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Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

Also, the AP mechanics is stupid now since it is almost irrelevant against vehicles, and very relevant against MC's. So you have S9 AP3 gun which is very effective against Vehicles, and completely ineffective against Riptides. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
The 'thing' with MC mechanics which is supposed to balance them out is that they can be vulnerable against weapons which Vehicles ignore. However by giving T6 5W Monstrous Creature 2+ save, you essentially give it Vehicle-like invulnerability combined with difficultness of killing it with one-shot heavy weapons - best of both worlds.

Just don't use Riptides and Stormsurges. Done. That's all you need to do. Even missilesides are quite reasonable compared to those units.

Martel732 wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

And that's why I'd let people know in advance, for pickup games, that I wanted to bring a Riptide. I don't want to blindside them with my bullet sponge Distraction Carnifex, and I don't want them to realize it isn't as powerful as they think it is based on how tough it is to kill without grav.

Honestly the best way to deal with one without Grav is to lock it in melee and then otherwise ignore it. You can put VRT on them to let them disengage, but for that you have to give up like FNP or Interceptor.

You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Well feth, I guess you're just screwed then aren't you? Maybe you ought to go complain in a thread designed for that purpose, like the "most hated armies" thread

Backfire wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are MCs or not. What I care is that these MCs are sucking up three or four or five times as many lascannon hits as their vehicular counterparts. The mechanics of MCs make all single shot anti-tank weapons worthless AND make high ROF weapons an uphill battle. The bizarro grav mechanic is the only thing that is actually effective against them.

Also, the AP mechanics is stupid now since it is almost irrelevant against vehicles, and very relevant against MC's. So you have S9 AP3 gun which is very effective against Vehicles, and completely ineffective against Riptides. It doesn't make a lick of sense.
The 'thing' with MC mechanics which is supposed to balance them out is that they can be vulnerable against weapons which Vehicles ignore. However by giving T6 5W Monstrous Creature 2+ save, you essentially give it Vehicle-like invulnerability combined with difficultness of killing it with one-shot heavy weapons - best of both worlds.

2+ armor is also disproportionately useful on an MC compared to an meq. Hence why Riptides are immortal, but terminators are chumpos.

Martel732 wrote:
Just don't use Riptides and Stormsurges. Done. That's all you need to do. Even missilesides are quite reasonable compared to those units.

Or you could ask if people are okay with playing against them, because maybe some other players don't whine as much about needing to bring grav

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

1. They're both wraithbone constructs, as are wraithguard. Even if you have a self-driving car, it's still a car.

2. Is the first bit really true? Are wraithknights actually piloted? I was under the impression that the "pilot" basically just hangs out and "talks" to the soul of the eldar inside of the construct. "Hey, bro, we need to take a left. Go that way!" "Affirmative."

And Space Marine armour is constructed. So what? Which is what a Wraithknight is. A Wraithlord is like an artificial limb.

Yes. Both are needed. But I'm not surprised you don't know what you're talking about.

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
[You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Jewelfox keeps suggesting things like short-range grav weapons and assaults.

I don't think that this person fully grasps the idea of what "jump" means in the stat line.

I don't think you read this thread's title

 Jewelfox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Just don't use Riptides and Stormsurges. Done. That's all you need to do. Even missilesides are quite reasonable compared to those units.

Or you could ask if people are okay with playing against them, because maybe some other players don't whine as much about needing to bring grav

I'm just used to pre-built lists with no discussion. You'd have to omit them before-hand to be safe from these concerns. This is how I end up with grav in my list vs demons. And why I just can't stack with grav.

pm713 wrote:And Space Marine armour is constructed.

The armor is. The marine isn't. Thus the toughness value and the armor save.

Do any of the wraith constructs have a non-mechanical component? If you appeal to their souls, you must understand if I wave such an answer off.

Yes. Both are needed. But I'm not surprised you don't know what you're talking about.

You just asserted that what I said is true, and then go on to say that I don't know what I'm talking about?

Irony noted.

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

1. They're both wraithbone constructs, as are wraithguard. Even if you have a self-driving car, it's still a car.

2. Is the first bit really true? Are wraithknights actually piloted? I was under the impression that the "pilot" basically just hangs out and "talks" to the soul of the eldar inside of the construct. "Hey, bro, we need to take a left. Go that way!" "Affirmative."

