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So without wanting to start a flame war I wanted to pose the question - is it time to say well done to Games Workshop (at least on 40k which is why I'm posting here)?

Ignoring AoS the rest of their offering lately seems to me to be pretty awesome.

We've got the excellent Start Collecting boxes (I've bought two and may get more) which represent excellent value. We've had seemingly popular stand alone games - assassins, Calth, Deathwatch. I've only bought one but they seem to be a good way to get models at a serious discount and relatively well thought out standalone games included as well. We've seen HH start in plastic - bringing the price down, introducing new players, and promising more for the future. We've seen new board games slated for release in the future. We've seen the resurrection of specialist games (please, please, please do Necromunda). In North America they are going to try and bring in new players by releasing small starter kits with paints and brushes (why nowhere else though?). They are starting to dip their toe into the dangerous water of social media with new facebook pages. And I personally really like all the painting videos on their YouTube page (a few modelling ones would be appreciated though). Fluff wise it seems BL are doing their standard approach of some great books and some poor books but whatever people may think about the Beast Arises series it's really interesting that they are exploring the 32nd millennium for the first time. New codexes continue to come out, seemingly to mostly positive reviews, and the rate of releases is seemingly hyperactive (I personally would prefer a slower release schedule but I'm probably in a minority of one). And now it looks like GW will run competitive campaigns, perhaps with some kind of prizes.

I'm sure I've forgotten some things as well.

Now this isn't to say all is well (I'm looking at you £20/$33 mono-pose characters, sisters of battle, and lack of Chaos codex) and that GW couldn't still it all up (40k endtimes anybody?) but all in all this looks like a pretty awesome list of developments.

Now I know that many of us spend a lot of time cursing GW for their decision making but we spend a lot of time and money buying, building, painting, and playing a game we love and it seems that GW are starting to listen to at least some of the feedback they have received. So, for the time being, I say kudos to them!

The balance is crap, armies are languishing with codices that seem to be written for a game that ended 2 editions ago, the rules to the game cannot decide on what kind of game it is intended to be, and, when it comes to the crunch of many rules, it appears that the writers have forgotten what they wrote from one sentence to the next.

So, no, not time for kudos. GW long ago lost sight of what their game was and why people played it, and nothing they have done recently really suggests that they've regained that vision.

They have recently made some surprisingly halfway intelligent moves lately. I will grant them that. Still, poor game balance and their recent attitude of "who needs errata and FAQs when you can just Forge the Narrative" leaves a lot to be desired.

There are some positives, but there are 2 major issues.

-They lost their marketing position.
-The game is so unbalanced that point values no longer represent the power of the army.

Even though I'm on a sort of break from 40k, I still have to give kudos to GW just on their recent releases. Good models in modest boxes, the double sized Wash paints friggin floored me and I was way more excited for that than I think is healthy, new moulds have been looking good and the secondary games and the models that come with them tickle that fringe interest of a lot of groups. Yes, I think they deserve praise for that.

But a lot of damage has been done to the players themselves. The hobby can hurt sometimes and the price is a big part of it. Price keeps going up for what appears to be no reason to the uninformed (like me). The rules and the old codecies of my preferred armies have finally pushed me to take a break. They have a bit of a way to go before I spend more money on it, and a long as feth way before some other folks here will give them a lowest denomination of their respective currency. It's a bit silly to throw more money at an army that has been left behind till 2017 (CSM). There's about five Factions now that feel like Sisters of Battle players...

They should bring back Devlan Mud, in all of its smelly glory. They wil get super kudos for that.

Here are some local effects . I have no idea if similar things also happen in your region. ( lets hope not )

- A dramatic decrease of the amount of indep 40k events. ( on a national scale )
- A dramatic decrease of the amount of games played in stores ( on a regional scale)
- A big local stores that used to sell ~ 50% gw from the moment it started has decided to stop selling it and went for more innovative games that sell better. This is not the only flgs that is no longer supporting it.
- GW is directly responsible for this by creating competing but low quality one man GW stores in all those cities.
-The new local gwstore in my city is ran by a dude who had to learn 40k from his costumers.
- The "sold out" boxes are still sitting on the shelf of the local indep store that still sells gw.
- The game is so unbalanced that you can actually scare away opponents with your casual list on accident.
- This all results in me having to put more and more effort in finding a good game and I don't like that at all. Sure you could still play a ~1000 points game vs a beginner with a incoherent army in a GW store that owns 10 pieces of terrain and 2 4x4 tables once every few weeks but this is just not the same gaming experience as it used to be.


