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Discounting formations as well as the super detachments (e.g. the ones which are made up of formations such as Necron Decurion, SM Gladius) are there any good detachment types where you would forgo the advantage of objective secured for a CAD or an Allied Detachment?

Is this a serious question?

So you ask if there are any useful detachments and then disqualify 70% of detachments?

I think they are asking about alternate force organisation charts, where you select HQs, troops, etc.

The basic CAD is still decent as it allows for more variety in armies where formations are severely limiting in what you can take (like orks) or almost completely non-existent (like chaos). Other than that, I cannot think of any useful ones. The ones that I know (mostly the ones associated with orks) tend to have too many limitations.

The force organisation charts from planetstrike were fun, but I am not sure if they are legal to play outside of the supplement.

I guess you'd have to consider the value of ObSec to a given army, and then go from there.

Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit.

Armies like Eldar can play the best of both worlds. Take all your non-troops from formations, and then take a CAD of Bike-Seer and Scatter-Bikes.

Chaos Marines are in a similar boat, except it's a crappy boat. They have some useful non-troop formations, and then they take a CAD to fill out the rest.

Tau and Necrons have such good "Decurion" detachments they'd be foolish not to take them.

I'm generally not fond of the SM Gladius, as I find it too restrictive. It forces you to take a lot of mediocre units, when I want to take fun stuff. So I tend to double CAD, or CAD + Formation to take what I want.

Nids have some nifty formations, as do Blood Angels. In regards to BA, they ideally gear towards CC so they shouldn't be in situations where ObSec plays a role. They should kick the ass of whatever is within 3" of themselves, so assault benefits are generally better to ensure you wipe your opponent at close range.

If you play in an environment where formations and superformations are restricted, its a valid question?

yes.

The Vraks Unending Horde detachment for Vraks Renegades, whilst I wouldn't strictly call it better than a standard CAD, can certainly both be fun and useful.

Also, the Nemesis Strike Force for GK is pretty nifty as well, even if it's just for turn 1 deep strikes (at the very least).

Blood Angels have a decent one if you like assaulting people and using more elites. Nothing too amazing though.

One of the best detachments in the game that is not a superformation (like the Decurion) and not a formation, is the Dark Angels Ravenwing Strike Force. It is very solid, especially since it got an FAQ to make it legal to take characters on a bike who aren't Sammael.

As for the earlier ObSec discussion, Khorne Daemonkin are an army that can be run in multiple ways. They can do pretty well with a CAD and the Gorepack formation. Being able to deep strike some ObSec Bloodletters is nice, but getting +1 Blood Tithe per turn with the Blood Host detachment is also very juicy, even if you must take Possessed to get it. Chaos in general has some of the cheapest ObSec units in the form of Cultists (CSM/KDK) and Nurglings (Daemons). Only cheaper ObSec might be Farsight Enclaves Tau as they can take single Crisis suits as troops.

"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

The Flesh Tearers detachment is the cream of the crop when you want drop pods for an IoM faction like Skitarii or Grey Knights.

The Company of the Great Wolf detachment is a very powerful way to run Thunder Wolves.

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

Real Space Raiders for Dark Eldar and Leviathan Detachment for Tyranids are both usefull.

 Zewrath wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

This problem is easily solved by including Azrael in the squad. He gives the entire squad a 4++ save which can be rerolled when the priest uses his hymns. If you choose Azzy as your warlord, you can choose the trait that gives his unit FNP when they are within 3" of an objective, which shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a squad that big.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

This problem is easily solved by including Azrael in the squad. He gives the entire squad a 4++ save which can be rerolled when the priest uses his hymns. If you choose Azzy as your warlord, you can choose the trait that gives his unit FNP when they are within 3" of an objective, which shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a squad that big.

Against instakilling scat lasers that gives a million wounds? No.
Against wyverns that gives 2 million wounds? Hardly.
Manticores? Nope.

This isn't about your save value, this is about how easy it is for high tier armies to throw out obscene amount of firepower that either wounds on 2+, ignores cover or a combination of those two, in which case this edition has never made it easier for people to wipe out blobs and it is also the reason why MSU is king.

 Zewrath wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

This problem is easily solved by including Azrael in the squad. He gives the entire squad a 4++ save which can be rerolled when the priest uses his hymns. If you choose Azzy as your warlord, you can choose the trait that gives his unit FNP when they are within 3" of an objective, which shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a squad that big.

Against instakilling scat lasers that gives a million wounds? No.
Against wyverns that gives 2 million wounds? Hardly.
Manticores? Nope.

This isn't about your save value, this is about how easy it is for high tier armies to throw out obscene amount of firepower that either wounds on 2+, ignores cover or a combination of those two, in which case this edition has never made it easier for people to wipe out blobs and it is also the reason why MSU is king.

5 Scatterbikes would cause this unit to take less than 3 wounds per round of shooting, I'd call that pretty damn survivable. I don't recall ever reading anyone call a 4++ rerollable save bad before this point.

How on earth are you getting rerolls against scatterbikes when hymns only work in assault phase?

