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So, Tau are my favourite (and only) faction right now, but they're also the most hated -- or least fun to play against -- according to this thread.

Leaving aside issues of bias and prejudice, which we're not going to be able to do much about in the span of one game, you still have the issue of Tau being really shooty and making a lot of the game non-interactive. Obviously, if you close with them they fold like a wet paper bag, but until then -- or if you get some bad charge / reserve rolls -- you're just target practice.

So, speaking as a Tau player, how do I make the game more fun for the people I play against ... and increase the odds of people wanting to get into a pickup game with me? Besides using lots of LoS-blocking terrain (which I personally enjoy) and refraining from using Riptides unless my opponent has something equivalent.

(One thing I thought of already: I bought an extra deck, and can offer to let my opponent use the new Tactical Supremacy objectives, which get rid of a lot of unwinnable ones and give out higher rewards for smashing stuff in assault. I also refuse to redraw my own unwinnable objectives, and instead try to plan around those being in the deck.)

EDIT FROM TWELVE PAGES LATER: This thread has given me the impression that Tau get hate way out of proportion to any reasonable analysis of their codex, just because everything about them rubs certain people the wrong way. If we were a low-tier list they would still find reasons to hate us, because just by existing we force them to think differently about how they play, how the 40k universe works, and how to regard RL people who are different from them.

There are valid complaints to be made, about playing against Tau. But when I posted this thread I assumed everyone already knew them, and I even mentioned them above. I thought that was all the time we needed to spend dwelling on that. I was looking for ways to get around these complaints, not to enable scrubs who don't want to change up the way that they play, but so I can change up the way that I play, to make things more challenging / interesting. Because believe it or not, I don't enjoy sitting on gunlines and being unable to contest the rest of the board. Or curbstomping fellow newbies.

Tactical objectives don't make the game more fun or more interactive. They increase chances of winning.

"Oh, I get a point for standing on objective 1? Yaaaaaay."

There is no way to make Tau more enjoyable to play against. The way that Tau plays is "hide far, far away from the opponent and shoot lots of guns that ignore cover, LOS, etc."

It's roughly equivalent in fun level to playing against mass wave serpents in 6th ed and mass scatter bikes in 7th.

Even if you used nothing but fire warriors, playing would still be rage inducing for me as a space marine player. "Oh, your guys fire at S5? They're better than my boltguns? Really?"

Don't use the most powerful units.

Bring a bottle of something and tell your opponent to take a shot every time they contest an objective.

Traditio wrote:
Tactical objectives don't make the game more fun or more interactive. They increase chances of winning.

"Oh, I get a point for standing on objective 1? Yaaaaaay."

But it promotes control of board and non-static gameplay.
I immensely prefer tactical objectives, given how it means that you are forced to fight according to the game's random chance, and increases generalmanship, making you adapt on the fly. Static gunline or charge up to the enemy guns just feels so dull to me.

Traditio wrote:
Even if you used nothing but fire warriors, playing would still be rage inducing for me as a space marine player. "Oh, your guys fire at S5? They're better than my boltguns? Really?"

I do apologise that no army can be better than your Space Marines, but it so happens that other armies are allowed to.

Honestly, there will always be people complaining. From what you've said, you already do a good job, maybe try out some themed lists?

I'm going to be starting a small Tau army myself soon, focusing on recon, stealth, and aerial assault. Of course, this means nothing bigger than a Riptide for me, and anything larger than a Stealth Suit will be used sparingly. But due to you preference of lots of LOS blockers, I'd say that your playstyle seems fine.

I'll tell you how to make the game more enjoyable against tau:

Round up all the tau players and have them write petitions, en masse, to GW to change the tau codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:But it promotes control of board and non-static gameplay.

You should be striving for those things with or without tactical objectives. "Non-static gameplay" is pretty much what a fun game is. Thus the reason Tau are horrible to play against.

The fact that I get an extra point for having my guys stand on this spot doesn't change the fact that I'm playing against an army that stands in one spot and shoots a ridiculous number of ignores cover, often ignores LOS, etc. shots every turn.

Not to mention their JSJ nonsense, their overwatch nonsense, etc.

I do apologise that no army can be better than your Space Marines, but it so happens that other armies are allowed to.