And Space Marine armour is constructed. So what? Which is what a Wraithknight is. A Wraithlord is like an artificial limb.

Yes. Both are needed. But I'm not surprised you don't know what you're talking about.

What are you talking about? Traditio knows all about the Emprah's finest. Which is all that they need to know about 40k, since spehss mureens are the only army that matters.

Everything else ought to gak their pants when a bolter gets pointed at them. If it doesn't, then they're unbalanced. Also, gardening tools make the best close combat weapons, and pauldrons are always in style.

 Jewelfox wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
[You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Jewelfox keeps suggesting things like short-range grav weapons and assaults.

I don't think that this person fully grasps the idea of what "jump" means in the stat line.

I don't think you read this thread's title

So there's actually something relevant to the title I'll add what I think about the thread title.

Be nice about things. Have a good attitude through the game and try to get feedback about whether your army feels unfair to play against. The main thing is attitude though. If you have a bad attitude then no matter what the army is the game will suck.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm just used to pre-built lists with no discussion

I think I see your problem.

Please quit trying to use GW's terrible fluff to justify in game stats. The game stats are what they are independent of the fluff. I don't care what's an MC and what's a vehicle except for the mechanical repercussions.

Jewelfox wrote:What are you talking about? Traditio knows all about the Emprah's finest. Which is all that they need to know about 40k, since spehss mureens are the only army that matters.

Everything else ought to gak their pants when a bolter gets pointed at them. If it doesn't, then they're unbalanced. Also, gardening tools make the best close combat weapons, and pauldrons are always in style.

Yes.

Space marines should be numerically few. But what space marines are on the table should make everyone gak their pants.

 Jewelfox wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm just used to pre-built lists with no discussion

I think I see your problem.

All players names go in a kitty with their list. Opponents are randomly assigned. People can not change their list after submission for a reason. (No tailoring) Why do you think this should be a problem?

Martel732 wrote:
Please quit trying to use GW's terrible fluff to justify in game stats.

Perhaps Traditio should be told that.

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Why should a Wraithlord be a vehicle.....

Is there any major mechanical difference between a Wraithlord and a Wraithknight?

Well a Wraithknight is a piloted mech and a Wraithlord is basically the body of the soul inside. Wraithlords being vehicles is like saying Space Marines should be vehicles.

By that logic a Defiler should also be an MC and not a vehicle.

pm713 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Please quit trying to use GW's terrible fluff to justify in game stats.

Perhaps Traditio should be told that.

I'm saying that in general. A guy in a suit can be represented more than one way, as long as they are properly priced in the game.

Vaktathi wrote:By that logic a Defiler should also be an MC and not a vehicle.

And dreadnoughts. And penitent engines.

If you object to either, I'll appeal analogically to dreadknights.

pm713 wrote:

 Jewelfox wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
[You can't live to get to melee though vs Tau. Everything is dead. Plus, the Riptide is hard to catch.

Jewelfox keeps suggesting things like short-range grav weapons and assaults.

I don't think that this person fully grasps the idea of what "jump" means in the stat line.

I don't think you read this thread's title

So there's actually something relevant to the title I'll add what I think about the thread title.

Be nice about things. Have a good attitude through the game and try to get feedback about whether your army feels unfair to play against. The main thing is attitude though. If you have a bad attitude then no matter what the army is the game will suck.

This is actually something I've needed to learn. I come from a milieu where anime mecha are cool and okay, but skullbloods for the bloodskull god are simply hilarious. > 50% of the people I've played against use and like them though, and I've learned to tone down my rhetoric against them. (And against Nurgle daemons after my roommate got into them; I actually ended up building most of her list.)

The only reason I'm making fun of Astartes in this thread is because Traditio's an Astartes supremacist, who believes they're more legitimate than other factions and thinks Tau shouldn't exist. I am trying to help them realize the extent to which they live in a glass house.

Actual space marines were too powerful in 3rd ed. There is little debate to this. Sweeping advance was a thing, as was Rhino rush.

Four editions later, meqs are back where they were in 2nd. Marines don't make marine lists good, things like grav cents do. I'm not an Astartes supremacist, but I object to them being busted back down to cannon fodder that don't last any longer than guardsmen.

