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Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Actually, wraiths will carry not because of the defensive profile, but because of whip coils dropping the wulfen initiative and then the wraiths going to town on them.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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Whip Coils give the wraiths that have them +3 initiative, They no longer drop the initiative of enemies in base contact.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 07:39:52


 
   
Made in il
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Right.
Still, same results, you hit first.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
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I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.
   
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Virginia

Akiasura wrote:
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.


Wulfen are S5 base?

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the_scotsman wrote:
@Xenomancers: Can you elaborate as to how a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wulfen charge than an imperial knight does?

How many scarabs? Because, by my little back of the envelope math, I don't think it's possible for something to be easier for TWC to kill than scarabs (assuming they have the mandatory power fists, and if they don't...well, they've got zero chance of killing the IK, and they will still kill several scarabs...)

Hit on 2's, wound on 2's, instant death, ignore the armor save....

they might get a 5++ res protocol if taken in a canoptek harvest decurion?

What kind of save does an imperial knight get against wolfen attacks?

This is my point. RP is basically an invo save on every necron model (I chose scarbs because they are the weakest unit in the codex)- except its better because you can stack it with other saves. They get this for cost 0 and decurion makes it even better at cost 0. I can't even bring a casual list against a necron because I wont kill a single model. I'm forced to spam D just to be able to kill things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wolfen beat wraiths - but they also cost more. Spacewolves are the one bad matchup for crons. Basically the only army they can't just roll over with wraiths. Interestingly Spacewolves are about the only bad matchup for tau too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 11:49:27


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Missouri

Akiasura wrote:
Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.


Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.

I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
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Grimgold wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
IMO tau and necrons are the most broken armies in the game. Eldar just has a few overtuned units that can be spammed and space marines have a single formation that abuses maelstrom format. Necron and tau quite literally have both - overtuned units with overpowered formations - it takes them to a whole new level of gak. Space marines are actually a very crappy army and virtually non competitive without formations and allies. Eldar are a fantastic army but still have bad matchups and require skill to play. Tau just stand still and blast everything away ignoring half the phases and rules in the game - if they go first they almost automatically win. Necrons ehhh...what can I say - a scarab unit has a better chance of living through a wolfen charge than an imperial knight does...it's disgusting.


You are under selling the Eldar, They don't have a few over tuned units, they have the three most overtuned units in the game, which are so abused you rarely get to see their other overtuned units. BTW scarabs are toughness 3, With ID they have next to zero chance of surviving a wolfen charge. Not to take any credibility from your complaints, but I believe you are mistaken on the units you are complaining about, you probably mean a unit of wraiths, not scarabs. The answer is maybe, a 3++ and two wounds will only carry you so far against 40 str 8 attacks, but with hot dice and a formation, and a tomb spider, one or two of them might survive out of a max sized unit of 6. But without power weapons, and only three attacks each, they are unlikely to be able to get more than 1 or 2 in return before the lower cost wulfen finish them off.


I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.

On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Sidstyler wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.


Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.

I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.


Eh I disagree. I think GW with the new formations gave you a ton of options to get Tau off the back-lines and up in peoples faces, not to mention the Farsight supplement allowing for Crisis suit as troops where you start playing the i am trying to stay in 12-18" range of you but still try to not leave myself in the open. I am not saying you can't still be a gunline, you absolutely can.. but I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play them effectively.

-----------------

OH wait i forgot JSJ Crisis suits is somehow more rage inducing then Flicker jump warp spiders haha This is not a remark to your quote.. I just think it is funny that people know Warp spiders are extremely good.. spam to win units, and yet you rarely hear any complaints about them.


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 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Sidstyler wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.


Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.

I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.


Eh I disagree. I think GW with the new formations gave you a ton of options to get Tau off the back-lines and up in peoples faces, not to mention the Farsight supplement allowing for Crisis suit as troops where you start playing the i am trying to stay in 12-18" range of you but still try to not leave myself in the open. I am not saying you can't still be a gunline, you absolutely can.. but I don't think it is fair to say that is the only way to play them effectively.

-----------------

OH wait i forgot JSJ Crisis suits is somehow more rage inducing then Flicker jump warp spiders haha This is not a remark to your quote.. I just think it is funny that people know Warp spiders are extremely good.. spam to win units, and yet you rarely hear any complaints about them.


because despite being overturned to the max - spiders can be killed. People don't complain about crisis suits for the same reason...riptides/decurion/wolf stars/wraiths. You know - stuff that doesn't die when you shoot them.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Sidstyler wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Personally, I think GW went completely the wrong way with Tau and it shows in how the player base reacts to the army. The alien federation angle would have played much better, as well as opening up a lot of politics and interesting fluff, but maybe that's wishful thinking.