Why should a 9 ppm model base infantry, a model that represents, for all intents and purposes, an average, rank and file infantryman in a relatively new, fledgling society have a better gun than my 14 ppm ELITE, GENETICALLY ALTERED SUPER SOLDIER DEMIGOD?

Traditio wrote:
I'll tell you how to make the game more enjoyable against tau:

Round up all the tau players and have them write petitions, en masse, to GW to change the tau codex.

Not sure how constructive this is, and OP is certainly able to try and change their playstyle to affect gameplay. This is not the only solution.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:But it promotes control of board and non-static gameplay.

You should be striving for those things with or without tactical objectives. "Non-static gameplay" is pretty much what a fun game is. Thus the reason Tau are horrible to play against.

The fact that I get an extra point for having my guys stand on this spot doesn't change the fact that I'm playing against an army that stands in one spot and shoots a ridiculous number of ignores cover, often ignores LOS, etc. shots every turn.

Not to mention their JSJ nonsense, their overwatch nonsense, etc.

Okay, but that's only a single style of play. Pretty much any army can play gunline. Marines can easily pull it off with Scouts, TFC, Devastators and suchlike. And given the potential of Gladius transports to outmaneuver and reach all of those objectives, a Gladius force can easily win Maelstrom missions.

So, OP, another idea: try to play non-gunline Tau. Use Devilfish squads and other units suchlike to play a fast, mobile force which fights at the close range.

I do apologise that no army can be better than your Space Marines, but it so happens that other armies are allowed to.

Why should a 9 ppm model base infantry, a model that represents, for all intents and purposes, an average, rank and file infantryman in a relatively new, fledgling society have a better gun than my 14 ppm ELITE, GENETICALLY ALTERED SUPER SOLDIER DEMIGOD?

Oh yes. The race which has always been described as being innovative and technically exceptional should have no bearing on the stagnant, decaying archaic procedure of the Imperium. [/sarcasm]
Genetically engineered is represented by T4, as opposed to T3 of a guardsman. How that affects the strength of their gun, I will never know. But that fledging society is supported in all accounts of fluff as being very well equipped and technologically powerful.

If we wanted true-to-life marines, there would be only about five on the table in a 1000 point game.

I trash talk Tau a lot, but it just so happens that a fortuitous situation has me aquiring a Tau army. I don't plan on using Riptides, Stormsurges or Piranha Wings, instead relying on mass Crisis Suits. I've got only one source of Markerlights and one squad with a Buff Sergeant, and both of those additions are there to help deal with Lords of War when I should happen to come across them (which is often enough, blah).

By not taking a TripTide wing or spamming Markerlights, I'm basically playing as a cross between IG and Space Marines, both of which can tear my force a new one if competently piloted. A lot of the hate on Tau comes from things like the OSC, massed Riptide spam, 109's, and ignores cover for everything, and that's from personal experience. By not utilizing those powerful units and tactics, as well as having the majority of my force operating within 24" of the enemy, I'm required to then use more movement and tactics to pull off objectives.

Will I still get hate? Yes. Is it easier to win than with my IG force? Yes. Will I have an auto-win, rage-inducing button every game? No.

It isn't going to be easy, but by playing with a more varied list than what people are winning tourney games and by proving to your opponent that you're not a WAAC anime fan, you'll reap the rewards in a social context, which is really what the core of this game is.

There's a reason that "Forge the Narrative" exists; this game will never be balanced to a pure tournament level, so it's on the players to make it fun. Any time there is cutthroat competition in life people are going to end up butthurt. Save the power units for tournaments and bring out some Vespid and Tiger Sharks!

As a general rule the more infantry and tanks you take this edition vs bikes and MC/GMC will help to make the game more fun and even against many factions. That's been my experience as a marine players.

Oh god so much bs flaming in this thread.

Here is what I would do to make a game against Tau more enjoyable:

1. Leave the big guys at home, like the riptide and the stormsurge. You know your local meta better than me, and if other people have plenty of options to deal with them like being eldar or have access to mass grav, take one or two with you, but not more.

2. Keep the equipment low. Tau have some nasty stuff like every guy can get interceptor for 5 points, or a buffmonder which gives everyone twinlinked and ignore cover. Put these options on some dudes but don´t overextend with it.

3. Reduce your amount of shots. Instead of putting in hordes of Broadsides with rockets, maybe equip them with the railguns or take a normal Hammerhead with you.

