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 carldooley wrote:

 Torus wrote:
Again, this isn't asking advice for how to kill Tau either but how to make them more FUN TO PLAY WITH AND AGAINST. There's a reason why this is in general topics rather than tactics

Sorry, but the general feel to this thread is that the only real way to have fun against tau is if the tau player shoots themselves in the foot, then hands the loaded gun to their opponent. I used to bring preprinted lists to such games, but with the amount of bullgak here (it is as though people don't WANT to talk things out with their opponents before games then throw a fit when their opponent brings something that they don't want to face), it seems as though we should be handing a ball peen hammer to our opponents as well.

The only real suggestion that I have for the OP, and people like yourself is to break the meta. Play FSE, find the tau equivilent to Lictor Shame, and play the hell out of it.

I know the feeling, If the Avatar didn't give it away I'm an Eldar player... This apparently equates me to the devil when it comes to the tabletop...

I know I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but I vehemently believe that a powerful list does not mean its inherently boring to play and with Tau, there must be away of having a good to powerful list that is also fun to play with and against

The problem is on a fundamental level with Tau. They can't assault, they don't have psykers, they go all in on shooting.

That would leave movement as the one area to make Tau fun in, but the range of their weapons mean the most effective use is to fire and backup.

If I catch the units of a Tau Opponent they invariably concede. I don't get to do anything except play a hour long game of tag.

Torus wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.

I brought it up off the cuff as its a nice counter to the recent use of Warp Spider spam, and it absolutely murders harlequins or DE or anything else thats fragile that relys on LOS/cover, in any case thats not what makes them OP.

In fact whether it's OP or not has nothing to do with the thread, its how to make them fun to play with/against and I'd argue that isn't dependent on how 'OP' a faction is and works under the assumption that a reasonable player of the top 4 codexes tones their list down against the weaker ones...

Toning down on interceptor and markerlights whilst promoting movement is a step in the right direction, in my humble opinion.

On topic about SMS Play with ITC rules where if they are intercepting, then the model needs line of sight in order to do so. That would mitigate some of the SMS annoyance.

As for everything else.. play FSE, it is your best shot. Play with whatever terrain your group is used to playing with, don't change that aspect. Crisis suits are most effective within 12-18" firing range.. and while they can JSJ backwards, it takes practice to both stay in effective range offensively, and keep out of your opponents effective range defensively. Point being, your crisis suits are not going to be unmanageable for your opponents. Depending on their army, I would argue to use some of the contingents because it is forcing you to not spam units and removes your objective secured. Going against any marine army, that is giving them an advantage right of the start.

In many historical scenarios, the attackers have a 2:1 advantage or more. The tau are always taking on the role of defender, and going up against this without superior numbers is destined to favor the tau.

It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.

There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?

Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.

 _ghost_ wrote:
It would also help to increase the number of LOS blocking terrain.

There are some people here literal whining about the range of Tau weapons... Why dont bring some more terrain. So that it actualy matters where a unit is on the table?

That same applies to Tau whining about the lack of durability on their Markerlight toting units(Pathfinders and Marker Drones).

The only difference is that in order for players to root out those Markerlight units, they need to specifically gear themselves up for it. The common thing Tau players throw at others who complain that it isn't exactly easy to root out Pathfinders in cover is "drop pod flamers".

Yeah, that's brilliant. Too bad you can drop on the other side of a building and still get SMS'd.

 Quickjager wrote:
The problem is on a fundamental level with Tau. They can't assault, they don't have psykers, they go all in on shooting.

That would leave movement as the one area to make Tau fun in, but the range of their weapons mean the most effective use is to fire and backup.

If I catch the units of a Tau Opponent they invariably concede. I don't get to do anything except play a hour long game of tag.

If I get caught I fight it out unless we both agree to concede, but I don't concede. Anything can happen with those dice.