I do have to give them kudos on most of the changes mentioned by the OP, but I don't feel that they would solve most of the (local) issues on the short term. What they do is pour more players into the game. This is good, but they need to fix the game and the quality of their stores in order to keep those new players playing.

 Psienesis wrote:
The balance is crap, armies are languishing with codices that seem to be written for a game that ended 2 editions ago, the rules to the game cannot decide on what kind of game it is intended to be, and, when it comes to the crunch of many rules, it appears that the writers have forgotten what they wrote from one sentence to the next.

So, no, not time for kudos. GW long ago lost sight of what their game was and why people played it, and nothing they have done recently really suggests that they've regained that vision.

Pretty much my feelings.

If you have to ignore any part of their releases, their releases aren't that good. As Azrael said in another post, they're hitting a lot of lot hanging fruit, but not a lot of substance.

Either fix the core rules, or release BFG in 100% plastic with the 2010FAQ.

We've had seemingly popular stand alone games - assassins, Calth, Deathwatch. I've only bought one but they seem to be a good way to get models at a serious discount and relatively well thought out standalone games included as well.

I wouldn't really call the board games popular or a discount either, my LGS sat on it's copies for months, despite promoting them and only was able to sell them off when it lowered the price to ~60€ during a clearance sale. The rules, at least for Assasins are quite shallow, and at a price of ~100€ for Assassins and 140€ for Deathwatch extremely expensive for a board game. Sure, the assasins are cheaper than if you were to buy single releases, but that's only due to the fact that they're shelling out the small, individual, single-frame, single-pose Assasins for 25€ a piece.

The starter boxes were pretty much the only thing I'd give GW Kudos for in the last 24 months.

 Blacksails wrote:

Either fix the core rules, or release BFG in 100% plastic with the 2010FAQ.

Releasing BFG is a bit late now. X-wing has already made its name, and is actually quite good. It is not likely that BFG is able to compete to it. It has to start from a small player base, an obscure IP, expensive unpainted unassembled miniatures and rules that use an unusually large a table. I would love it if they brought it back, but i feel it would be just an other small board game like release rather then a the big change GW needs to make in order to regain their top position.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just look at it

Well, lets see what GW have actually done:
-Neglected most of the armies
-Of the recent releases almost all of them have promoted Mary Sue Marines. They now have their own: Faction, two sub factions, board game and t cap it all they have an entire game to themselves (30K)
-Prices continue to soar
-Models that have been needing an update for over a decade now are still stuck in their late 90's casts (SoB
-Other models that have needed an update for a long time are still stuck with their bad plastics (looking at you ape-man Cadians)
-WHFB. The poor game that was butchered by over enthusiastic ADHD style rules that made certain elements far too good and then blown up because GW's writers where to lazy to fix their own mistakes
-Age of Sigmarines
-6th edition 40K
-7th edition 40K
-Vehicle rules that make no sense
-Game balance has reached a point whereby, unless you are playing with two codexes from the same era (pre/post Decurion) points no longer matter
-Formations
-Many codexes desperately in need of an update are being neglected in favour of updating the big five yet again (and yes, I do count 'flavour of Marine X' as 'generic Marine')
-40K cannot decide if it wants to be a small scale in depth skirmish game, a larger scale platoon on platoon game or an epic scale amassed battle game. The current attempt to cram all three modes into one game is not working
-Turn 1 alpha strikes are far too common and often very hard to recover from
-The average game board is far, far, far, too small for the game being played on it

Well, that is all I can come up with for now but I think that it does give a rough (and very broad) picture of what is wrong with GW right now.

The rules are more messy, than ever before. Maybe they are changing, but it is still too little.
Just look at the CAD-formation-chaos. Its so sad.
Or the crappy codices(CSM, Tyranids, Sisters and the most of the half-backed stuff like Skitarii, CM, KDK,...).
Oh, and they have killed WFB.

GW under the new CEO (I assume he is the one that is causing this apparent departure from Mr Kirby's Wild Ride) has made some good marketing and product decisions with their latest releases being more of what the customers want. For that they deserve a lot of positive feedback but the cancer of 40k is the rules and the 2015 trend of turning everything up to 11 creating this massive divide between the 7.0 (and the few 6 edition dexes out there) and the 7.5 stuff. Hopefully (I know hope is the first step on the road to disappointment) GW will take steps over the rest of 2016 to start fixing their rules and holding some accountability for their rules department for making poor rules (which bad rules ultimately hurts sales in the long run).