4. Don´t use that special formation or detachment thing where 3 or more units can combine their fire. The rule is good, maybe to good and you will most likely run into a rule discussion concerning the sharing of special rules while combining your fire.

5. Experiment. Again, I don´t know how hard your meta is, so I would just experiment with stuff. Play a fish of furry, put in some fliers, take kroot, do a massive frontline rush with devilfishes and so on. Don´t just play the normal gunline with suicide crisis.

 GreenShoes wrote:
I trash talk Tau a lot, but it just so happens that a fortuitous situation has me aquiring a Tau army. I don't plan on using Riptides, Stormsurges or Piranha Wings, instead relying on mass Crisis Suits. I've got only one source of Markerlights and one squad with a Buff Sergeant, and both of those additions are there to help deal with Lords of War when I should happen to come across them (which is often enough, blah).

By not taking a TripTide wing or spamming Markerlights, I'm basically playing as a cross between IG and Space Marines, both of which can tear my force a new one if competently piloted. A lot of the hate on Tau comes from things like the OSC, massed Riptide spam, 109's, and ignores cover for everything, and that's from personal experience. By not utilizing those powerful units and tactics, as well as having the majority of my force operating within 24" of the enemy, I'm required to then use more movement and tactics to pull off objectives.

Will I still get hate? Yes. Is it easier to win than with my IG force? Yes. Will I have an auto-win, rage-inducing button every game? No.

It isn't going to be easy, but by playing with a more varied list than what people are winning tourney games and by proving to your opponent that you're not a WAAC anime fan, you'll reap the rewards in a social context, which is really what the core of this game is.

There's a reason that "Forge the Narrative" exists; this game will never be balanced to a pure tournament level, so it's on the players to make it fun. Any time there is cutthroat competition in life people are going to end up butthurt. Save the power units for tournaments and bring out some Vespid and Tiger Sharks!

The fact that your playing Tau. It could be mass Vespid, Kroot, and Sniper Drones means they will bitch. They will always bitch. There is nothing you can do to not make them bitch unless its not play Tau. At some point your going to get sick of using the same units and want to try anything better and they will rage more. Despite how unfair Necrons are and Eldar are almost no one comes online to bitch about it. Tau are certified to be allowed to be bitched about or something. I don't know.

You have three options. 1. Learn to feast on their tears 2. Ignore them and play Tau 3. Don't play Tau.

I usually feast on their tears these days since nothing I tried to do made them stop whining. So may as well justify their whining.

 Gamgee wrote:
I usually feast on their tears these days since nothing I tried to do made them stop whining. So may as well justify their whining.

I seem to recall that's the fifth stage of playing Eldar, according to a BoLS comic. ^^;

Personally, I'd rather just not play against anyone who's going to complain no matter what. But I do want interactive and fluffy battles, and gaming partners who are as excited to play as I am.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, OP, another idea: try to play non-gunline Tau. Use Devilfish squads and other units suchlike to play a fast, mobile force which fights at the close range.

That's actually what I'm most interested in. ^^; I want to use all the tools at my disposal, from deep striking Crisis suits to infiltrating Kroot blobs, in order to contest objectives and respond to new threats. And I really like Devilfish, despite their rep for being too expensive. I just recently built a whole team of Breachers, and I'm looking forward to the high-risk, high-reward playstyle they enable.

 GreenShoes wrote:
I trash talk Tau a lot, but it just so happens that a fortuitous situation has me aquiring a Tau army. I don't plan on using Riptides, Stormsurges or Piranha Wings, instead relying on mass Crisis Suits.

Have you considered playing Farsight? Mass Crisis suits (and a lack of superheavies) is fluffy for them.

I personally want to try out a Stormsurge, but I'd have a hard time justifying it narratively for my cadre (they're basically park rangers), and I wouldn't want to bring out a superheavy unless my opponent also has one that they wanted to use.

Riptides I feel are more bark than bite, and have a reputation way out of proportion to their actual firepower, perhaps because of how hard it feels like it is to kill them. A Riptide Wing might be fun to put against equally big models, but a single Riptide seems (to this newb) like it's more of a "Distraction Carnifex" / bullet sponge than an artillery piece.