Martel732 wrote:
Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.

okay so. . .
lascannon str9 ap2 1 shot. splat any crisis suit or broadside.
missile launcher, str8 ap3. one shots crisis suits
autocannon str7 ap4 like our missile pods, wounding most things we have on a 2, everything else on a 3. not a dismiss-able weapon.
mortar str5 ap5 barrage. more useful than you might think on LOS blocking terrain tables.
battlecannons. like krak missiles, are going to one shot crisis suits and smaller.

yes, imp weapons suck. \sarcasm

play a mirror match, watch as the tau player shows you how to win.
For instance, I played against a KDK player. I read up on his force after we played, and I was aghast that he didn't field a Chaos lord on bike with Kor'lath. A hq that can get across the field and die in my face. and, if I should make the mistake of killing the model (155 pts), I get a deepstriking Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury (a 250 pt model) FMC extremely close to my lines. That I cannot take EWO shots at as it doesn't start in reserves.

tldr, if you want to know how to dismantle your opponent's army, ASK them!

I go up against those weapons constantly AND use them constantly and I can tell you that they are terrible. And their platforms are pretty bad as well.Especially compared to Xeno guns. Think about having to use those weapons against Riptides and Stormsurges or MCs in general.

Most Tau players I play with admit that there's nothing BA can do to even survive the fight, much less win.

 carldooley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Tau are going to benefit from the range or their JSJ, so terrain can't save you. I don't think the range is that huge of a deal, as the Imperium has a lot of 48" guns, but they still mostly suck. It's the stat profiles and the marker light bonuses that make Tau tick.

okay so. . .
lascannon str9 ap2 1 shot. splat any crisis suit or broadside.

How often do you run Heavy Rail-Rifles on your Broadsides?

missile launcher, str8 ap3. one shots crisis suits

When fired as Krak instead of Frag, sure.

autocannon str7 ap4 like our missile pods, wounding most things we have on a 2, everything else on a 3. not a dismiss-able weapon.

S7 AP4, only available on Sentinels, Dreadnoughts, Hydra Flak Tanks(where it's a Skyfire weapon meaning snap firing against ground targets), Taurox APCs, Predator tanks as a main weapon, in a twin-linked version on the Leman Russ Exterminator, a coaxial mount on a Baneblade or Guard weapon teams.

mortar str5 ap5 barrage. more useful than you might think on LOS blocking terrain tables.

Also less helpful than you might think since the only platform toting Mortars are Guard weapon teams. You're looking at 5 points for a Mortar in a Infantry/Veteran/Command/Heavy Weapons Squad. They're Barrage so any indirect fire(read: those LOS blocking terrain tables) don't get to subtract their BS from Scatter.

battlecannons. like krak missiles, are going to one shot crisis suits and smaller.

Battle Cannons are also blast weapons, meaning you roll Scatter when firing.

Quite frankly I'm surprised you didn't throw out the Vanquisher Battle Cannon as an example. It's S8 AP2 with a 72" range and Armorbane!. OMG so OP!

yes, imp weapons suck. \sarcasm

You didn't actually make the point you think you made.

Kanluwen, imperial weapons are good! atleast not as bad as you want them to be.

please read better what he said: the poster never talked about hrr, he said lasconnons are very painful for broadside.

The part about frag doesn't make sense.
Why are you talking about frag, it is saying pulse rifles are bad because they can't kill a land raider, you shoot krak to kill hard targets and frags to kill more targets...

You are trying to tell us that autocannon platforms are not good, hard to get or what?

For sm you have whirlwinds how can be quiet useful against certain types of army. Which a mortar is in my opinion its the bane of hordes, useless against marines/termies.

Did you know ia pie plate has gets hots and scatters as well? Still is a good weapon, so what is your point with saying it can scatter?

Guys don't get me wrong tau are top tier and can be frustrating to play against.
However if tau play mobile and a kind of object games its a lot of fun. A IG gun line is just as boring as a tau gun line. Only difference is tau packs a bigger punch.

I switch to gk because there are so many people who hate tau. They people were just calling me names when I was looking into tau models in the store and refused to play as soon as pronounced ta(couldn't finish my word are they already said no) .
Please think on how you act to people. Start a dialogue any player wants to enjoy and have fun is willing to talk to ensure everyone has fun.