Traditio wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:What are you talking about? Traditio knows all about the Emprah's finest. Which is all that they need to know about 40k, since spehss mureens are the only army that matters.

Everything else ought to gak their pants when a bolter gets pointed at them. If it doesn't, then they're unbalanced. Also, gardening tools make the best close combat weapons, and pauldrons are always in style.

Yes.

Space marines should be numerically few. But what space marines are on the table should make everyone gak their pants.

Don't read any of the Warzone Damocles books. You won't like them.

I'm not sure you could get past Kauyon's cover.

Jewelfox wrote:Don't read any of the Warzone Damocles books. You won't like them.

I'm not sure you could get past Kauyon's cover.

That tau obviously sucker-punched that marine when he wasn't looking. The marine, fluffwise, is clearly about to get up and chop the tau in half with his chainsword.

What heresy are you proposing?

Martel732 wrote:
Actual space marines were too powerful in 3rd ed. There is little debate to this. Sweeping advance was a thing, as was Rhino rush.

Four editions later, meqs are back where they were in 2nd. Marines don't make marine lists good, things like grav cents do. I'm not an Astartes supremacist, but I object to them being busted back down to cannon fodder that don't last any longer than guardsmen.

I wasn't calling you one. And I actually agree that Astartes should be more powerful. Unfortunately, this conflicts with Games Workshop's burning desire to sell boatloads of identical plastic mans.

If I ever got into spehss mureens, I'd play Grey Knights. You need a lot fewer of them to make a list, they could work as actual knights in TRPGs, and they're good at all the things that my Tau are bad at (and vice-versa).

I'm not certain why they took away the idea of Kroot being assault thugs. That made Tau less helpless against opponents in melee range and reduced the need to massacre every last enemy before they could assault.

Traditio wrote:

Jewelfox wrote:Don't read any of the Warzone Damocles books. You won't like them.

I'm not sure you could get past Kauyon's cover.

That tau obviously sucker-punched that marine when he wasn't looking. The marine, fluffwise, is clearly about to get up and chop the tau in half with his chainsword.

What heresy are you proposing?

I am proposing that you develop a shred of self-awareness, when you go around trying to dictate to other players what things should be like based on the fluff.

Which is kind of a crappy thing to do to begin with. FFS, I haven't done anything to you. Quit threadcrapping on me when I'm trying to help non-Tau players, for the Greater Good of the miniatures hobby.

Martel732 wrote:Just don't use Riptides and Stormsurges. Done. That's all you need to do. Even missilesides are quite reasonable compared to those units.

Is it though? I think if you removed riptides and Stormsurges people would just complain at the MSU crisis spam and broadside spam... people just like to complain

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:And Space Marine armour is constructed.

Do any of the wraith constructs have a non-mechanical component? If you appeal to their souls, you must understand if I wave such an answer off.

So I am pretty sure that all the wraith constructs are not piloted. And fluff wise they actually require a spiritseer to be nearby in order to essentially bridge the gap between the soulstones and the constructs.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not certain why they took away the idea of Kroot being assault thugs. That made Tau less helpless against opponents in melee range and reduced the need to massacre every last enemy before they could assault.

Maybe because we're powerful enough as it is, without being half-decent in assault.

I liked the idea of melee Kroot, though.

Really? Broadsides are less durable than terminators against things like lascannons and crisis suits are vulnerable to the lowly krak missile. Without Riptides and Surges, BA would much more dangerous vs Tau. Because the weapons we do have would be more relevant.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Martel732 wrote:Just don't use Riptides and Stormsurges. Done. That's all you need to do. Even missilesides are quite reasonable compared to those units.

Is it though? I think if you removed riptides and Stormsurges people would just complain at the MSU crisis spam and broadside spam... people just like to complain

What are you talking about, Grizzyzz?! It's not like we're dealing with some kind of real-world prejudice here, like against anime fans and the audacity they have to think they could beat THE EMPRAH's CHOSEN. Why, they don't even have any skulls on their models, plus they let icky GIRLS in their army. They should feth off and go play Infinity, we're busy having VERY SERIOUS gardening implement duels with our war dollies here!