Yeah, I really don't like how Tau ended up, either. You also hit it on the head with MC spam, that really shouldn't have been a Tau thing. Sad thing is it'll probably never be fixed, either, since with the newest codex GW just double-downed on all the crap everyone hated about the last one.

I don't like that "sit back and shoot" style of play that the codex pigeonholes you into. You can try to play differently, but the way the codex is designed you really have to go out of your way and hamstring yourself to do it, because it's so painfully obvious what you should be taking and how you should be using it.


I think that MC spam was the right direction to go. Tau used to be much like the IG with infantry, tanks, and special units to boost shooting. 40k didn't need another infantry line, and I think they tried to push tau away from infantry spam and tanks as it conflicted with IG's identity. Tau are now a mech suit army with infantry support (Instead of an infantry army with tank/transport support) , hell, they even introduced breacher teams in an effort to make Tau more aggressive. They can't make Tau too agile or they'll start becoming like the Eldar, and they can't make Tau too stationary or they'll have another IG. The new codex rewards aggressive play by making markerlights on drones more viable, creating two new aggressive units and by making multiple aggressive formations that reward movement.
   
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Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Completely anecdotal point coming up, so feel free to disregard.

Spoiler:
Played a 2k points game today, Tau vs Legion Space Marines. Tau player brings 2 full units of Strike Teams in Devilfish, Cadre Fireblade, Pathfinders, Stealth team, IA Riptide, Railgun Broadside and Hammerhead, Fusion Piranha, and Crisis commander and bodyguards, with plasma rifles and fusion blasters.

I'm bringing 2x10 man Tactical squads, a unit of Terminators, a Master of Signals, a Moritat, a full unit of JP Destroyers, a missile heavy support squad and 20 Breachers plus Apothecary and Legatine Axe Praetor. Not a vehicle in sight.

There's about 6 buildings on the table, with four in the midground, creating some good fire lanes and LOS blockers. Big Guns Never Tire mission, and the three objectives are deployed straight across the middle.

The Tau player bunches all his guys in transports and on the left flank. His Pathfinders and Broadside take a building in his backfield, marking up, and his Stealth suits infiltrate into a central building with Obj 1. Crisis suits held in reserve. My force is spread out, with Breachers in the centre, one Tactical squad on the left flank, and the Destroyers and other squad on the right. My missile dudes camp in a backward ruin.

Game lasts five turns. My Destroyers are wiped from the table in one turn by the Riptide and Crisis Teams, my Terminators destroyed the turn they come from Deep Strike. My left flank tacticals are just about killed first turn by disembarking Fire Warriors from their Devilfish. In return, my Breachers charge the Stealth Suits in their ruin, wipe them and a Fire Warrior squad sent in to deal with the marines once they leave combat. They carry on to lock the Riptide in combat on turn 3. The Crisis suits are killed by bolters from the right flank tacticals, and the missile team insta-gib the Broadside turn one.

Final result on the table - Breachers at 18 man strength, locked in combat with a losing Riptide, but surrounded by Tau Devilfish, Piranha, Fire Warriors with Fireblade and Pathfinders. Right flank tacticals at 8 men vs 1HP Hammerhead and full wounded Crisis Commander with full kit.

Score: 5/3 to the Legion.

And it was one of the most enjoyable games I've had. Tau shooting was reduced by my opponent's close range style, and the placement of LOS blockers, and strategy played a huge part in the game, from model positioning and pre-planning movement and fire actions. Honestly, if this was my only experience with Tau, I wouldn't have a clue with what you were on about, and my list was fairly suboptimal anyway.

My main point, if you've gotten this far: how was my opponent unfun? They used Markerlights, Riptides, Fire Warriors with their oh-so-terrible S5 guns, drop Crisis suits, etc. The only bad thing about their loadouts was probably the railguns on the Hammerhead and Broadside.

TL;DR
Tau as an army are not always OP.


They/them

 
   
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!


Its not like they are free, we do pay for them. I think its an interesting mechanic that try and help make Tau their own unique army. If you take markerlights away then the entire book needs to be rewritten because the units would need adjusting. Again i will use Skit and admech as great examples. They get to up their ballistic skill at will. +3/2/1 BS or reroll 1s or +3/2/1 WS.. whatever they want, give everything shrouded this turn, regardless of how many units you remove they can still do most of these things. Where what you have going for you playing against Tau, as you remove markerlights, the overall army starts to slow in its offensive capability.

Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.

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 krodarklorr wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.


Wulfen are S5 base?


We were discussing TWC, which are. And throw out a ton of attacks.
   
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 krodarklorr wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.


Wulfen are S5 base?


Yes
   
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Virginia

 Crimson Devil wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.


Wulfen are S5 base?


Yes


Hmm, yes.

Ridiculous.

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 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!


Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.


Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 Crimson Devil wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
I'd actually have to run the numbers, but I think the wolves being able to ID them with some of the attacks makes the difference. The wraiths have to chew through everything, but the wolves are likely to ID 2-3 wraiths per turn if they have 2 THs. That's a big wound advantage.


Wulfen are S5 base?


Yes


Hmm, yes.

Ridiculous.


I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 15:24:06


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Virginia

 EnTyme wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".


They're cursed with being too good.

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 EnTyme wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!


Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.


Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?


I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 15:34:25


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Virginia

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...


Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!

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 krodarklorr wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...


Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!


regardless the end result would still be people being mad that Tau get to do it.. =/

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 krodarklorr wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".


They're cursed with being too good.

Much easier to shoot down than thunderwolves and not much better than thunderwolves in CC. Take advantage of that. Not that it can really be taken advantage of - shooting down wolfen just means that the thunderwolves get to you unharmed and murder your whole army. Then again - this is the exact way Necrons roll over people it's just 2 squads of wraiths instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 krodarklorr wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...


Whoa sir, that would actually make for some tactical decisions! We can't have that for Tau, let alone 40k! Are you mad?!


regardless the end result would still be people being mad that Tau get to do it.. =/

I think tau being able to over-watch with their whole army and endless access to interceptor is the chief complaint about tau. It covers all their weaknesses and means they have no really bad matchups.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 16:02:16


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 Grizzyzz wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!


Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.


Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?


I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...


A Drone Net formation with all Markerlight units has a pretty decent chance of landing at least a handful of lights on the charging unit, essentially meaning that the remaining units in support fire get a second shooting phase against a single enemy unit. I hate using examples based on luck, but if the Tau player is smart enough to overwatch his Markerlights one unit at a time, a single successful snap fire can quickly snowball into multiple lights on the target.

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 krodarklorr wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how Wulfen is a "curse".


They're cursed with being too good.


Imagine them having to roll d6 for each unit to activate the curse in the beginning of the game? No wait, that was Blood Angels.
   
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Ute nation

 Xenomancers wrote:


I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.

On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?


I don't doubt it happened, but like the skinny people celebrating weight loss on Jenny Craig commercials, it should come with a caveat "these results are not typical". Against weapons that could drop an imperial knight, 6 scarabs should have lasted about 8 hits relying solely on the repair protocols to survive. If they weren't armed with powerfist, then you have swarm bases doing exactly what they are supposed to, tarpiting stronger units. Just about any swarm base would have had similar results. Also imperial knights have a glass jaw, especially so in melee without void shields, so tougher than an imperial knight really isn't that serious of an accusation. Tougher than a wraith knight would be a much more convincing argument.

Warp spiders tear it up vs. a necron army, because they wound on twos against everything. Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+, so it takes six shots to get a marine. Shoots at a warrior, wounds on a 2+, saves on a 4+, and repair protocols on a 4+, how many shots does it take... just under 5 to get the warrior. They are literally more useful against Necrons than they are against Marines. This is great example of the cognitive bias that people suffer from when thinking about Necrons ability to tank shots. Somehow a 50/50 repair protocol equates to immortality in the mind of critics. Here is the thing, you don't remember the time your opponent failed 6 of his 8 repair protocols, but you can't forget the time he succeeded 6 out of 8.

If you look at math instead of anecdote, you will get a much more accurate picture of the necrons. They Are tough, but that is their thing, they have some good units, but compared to the monsters that tau, Grey knights, space wolves, and eldar bring to the table each fight, they don't even have a unit in the top 10 overtuned units in the game. I get it though, the way necrons play aggravate people, being tough makes opponents feel like they are less effective against necrons, and a few hot streaks make people feel like shooting at necrons is useless. However when discussing balance you need to take a step outside your own head, and look at the numbers, not your impression of them.

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 EnTyme wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 EnTyme wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Yes - just what tau needed! More markerlgihts!


Do markerlights need some fine tuning? I think they are nearly where they need to be. Cover I will stand by my statement needs something balanced across the board. 2 markerlights to remove cover.. yeah.. maybe that is too good... 1 marker per cover.. i think that is on the opposite extreme. There is a happy middle ground somewhere.