Just sad this post always attract the wrong people:(

They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.

 Quickjager wrote:
They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.

This. I might not like the goat hoofs or fish faces but the basic infantry look really good ... kroot can die in a fire though

 Quickjager wrote:
They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.

i got some looks from people in my FLGS when I was looking at the models. I also had the store owner give me a strange look when I mentioned wanting to start Tau or Dark Eldar. Thankfully he steered me away from DE which he said had a bad dex (this was I believe their 6e dex) he said it had only one way to be viably played. I had done some research that confirmed it was kinda limited dex.

Like I said Eldar might be hated, but I think the Tau are the only despised faction that a large chunk of the player base at large just hates with all their guts.

 Kanluwen wrote:

How often do you run Heavy Rail-Rifles on your Broadsides?

As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

------------------------------------
@arthorn

That is so bad...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also.. you want to know how to wipe pathfinders and any hiding drones off the table.. thunder fire cannons. That formation is amazing as well by the way.

 Grizzyzz wrote:


As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.

Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.

The HRR is not actually bad.. the problem is the High Yield Missle Pod is 100x better and its at no extra cost. 1 s8 ap1 shot 60" or 4 Twin s7 ap4 shots 36".. it is like a no brainier which one you should choose. I was hoping in the new codex they were going to balance the HRR out more, or change the HYMP.. pretty much anything. but no.

That is probably the point he was trying to make. When I played my Sentinals of Terra I ran lascannon teams all the time, but chapter tactics gave them tank hunter, so they were a bit more consistent. Playing Ravenguard, I think Kanluwen's best option for some longer range artillery is the thunderfire cannon formation.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.

It is lol

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.

Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.

You're completely right, it also doesn't help that most heavy weapon platforms IOM have are rubbish and usually have very few ways to add force multipliers to them (such as twinlinking or ignores cover, there are certainly exceptions but they are few and far between) so you can understand some of the resentment when there a direct comparison with the 2 factions.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.

Don't mean to interject, I just find this thread fascinating.

Ding, ding, ding.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


As freaking awesome that model is.. the answer is no one. Not sure if you were making a point that HRR outranges your lascannons... or that similarly, lascannons are never fielded (which iis not completely true, I see them fielded all the time, atleast in my area)

I don't mean to speak for him, but I think his point is that the lascanon is similar to the HRR, yet Tau never take them because they're awful, while imperials take lascanons because there's no other option.

The HRR is not actually bad.. the problem is the High Yield Missle Pod is 100x better and its at no extra cost. 1 s8 ap1 shot 60" or 4 Twin s7 ap4 shots 36".. it is like a no brainier which one you should choose. I was hoping in the new codex they were going to balance the HRR out more, or change the HYMP.. pretty much anything. but no.

The problem is that the HRR, and Lascannon, and Railguns, and Leman Russ Vanquisher Cannons, and Transauranic Arqeubi, and all the other single shot low AP high Strength are less effective than anything with high ROF and middling Strength and AP when it comes to tank busting--and far superior when it comes to monster hunting.

That is probably the point he was trying to make. When I played my Sentinals of Terra I ran lascannon teams all the time, but chapter tactics gave them tank hunter, so they were a bit more consistent. Playing Ravenguard, I think Kanluwen's best option for some longer range artillery is the thunderfire cannon formation.

Thunderfire Cannons cannot be taken by the Raven Guard detachment.
I have access to the following if I play Raven Guard strictly via their Detachment


There is no 'formation' for Thunderfire Cannons. They're a Heavy Support choice and the bonus is for them being taken as a trio.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Or psychic powers?

Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?

lmao

"Is this thing working? *aims laser at eyes* GYAAH!"

 Xenomancers wrote:
Why is SMS even being discussed? It's a nice weapon - but it's not breaking the game. Supporting fire kind of is. Ignoring cover with long ranged ap2 pie plates on indestructible and mobile platforms is. Interceptor on ap2 pie plates is too.

Indeed.

