isn't that they're cheaper because they're not obligated to have power fists (though that does help), it's that they can take combi-weapons, so their shooting on the turn they arrive can actually accomplish something useful. Loyalist Terminators have weak anti-infantry firepower they can't swap out. The best they can do is upgrade one guy per 5 to carry mediocre heavy weapons. Chaos Terminators can all be given combi-meltas, giving them a decent chance or slagging something on arrival.

 Quickjager wrote:
FNP makes no sense still. Just improve the toughness and invul.

Or all the AP2 pie plates keep having a field day.

How does increasing the toughness make sense but FNP doesn't? Ultimately, they are still just veteran marines, so a stat increase doesn't really fit, and we already have Centurian suits that increase wounds and toughness. FNP is easy enough to explain, the armour is just that dang tough. Only the biggest guns can reliably get through it. Increasing the invulnerable save does nothing to help against piddly small arms fire which wears the unit down through sheer volume (something that doesn't fit the terminator fluff in any way).

For those concerned that a FNP 4+ would be broken with all the rules that add to FNP, its an easy solution, put the stipulation in that it can't be increased beyond 4+ (much like Necrons and Reanimation Protocols).