I think they have done a lot around the edges, so to speak, and the next thing must be to completely reorganise 40K core rules.

The game is in pretty terrible state right now. Pay to Win Formations are destroying things. Poor rules balance make the game unplayable for some right outside the gate. Other games are nipping at the heels and grabbing up players.

On the modeling side, I would say people are 50/50. Some people like the more detailed designs, but a lot of people hate the new aesthetic. After chapter house, GW is trying to add in far more trademarkable details to their stuff and has attempted to design models so they are harder for third party bit sellers. Also some of the art direction is just plain poor. (seems like they are copying Warmachine's over the top cartoonly designs a bit)

The majority of GW decisions they have made in the past year as has been bad for the hobby. It is the typical money grab quick fix GW shenanigans that is causing players to leave. They also still don't seem to realize why their nearest competitors are doing well. They still don't talk to their players and actively punish local game stores. They stuff is still over priced and they still not providing support to whole factions. It is certainly not time to give them any kudos.

This is what I love about Dakka. Lot's of different opinions, expressed in a respectful way (to me as the OP, not GW so much ).

So after reading others comments I think I stand by my statement of Kudos to GW. However, I will qualify it - kudos to the marketing, customer outreach, and model design. Not so much Kudos to the rules. I've just got back into playing 40k after about 15 years out of it and I'm loving playing (like many people here). But do I think it's perfect? No. Do I think the rules could be simplified and the armies a bit more balanced? Yes. I would definitely enjoy it more with better rules. So I guess what I'm saying is well done new CEO. You seem to be listening and you seem to making a good start. Keep it up. But for gods sake please keep the armies relatively equal (of course true equality is impossible but it would be good if all armies were competitive and every unit was actually useful in some way) and please simplify/fix the rules. Rapidly updated FAQs would be a good place to start. As would making no individual, roughly human sized model cost more than £10/$15. I mean seriously. We can get Cadians or Cultists for as little as £1.20/$2 each but you want us to pay £20/$33 for a Blood Angels Chaplain?

I definitely think it's a long overdue step in the right direction. The start collecting boxes have made me start a new army, which is money gw wasn't likely to get otherwise. I know a lot of people disagree but I for one am really enjoying 7th ed. I have half of the AOS box and have yet to use it, however again thanks to the start collecting boxes I might even give it a go.

They have been pushing product really well, I will give them that. My Factions start collecting box is garbage so I a not to excited about that, but again it boils down to rules that make the box useless. I don't think I have seen anyone bring a Deff Dread to a game in years, and a unit of nobz? No thanks I already have 18 I don't use.

Realistically GW's #1 problem isn't in box sets or mini games, it is in the rules writing. Nobody there seems to know what the others are doing, Orks, AM and a few other codex's came out as utter garbage, hey thats ok because were nerfing everyone, i get it. Then Necrons, Eldar and SM come out and make anyone with a 7.0 codex cringe and basically put there army on the shelf for a bit, or go to every game against 7.5 codex's knowing they stand little to NO chance of winning.

Oh, these threads are always fun.
1. Azrael13 turns back the clock an hour again, saying it is GW's end even though it isn't.
2. Talys believes GW didn't do anything wrong in the first place, despite Kirby being one of the worst things they had to go through.
3. Most people are just kinda in the middle or just don't care.

You can't ignore AoS. GW has -canned a whole game, squatted whole armies, and seems to be doubling down on AoS, We'll see how this shakes out for them after they release the 2015 earnings report.

If AoS does well enough, we just might see 40K get canned and receive the AoS treatment.

Actually we CAN ignore AoS, because 40k has less issues with making money.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Actually we CAN ignore AoS, because 40k has less issues with making money.

You say that now but.....

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Oh, these threads are always fun.
1. Azrael13 turns back the clock an hour again, saying it is GW's end even though it isn't.

Go on, misrepresent harder.

I have never claimed GW were going to do die, other than to state that if they continued on their current trajectory that was an inevitable end at some point.

Guess what? I was fething right, that's why we're seeing public acknowledgment of those issues and attempts to address some of them. (With more to come, I'm sure.)

If you're going to call people out in threads, at least have the courtesy to name check someone who actually said what you claim, or to demonstrate an understanding of that person's actual arguments.