Fauk wrote:
2. Keep the equipment low. Tau have some nasty stuff like every guy can get interceptor for 5 points, or a buffmonder which gives everyone twinlinked and ignore cover. Put these options on some dudes but don´t overextend with it.

Well, the thing about interceptor is that it's basically mandatory in a meta where drop pods and Chaos Daemons exist. >_>; As noninteractive as the stereotypical Tau gunline is, a turn 1 opponent's-table-edge alpha strike could just as easily murder my list, especially with something like Skyhammer.

Fauk wrote:
3. Reduce your amount of shots. Instead of putting in hordes of Broadsides with rockets, maybe equip them with the railguns or take a normal Hammerhead with you.

I personally want to have squads of both rail- and missilesides, but I feel like the biggest problem here is just that players get intimidated by Tau rolling buckets of dice, which happens even at lower points levels with stuff like burst cannons and pulse fire. I'm not sure there's really a way to make that more "fun" or less threatening. Mostly I want to help provide other players with options to keep that from happening (like LoS blocking terrain), plus incentive to risk it (like the "+1 VP for assaulting" objectives), while giving myself incentive to move out of cover (like Breachers and tactical objectives).

Fauk wrote:
4. Don´t use that special formation or detachment thing where 3 or more units can combine their fire. The rule is good, maybe to good and you will most likely run into a rule discussion concerning the sharing of special rules while combining your fire.

I personally like Decurion-style formations, and I think it's pretty obvious that they're meant to share special rules (overcosted HQs that only buff a single unit have been a Tau weakness for a long time, and kept us from fully committing to either death star or MSU playstyles). I feel like I'd rather not use a Hunter Contingent unless my opponent has their own Decurion though, just to be fair.

Ill explain a great way to have more fun for yourself, and your opponent, while playing Tau.

Firstly, bring Kroot. As an Owner of nearly 12k points of Tau and having an almost full on Kroot Cavalcade of Riders and Knarlocs most times people exclaim a large amount of disdain when I tell them I play Tau until they see my army. Yes I own a few Riptides, (3 to be exact) even a R`Varna but I rarely use either of them and almost never take 2 in a list unless my opponents tells me it`s ok (Usually after a few games with them and we get chummy, in which he well knows I play to have fun, and can tell I`m holding back a great deal of the Tau Codex for good reason)

This usually happens when people want to test out of a particularly strong list against my Tau, which Im all for and give them a good fight. But aside that.

Bring Broadsides with HRRs Hammerheads with Cannons, take Vespids, hell bring Piranhas. Anything to spice up the current outlook on how Tau players are always trying to `Win by default`Bring a fun, new army match up to their expectations of Tau gameplay and you will both have fun.

As a player from both sides of the spectrum, I have had some massively disappointing games as of late against the top 3 armies considered least fun to play against and have even been trash talked by these said players when I bring semi competitive lists against their WAAC lists. No one likes those games. So just play for giggles and you`ll make great friends in the hobby quite quickly with your quirky lists and light spirit towards GWs blatant disrespect for Codex Balance (While you externally balance it yourself)

A thought that crossed my mind is removing the assault moves from them. Not having this prevents having a crutch on movement mistakes.

This would perhaps help me to enjoy the game knowing you couldn't run off. But depends on your meta ofcourse.

 GoliothOnline wrote:
Ill explain a great way to have more fun for yourself, and your opponent, while playing Tau.

I actually want to make an allied cadre of Kroot and Vespid, including Krootoxes and Shapers. ^^; Forge World doesn't sell Gnarlocs and stuff anymore though :c Idk when they'll change that.

I also have been hoping to try out an Ethereal + Sniper Drone Team combo, partly because it's unusual and partly because my park rangers need a way to tag megafauna from a safe distance.

I wonder if just bringing Ethereals in general helps. Partly because they encourage a closer-range, infantry-heavy playstyle, and partly because they grant VP when killed. I'm 2/3 of the way to having an Ethereal Council made up of the hover drone models.

I feel like it's kind of sad, though, that a lot of the advice that I'm getting here centres on "don't take stuff that makes people feel threatened." >_>; I wonder if there are also ways to help buff other lists, or psychologically prepare people. I really think the new Tactical Supremacy Objectives may be underrated, and that "+1 VP for Assault" cards might help change the meta if their use was widespread.