Maybe add a rule stating that markerlights can't Overwatch and can't reduce cover below 6+?


I think marker lights in combined over watch is not that big of an issue. I have very rarely landed a markerlight in overwatch.. but I don't play a gun line so maybe if I had 2-3 units of markers hopping in to support I would..

I have made that suggestion in the past myself. or .. MAYBE.... 1 marker removes 1 cover... but 3 markers removes all cover ?? 3 makerlights is high enough that now you are making choices between simply removing cover or dropping it some and increasing ballistic skill...


A Drone Net formation with all Markerlight units has a pretty decent chance of landing at least a handful of lights on the charging unit, essentially meaning that the remaining units in support fire get a second shooting phase against a single enemy unit. I hate using examples based on luck, but if the Tau player is smart enough to overwatch his Markerlights one unit at a time, a single successful snap fire can quickly snowball into multiple lights on the target.


I get it, I realize how it could snowball.. but all those 4 units of marker lights need to be within 6" of the unit being assaulted, which isn't going to be the case most of the time.

I am not saying you are doing this.. but most people argue against Tau with "stars aligned" situations. Yeah if I have 16 markerlights I am probably going to hit 2-3 lights.. so now that 4 units have shot.. am i buffing the single unit that was being assaulted.. maybe +1 on more units nearby? but then how many units do i have clumped into this 6" radii oval on the board ? And this really is only a problem with a gunline Tau army which WAS the norm.. but has become less so for a lot of Tau players ( like myself )

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Grimgold wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:


I was in a game the other day with a spacewolf player and a necron player. Wraiths and destro lord were losing badly to thunderwolves + lord and libby. Nercron player threw in a unit of 6 scarab to slow down the assault. What actually happend was the scarabs tanked a massive amount of str 10 with their 5+ RP and the unit never got out of combat all game. Those attacks would have easily wrecked an imperial knight...That's where my scarabs tank better than imperial knights came from.

On the Issue of overtunned Eldar units. 1 is a lord of war that can't be spammed (to a degree it can) - and Warp Spiders and Scatter Bikes. Yep - str 6 spam and no one probably does it better but - these units are still very killable. Realistically scat bikes are fairly priced they just have too much access to heavy weapons - wraith knights just cost 75 points to little. Warpspiders - yeah - should be banned how broken they are but take them vs decurion and watch them kill nothing...What does that tell you about decurion?


I don't doubt it happened, but like the skinny people celebrating weight loss on Jenny Craig commercials, it should come with a caveat "these results are not typical". Against weapons that could drop an imperial knight, 6 scarabs should have lasted about 8 hits relying solely on the repair protocols to survive. If they weren't armed with powerfist, then you have swarm bases doing exactly what they are supposed to, tarpiting stronger units. Just about any swarm base would have had similar results. Also imperial knights have a glass jaw, especially so in melee without void shields, so tougher than an imperial knight really isn't that serious of an accusation. Tougher than a wraith knight would be a much more convincing argument.

Warp spiders tear it up vs. a necron army, because they wound on twos against everything. Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+, so it takes six shots to get a marine. Shoots at a warrior, wounds on a 2+, saves on a 4+, and repair protocols on a 4+, how many shots does it take... just under 5 to get the warrior. They are literally more useful against Necrons than they are against Marines. This is great example of the cognitive bias that people suffer from when thinking about Necrons ability to tank shots. Somehow a 50/50 repair protocol equates to immortality in the mind of critics. Here is the thing, you don't remember the time your opponent failed 6 of his 8 repair protocols, but you can't forget the time he succeeded 6 out of 8.

If you look at math instead of anecdote, you will get a much more accurate picture of the necrons. They Are tough, but that is their thing, they have some good units, but compared to the monsters that tau, Grey knights, space wolves, and eldar bring to the table each fight, they don't even have a unit in the top 10 overtuned units in the game. I get it though, the way necrons play aggravate people, being tough makes opponents feel like they are less effective against necrons, and a few hot streaks make people feel like shooting at necrons is useless. However when discussing balance you need to take a step outside your own head, and look at the numbers, not your impression of them.


Been trying to say this for months now. +1 to you, sir.

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Grimgold wrote:
Here is the math warp spider shoots a tac marine, wounds on a 4+ marine saves on a 3+,


S6 monofiliament (which is their base gun) will wound tac marines on 2s as well. the only units getting 4+ wounds on monofil are I6 and that will usually not be the majority initiative of a unit (unless your harlequins or a similar super elite dedicated CC unit)

** EDIT ** not trying to sway your point, just rather nip this in the butt before someone uses it against your point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/29 16:20:47


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