 Zewrath wrote:

Spoiler:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

This problem is easily solved by including Azrael in the squad. He gives the entire squad a 4++ save which can be rerolled when the priest uses his hymns. If you choose Azzy as your warlord, you can choose the trait that gives his unit FNP when they are within 3" of an objective, which shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a squad that big.

Against instakilling scat lasers that gives a million wounds? No.
Against wyverns that gives 2 million wounds? Hardly.
Manticores? Nope.

This isn't about your save value, this is about how easy it is for high tier armies to throw out obscene amount of firepower that either wounds on 2+, ignores cover or a combination of those two, in which case this edition has never made it easier for people to wipe out blobs and it is also the reason why MSU is king.

5 Scatterbikes would cause this unit to take less than 3 wounds per round of shooting, I'd call that pretty damn survivable. I don't recall ever reading anyone call a 4++ rerollable save bad before this point.

How on earth are you getting rerolls against scatterbikes when hymns only work in assault phase?

Oh well, my bad. 5 wounds then, which still doesn't sound bad by any means.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

Spoiler:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Astra Militarum, for example. If you're within 3" of an opponent, you're exactly one assault phase away from being wiped out, no matter what it is. So I'd forgo ObSec for ANY OTHER BENEFIT when playing AM. Even the crappy Formations are better than a CAD's benefit."

You must be playing a different AM than I am. 50 dudes with a priest alone is a hell of a unit to wipe out in one assault phase.

Was thinking the same, then I realized that what he ofcourse meant to say was that 50+ blobs gets wiped out with minimal effort from any decent shooting army released post decurion army build. Scatbikes, Necron bikes with ignore cover, Wyverns, SM drop pods with flamers etc. etc. He didn't mean melee, ofcourse, since melee is one of the most abysmal mechanics in 40k.

This problem is easily solved by including Azrael in the squad. He gives the entire squad a 4++ save which can be rerolled when the priest uses his hymns. If you choose Azzy as your warlord, you can choose the trait that gives his unit FNP when they are within 3" of an objective, which shouldn't be too hard to achieve with a squad that big.

Against instakilling scat lasers that gives a million wounds? No.
Against wyverns that gives 2 million wounds? Hardly.
Manticores? Nope.

This isn't about your save value, this is about how easy it is for high tier armies to throw out obscene amount of firepower that either wounds on 2+, ignores cover or a combination of those two, in which case this edition has never made it easier for people to wipe out blobs and it is also the reason why MSU is king.

5 Scatterbikes would cause this unit to take less than 3 wounds per round of shooting, I'd call that pretty damn survivable. I don't recall ever reading anyone call a 4++ rerollable save bad before this point.

How on earth are you getting rerolls against scatterbikes when hymns only work in assault phase?

Oh well, my bad. 5 wounds then, which still doesn't sound bad by any means.

Yeah, no that's not how it works. Your absurd blob guard suggestions requires DA as main detacment, LoW slot, 620 points minimum if we assume that the obligatory PCS is totally naked and the blob has 5x lascannons and a priest to support them. That's not counting in ANY other mandatory slots being fielded or equipped, if you want to compare them to a unit of scat bikes, then compare them to 3 scat bikes, which costs the same as your immobile blob. Your casaulties per Scatterbike unit also does not factor in one of THE most common buffs that are being given to them, Guide, which skewers the numbers even more, meanwhile your units are apparently allowed to be compared with 4++ and even re-rolls they aren't suppose to have.
Even if we made the comparison on 3 naked scatter bike units, you'd still lose a minimum of 15+ models with their shooting alone which means they can sometimes just zoom 1" in front of you, kill 15 grunst, remove models from the front and suddenly nothing stands 3" near the objective except for the bike. Furthermore, TFC, Wyverns and all similar barrage weapon can still inflict several wounds on the blob and perfectly snipe an special/heavy weapon squads you have and you'll be left with an impotent blob that doesn't achieve anything but being a useless point sink.

I know you like the idea that you've somehow "cracked" the code for how to run a blob squad but many, many other people have done the same and the results always speaks for itself; not gonna' happen. Blobs have been bad for several editions now and the further up we go on the edition the worse it seems to get.

In all honesty, I did ok with 20 - 30 man blobs in 6th. I only lost 2 games.

7th is a different story.

As has been pointed out, if you want to secure a single objective for 600 + points, with an admittedly large output of lasguns or 5 Heavies... be anyone's guest. Most games involve multiple objectives and if you've squandered 600 points to "OB SEC" a single objective... all the power to you.

The rest of your force, however, is not going to enjoy that ability. The rest of your force's blobs / vehicles are going to be slaughtered en masse as you advance to other objectives. The 10 or so that survive to the objective? They may be fearless, but that's 2 rounds of CC away from being wiped, at best. Or a single round of fire from a 5 man Scatterbike squad... Or being stomped out of existence by a double-tapping battlecannon followed by assault from D-Sword and Stomps. Don't forget the Heavy Stubbers!

So, in the interest of actually winning a game, instead of securing a single objective really, REALLY good, I'd take any benefit other than Ob Sec. Because I want to win the game, not just secure one objective.

So yeah, in all PRACTICAL sense, Ob Sec is worthless to Astra Militarum.