(Oh yeah, another interesting list to try would be melee-heavy Farsight ... )

The whole 'mobile warfare' idea feels like a very fluffy way to play Tau, too. They're supposed to be all about manoeuvre warfare, not standing still and shooting things. At least, that's the impression I get whenever I hear about them warring in the fluff,

Don't bring heavy rail rifles. They are so bad I almost guarantee a loss against all but the most brain dead opponents. They are terrible weapons even compared to Chaos codex.

I once took Broadsides with HRR and my opponent said I didn't have to after that game they were so ineffective. Yep.... they are bad. Maybe even as bad as Vespid but in a different way.

In six rounds of shooting they managed to dent one tank which he just repaired. He laughed. At my Tyranids opponent half my HRR shots were missing and the ones that hit were not inflicting enough casualties. I managed to barely win both these games through objectives but I had a game plan.

They were so sure the HRR were so OP and good I had to show them first hand how bad they were.

Which sucks since I love the model so bad.

Ugh, Tau are fun in fluff, but on the tabletop they are awful to play against. Even gunline IG is more exciting. Tau are just so static and boring.
You can make Tau more fun by including dynamic units like Kroot, Vespid or pretty much any unit that doesn't just sit on the edge of the board shooting all day (gunline units are fine, but an entire army of them is not) and by including lots and lots of scenery to force the Tau player to actually get moving in order to find good firing lines etc. Scenery also has the benefit giving assaulty armies at least a chance to get into combat and win.
That brings us to the second reason why Tau aren't much fun. They are too strong compared to most other armies in the game. Only thing to do about this is to not take more than one of the most powerful units, maybe take some weak units (if it is fluffy) and pray every day that GW will make the other codices good again.

So to sum it up, the best advice is to build an army that is dynamic, not static and to avoid the units that are generally seen as OP. Taking units that aren't used much in (competitive) Tau lists also helps.

It is the biggest shame FW stopped selling those fun Kroot models. I was actually about to start a Kroot-centered Tau force when they went OOP.

 eskimo wrote:
A thought that crossed my mind is removing the assault moves from them. Not having this prevents having a crutch on movement mistakes.

This would perhaps help me to enjoy the game knowing you couldn't run off. But depends on your meta ofcourse.

I've personally found Jump-Shoot-Jump to be a little bit overrated. >_>; At the least, it's a skill that I need to develop. Because the effective melta range on my crisis suits is 9", and while they can assault move an average of 7" a bad move (or poor die roll) can kill the whole squad. Obvs I can put plasma or missiles on them as well, but they're kind of my biggest anti-tank resource right now.

There are a lot of other hard to hit targets in 40k, like fliers, Ravenwing bikes, and 2++ Space Marine death stars. Do people hate Crisis suits just because getting pop-tarted by somewhat-expensive weapon platforms is more annoying than 2+ rerollable jink?

I think that the best solution might just be to hold stuff in reserves to deal with them (like when my IG opponent shot my Crisis suits off the board on his turn with an aircraft's lascannon). Something that I could do to help might be to point out "hey I'm going to deep strike these to deal with your tanks, are you sure those are all the models you want in reserves?" Pointing out stuff like that might help players adjust, to the unusual challenge that Tau present.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Don't bring heavy rail rifles. They are so bad I almost guarantee a loss

Aw, but they look so cool! :c

I guess I needed to buy Hammerheads for that "Tank Shock" organized play event anyway >_>; assuming a store within 5 hours of me is running it.

OP, I feel your pain. I was a dick recently in a casual game and played a list with both an OSC and a Stormsurge in it, against a friend of mine who plays Khorne Daemonkin. I was ashamed by how badly I destroyed him even though he brought a Kytan and two D-thirsters. He surrendered early in the game (on turn 1 actually), because I killed his Kytan with the Stormsurge's D-missiles and dropped one of the 'thirsters in my shooting phase and was probably going to table him by turn 3 at the latest. So I've been looking for ways to make it fun for us to play. Problem is, most of the lists I come up with even without the OSC and Stormsurge seem a bit strong for casual play, yet weak for tournament play. I like some of the suggestions in this thread, and will take some of them to heart. One thing I thought of was using the Start Collecting box formation as part of the army, as it isn't that strong but is more interesting than just a CAD.

Being a guard player I hate fighting tau almost as much as I hate fighting necrons.