Just to highlight how utterly baseless your comment was, here's something I posted yesterday in MajorTom's near identical thread...

 Azreal13 wrote:
I've frequently copped it from the pro GW crowd for being a hater. (But just as frequently disavowed them of this notion, and usually kicked their own arguments square in the nards for good measure.)

However, that's always been a misrepresentation, I've always really wanted them to do well, and I've always been happy to praise where I've felt it's warranted. That I so often get accused of a negative stance is purely a reflection on my feelings of GW's actions, not some fixed view.

Taking all that into account.. maybe?

There's a lot which is encouraging, but, so far, it's all been low hanging fruit, either product releases that were almost guaranteed to sell well and be well received (plastic Heresy, GSC) or simple, low risk, low cost (reinstating global social media.)

40K and Sigmar still remain games I'm not currently excited to play, but I guess spending time nearly every day working on my 30K/CSM force after not touching a brush or glue in months tells its own story?

I won't be happy that a corner has been turned until I see a determined attempt to offer a core game that tries to offer an even contest between players where the majority of the outcome is determined by player agency and not by whatever army book is on the upswing or whoever brings the most broken combo.

But, for now, I'm cautiously optimistic.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, it's the fething end! It's al over for GW.

feths sake. Sometimes people are really lucky there's rule #1

I agree with the OP, credit where credit is due. While the rules are about as palatable as the crap in the toilet as before, GW's Start Collecting! boxes are a good way to go. They harken back to the Battle Forces of old, where they weren't exactly cheap, but were very good value and came with just enough decent units that would make you crack your wallet for them.

In addition, I saw that they re-opened their blogs again, which is awesome if they could start posting stuff about the hobby instead of advertisements. The announcements of various events and contests is another step in the right directing (again, only time will tell if these actually pan out to be something good or if it's just another kick to the nuts).

And finally, the whole rumor about Battle for Vedros. That has a really promising future provided there are no screw-ups to be had.

GW still have many, many issues (namely, lack of FAQs, ridiculous rules, even more ridiculous prices, etc...) but they deserve a kudos when they do accomplish something good. Let's hope this trend marks a true shift for GW.

Someone get Slayer-fan an ambulance, cause they just got rekt.

Oh, and @oldzoggy, but plastic space cathedrals! I love star wars, but nothing quite compares to the plastic IN cruisers. The advantage to the metal battleships was they could be used in self-defense should the need arise, seeing as how fething heavy those things are. I also want plastic Eldar fleets.

He even spelled my username wrong...

Wow, you are just a ray of sunshine as always...

To the OP, I completely agree. People have been clamoring for starter sets and the start collecting box sets are, on the whole, quite good both in regards to price and playability. Giving the formation for the units, plus their rules, means that you can test out an army with a comparatively small price investment and, if you do not wish to invest further, you don't need to. It can be used as its own allied detachment for something else. Offering the rules for the Genestealer cult for free was also a great move.

Props to them for beginning to change course. What people often forget is that their major decisions are made years in advance, so it will in turn take years to shift. They have investors (and like damn near all companies with outside investors) have made poor decisions based on baseline profitability. In almost every way, those decisions proved to bite them in the ass. Luckily, instead of doubling down, they appear to be seeking to correct those mistakes and I do think that deserves acknowledgment.

Kudos for GW as a company producing miniatures for painters and collectors.
But no kudos for providing rule sets for the miniatures to be sold.

I respectively disagree on almost every point you brought up. The BFG came with everything you need and it provided two substantial fleets that were very easy to build upon. Adding ships was quite inexpensive too (in comparison to any other GW game), although I am not aware of how it compares to X-wing prices. Also, I always found BFG to be tons of fun with a small fleet. The rules were easy to learn and it was always quick to play too. Plus, they just released the BFG computer game, which is visually stunning at the very least. I haven't played it so I cannot comment on the quality of the game itself. Of course, everyone's experience may have been different.

In fairness to X-wing, all those points you brought up defending BFG equally apply to X-wing, probably even more so. Rules are even simpler, better balanced, and as tactically engaging. Prices are fairly similar, though its hard to tell now as the second hand market for BFG has battleships going for nearly $100 depending on the state of the model.

I probably wouldn't complain if BFG was re-printed to be in line with X-wing/Armada style rules. Probably pretty simple to convert over, and I'm almost sure someone is probably doing that.

Anyways, off topic tangent.

I just like spaceships.