Why? They out-shoot us, they out-manoeuvre us, they have abilities akin to our FRFSRF... but S5 and longer range, weapons that ignore LOS, god knows how many buffs, drones that make it a pain to shoot at anything.... then add the fact they have all those high toughness suits which mean I can't insta death them.... nor make them blow up in one shot. Oh then add to the fact you have kroot who can be decent in cc.

Yeah, real fun. It may just be Guards sad state of affairs atm (we're by no means chaos) but it's always incredibly frustrating fighting tau as guard.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Being a guard player I hate fighting tau almost as much as I hate fighting necrons.

Why? They out-shoot us, they out-manoeuvre us, they have abilities akin to our FRFSRF... but S5 and longer range, weapons that ignore LOS, god knows how many buffs, drones that make it a pain to shoot at anything.... then add the fact they have all those high toughness suits which mean I can't insta death them.... nor make them blow up in one shot. Oh then add to the fact you have kroot who can be decent in cc.

Yeah, real fun. It may just be Guards sad state of affairs atm (we're by no means chaos) but it's always incredibly frustrating fighting tau as guard.

The last time I got into a game against IG, they actually did lots of damage. ^^; They had like 3 tanks in a 1,000 point list, and brought in a fighter to lascannon my suits. I ended up winning, but that's because I had better manoeuvring and he set stuff up in a gunline.

I don't know what suggestions to make to an IG player, but if it's any consolation I'd let you use the Decurion / relics / formations / warlord traits / tactical objectives from Mont'ka if you wanted. ^^; Even if you had to proxy stuff.

EDIT: One thing that could help is to give people carapace armour. Our pulse weapons blast through "t-shirts" like nothing, but they only have AP 5. My IG opponent's infantry were pretty tough, and I don't think I ever managed to get rid of the ones in the ruins.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
Being a guard player I hate fighting tau almost as much as I hate fighting necrons.

Why? They out-shoot us, they out-manoeuvre us, they have abilities akin to our FRFSRF... but S5 and longer range, weapons that ignore LOS, god knows how many buffs, drones that make it a pain to shoot at anything.... then add the fact they have all those high toughness suits which mean I can't insta death them.... nor make them blow up in one shot. Oh then add to the fact you have kroot who can be decent in cc.

Yeah, real fun. It may just be Guards sad state of affairs atm (we're by no means chaos) but it's always incredibly frustrating fighting tau as guard.

The last time I got into a game against IG, they actually did lots of damage. ^^; They had like 3 tanks in a 1,000 point list, and brought in a fighter to lascannon my suits. I ended up winning, but that's because I had better manoeuvring and he set stuff up in a gunline.

I don't know what suggestions to make to an IG player, but if it's any consolation I'd let you use the Decurion / formations / warlord traits / tactical objectives from Mont'ka if you wanted. ^^; Even if you had to proxy stuff.

Tbh it's not an auto loose playing Tau, most of my games a pretty much draws when I fight them. It's more that if I fight tau I do well because either A) I'm extremely lucky or B) My opponent makes horrific mistakes.

Yes Vendetta's can be a threat to crisis teams, but they're hardly cheap and the amount of AA Tau can spam is quite scary. Our AA by comparison is either Vendetta's (good but expensive) or Hydras (Garbage). Then add the fact that vehicles (especially tanks) are pretty rubbish in 7th it's pretty obvious the result. Tbh I have a ton of tanks, it scares the hell out of my opponents when they see them, but they generally underperform. Guard arty is slightly different, but in the end you're still relying on blast weapons on a AV 12/10/10 platform which get torn to shreds by deepstriking and outflanking units.

Formations are all well and good, but guard formations are all very... 'meh'. Unless you start getting into much larger games and they start becoming a little OP. Again warlord traits are very 'meh'. The only two worthwhile guard formations is the "Emperors Fist Armored company" and the The "Emperors Wrath Artillery Company" which have major flaws, especially vs tau. Then add to the fact the harsh reality is tau can cover all those aspect.... but better.

I think, for me, all they need to do is scale back how powerful Markerlights are.

If they simply made it so markerlights gave enemy units a -1 cover penalty per markerlight burnt, rather than 2 simply remove all cover, I would be okay with that.

Because of their ability to bring loads of high-volume AP2/3 weaponry, and the fact it's super easy to ignore cover in their codex, it simply makes it so they remove all your units and there's no resistance on your part. The thrill of even super rare saves is gone.

 Jewelfox wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
A thought that crossed my mind is removing the assault moves from them. Not having this prevents having a crutch on movement mistakes.

This would perhaps help me to enjoy the game knowing you couldn't run off. But depends on your meta ofcourse.

I've personally found Jump-Shoot-Jump to be a little bit overrated. >_>; At the least, it's a skill that I need to develop. Because the effective melta range on my crisis suits is 9", and while they can assault move an average of 7" a bad move (or poor die roll) can kill the whole squad. Obvs I can put plasma or missiles on them as well, but they're kind of my biggest anti-tank resource right now.

There are a lot of other hard to hit targets in 40k, like fliers, Ravenwing bikes, and 2++ Space Marine death stars. Do people hate Crisis suits just because getting pop-tarted by somewhat-expensive weapon platforms is more annoying than 2+ rerollable jink?

I think that the best solution might just be to hold stuff in reserves to deal with them (like when my IG opponent shot my Crisis suits off the board on his turn with an aircraft's lascannon). Something that I could do to help might be to point out "hey I'm going to deep strike these to deal with your tanks, are you sure those are all the models you want in reserves?" Pointing out stuff like that might help players adjust, to the unusual challenge that Tau present.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:
Don't bring heavy rail rifles. They are so bad I almost guarantee a loss

Aw, but they look so cool! :c

I guess I needed to buy Hammerheads for that "Tank Shock" organized play event anyway >_>; assuming a store within 5 hours of me is running it.

That's the problem with out codex. The things that are good are amazing, but the things that are bad are near useless. We have no internal codex balance like Eldar or Necrons with vast swathes of choice. We have our few really outstanding things and that's it. We're lucky to have a few mid-tier units that would be great for casual play. A lot of choices are just terrible. Our fliers are useless for example. Without formations drones are mostly junk. Railguns of all types suck the big one and are unlikely to damage anything. Overcosted transports for troops (not likely to bother you). The transport is a mid-ter unit so its not that bad. THen stack on Kroot being better snipers than in melee, terrible vespid, and bad sniper drones. Without formations stealth suits die like fruit flies. Even with formations they die off like fruit flies hiding behind a cover save.

Before the new update came out I was hoping for massive internal changes. Instead our best stuff got better and our worst stuff got worse then all the new units to come out worked well and synergized well with the existing good stuff. Just over half my codex feels useless to me as a fairly competitive guy. Then when I want to make a list better and include a few good units they are way too good. So there is extremes and no middles in our codex. Kroot thankfully are one of our middle options. I like them a lot for toning down lists while not being super uselss. They are the AA star of mid tier Tau. Hahah.

The big thing with Tau is that they're very "gimmicky". Much like Eldar. They rely on tons of exceptions to the rules and ignoring lots of stuff, and that's inherently annoying. The MC suits (and accompanying absurd formations that dramatically ramp up their already incredible capabilities) really don't help.

Take the MC robots out and change Markerlights to -1 to cover save per markerlight instead of 2 markerlights ignoring cover entirely, and the the army becomes a lot more reasonable.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Tactical objectives don't make the game more fun or more interactive. They increase chances of winning.

"Oh, I get a point for standing on objective 1? Yaaaaaay."

But it promotes control of board and non-static gameplay.
I immensely prefer tactical objectives, given how it means that you are forced to fight according to the game's random chance, and increases generalmanship, making you adapt on the fly. Static gunline or charge up to the enemy guns just feels so dull to me.

Random chance doesn't require generalship, it simply stresses mobility in most cases, which varies from army to army, and really has very little to do with command ability. Responding to threats and opportunities is generalship, not "go take point #6 (doesn't matter if you hold it or not, just stand on it for a bit as long as no enemies are nearby), now kill something flying, now stab something (but it doesn't count if you shoot it), now manifest a psychic power (sucks if you have no psykers)", etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Random chance doesn't require generalship, it simply stresses mobility in most cases, which varies from army to army, and really has very little to do with command ability. Responding to threats and opportunities is generalship, not "go take point #6 (doesn't matter if you hold it or not, just stand on it for a bit as long as no enemies are nearby), now kill something flying, now stab something (but it doesn't count if you shoot it), now manifest a psychic power (sucks if you have no psykers)", etc.

Very good points, and as a narrative player I struggle to justify a lot of the objectives. Who is making my troops run across the board back and forth, and why? o_O

I personally like Cryostorm objectives partly because of this (and partly because they seem better balanced). The "objective" half of the deck largely involves fighting over drop sites for supplies with a huge storm incoming, and I can easily imagine airdrops being somewhat random when the wind's kicking up. I also like how Cities of Death says that one of your starting objectives is always 5-3, and I'm wondering if there are other ways of making it more interesting / fluffy.

Regarding Tau MCs, I kind of feel like that simulates anime mecha better than walker rules. Don't ask me to justify the Stormsurge and T'aunar's GMC status, though. >_>; They even called the Stormsurge a "ballistic suit" instead of a battlesuit.

Markerlights I agree may need rebalancing, but I'm not certain how. I kind of feel like the existence of "ignores cover" is a necessary counter, in the meta, to stuff like Ravenwing. It keeps you from going all-in on something that lists without IC can't handle.

People are still bitter from when they couldn't beat Tau three editions ago, and forget how much Tau got neutered in 7th. Even with the current codex update and warzone suppliments, Tau just on par with Gladius Marines, and still under Scatpack Eldar. Tau can be killed by the exact same lists people build to kill MEQ lists, which means they are on par with exactly half of the armies currently in the game. If you want game that are more fun, find people to play against that are less bitter.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
People are still bitter from when they couldn't beat Tau three editions ago

I'd wager 90%+ of the playerbase has no knowledge of Tau in 4E...because they never played it. Nor really were Tau the worst thing in 4E.

and forget how much Tau got neutered in 7th.

In what way did they get neutered?

Even with the current codex update and warzone suppliments, Tau just on par with Gladius Marines, and still under Scatpack Eldar.

So...basically they aren't the #1 most absurdly broken overpowered thing, but are absolutely on par with the other, still highly absurdly overpowered things that are only just under the #1 thing

That's not much of a defense there...

 Jewelfox wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Random chance doesn't require generalship, it simply stresses mobility in most cases, which varies from army to army, and really has very little to do with command ability. Responding to threats and opportunities is generalship, not "go take point #6 (doesn't matter if you hold it or not, just stand on it for a bit as long as no enemies are nearby), now kill something flying, now stab something (but it doesn't count if you shoot it), now manifest a psychic power (sucks if you have no psykers)", etc.

Very good points, and as a narrative player I struggle to justify a lot of the objectives. Who is making my troops run across the board back and forth, and why? o_O

Exactly, it really guts any narrative feeling.

Regarding Tau MCs, I kind of feel like that simulates anime mecha better than walker rules. Don't ask me to justify the Stormsurge and T'aunar's GMC status, though. >_>; They even called the Stormsurge a "ballistic suit" instead of a battlesuit.

The problem there is that they just end up being way harder to kill than equivalently costed tanks, and are available in FoC slots that those heavy battle tanks aren't, but put out equivalent (or greater) firepower with far more flexibility and maneuverability.

Markerlights I agree may need rebalancing, but I'm not certain how. I kind of feel like the existence of "ignores cover" is a necessary counter, in the meta, to stuff like Ravenwing. It keeps you from going all-in on something that lists without IC can't handle.

The cover modifying stuff is allright, but when basically any weapon in the army can be made to ignore all cover, it really is a lot more powerful than it should be. That said, stuff like Ravenwing bikers with 2+ rerollable jink saves also shouldn't be a thing either

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
People are still bitter from when they couldn't beat Tau three editions ago, and forget how much Tau got neutered in 7th. Even with the current codex update and warzone suppliments, Tau just on par with Gladius Marines, and still under Scatpack Eldar. Tau can be killed by the exact same lists people build to kill MEQ lists, which means they are on par with exactly half of the armies currently in the game. If you want game that are more fun, find people to play against that are less bitter.

SJ

Oh, Tau got "neutered"? They went from "the most OP army" to "only the second-most OP army"? I am sure CSM players feel so very sorry for you...
And no, I have never played anything before 6th and know no one else who did. Tau have always been OP and are still OP, alongside Eldar. Meanwhile, Orks and CSM have always been next to useless.

Use them to play Infinity, Alien Squad Leader, or Hordes of the Things.