 Torus wrote:
I know the feeling, If the Avatar didn't give it away I'm an Eldar player... This apparently equates me to the devil when it comes to the tabletop...

He does kinda look like one, though. The red isn't helping.

 Quickjager wrote:
They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.

Tau really do have one of the best-looking miniature ranges (a couple of stinkers though, like the sun shark), and the fire warrior kit in particular does look pretty damn good. I also find it amusing comparing it to the old one, the sprues for the old kit just look so barren, and the details on the new one are so much better, without going overboard like GW tends to do on Space Marine kits and their bling.

But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that threads like this breed. The kind of toxicity you see on forums like Dakka bleeds into real life, and you end up with people being legitimately harassed just because they like those cool models. And when people actually take the plunge and build up an army, supporting their local store, they're rewarded for their efforts by being denied games and being treated like they're human filth.

Between rules that are worse than garbage, and people like that, it's not hard to see why 40k is dying.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Transauranic Arqeubi

Gesundheit.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Or psychic powers?

Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?

lmao

"Is this thing working? *aims laser at eyes* GYAAH!"

Now more than ever I want this to be a thing.

I'm going to make a Markerlight Perils table.

 Quickjager wrote:
They were calling you names for looking at Tau models wtf? donkey-caves, Tau got some of the better looking infantry models with their update.

Tau really do have one of the best-looking miniature ranges (a couple of stinkers though, like the sun shark), and the fire warrior kit in particular does look pretty damn good. I also find it amusing comparing it to the old one, the sprues for the old kit just look so barren, and the details on the new one are so much better, without going overboard like GW tends to do on Space Marine kits and their bling.

But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that threads like this breed. The kind of toxicity you see on forums like Dakka bleeds into real life, and you end up with people being legitimately harassed just because they like those cool models. And when people actually take the plunge and build up an army, supporting their local store, they're rewarded for their efforts by being denied games and being treated like they're human filth.

Between rules that are worse than garbage, and people like that, it's not hard to see why 40k is dying.

To be fair as much vitriol as I have towards the Tau online, I'm never going to say no to a game with someone that I have built a rapport with. I played a 1v1v1 against Tau(brand new player) and Ravenwing last Saturday with my Skitarii as a learning game for the Tau player at 750 points and we all had an absolute blast. I lost by 1 KP, but had a lone Skitarii Ranger tie up two Crisis Suits, a unit of Gun Drones, a unit of Stealth Suits, and a Ghostkeel in CC for almost four turns...before he got squished by the Ghostkeel.

There are people I won't play against, but it has nothing to do with their armies. It has everything to do with their attitudes and behaviors.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Transauranic Arqeubi

Gesundheit.

I'm pretty sure that's the noise it makes when it fires...

 Kanluwen wrote:

There is no 'formation' for Thunderfire Cannons. They're a Heavy Support choice and the bonus is for them being taken as a trio.

Ah my mistake, I was thinking of the armored company.

So.. take an allied detachment? 1 HQ 1 Troop, and a unit of 3 TFCs.. seems not bad at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heck, make it a CAD so you can run Ravenguard chapter tactics.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

There is no 'formation' for Thunderfire Cannons. They're a Heavy Support choice and the bonus is for them being taken as a trio.

Ah my mistake, I was thinking of the armored company.

So.. take an allied detachment? 1 HQ 1 Troop, and a unit of 3 TFCs.. seems not bad at all.

I could...or I could also just start running a much meaner force in terms of my Raven Guard.

The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive).
Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.

Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first. Can't reroll a bad Warlord Trait though.

Additionally, you seem to be under the impression that the Raven Guard Chapter Tactics are amazing. They're okay, but they're like any other Stealth/Shrouded heavy army reliant upon Assault units. In order to benefit most, I'm going to want a large amount of Jump Pack equipped models(Winged Deliverance granting rerolls to HoW attacks and using the Jump Packs in both Movement and Assault phases) and I'm going to want to avoid transports for the first turn(Strike From the Shadows disallowing them the Shrouded benefit if they start embarked).

But hey, I get +1 to Night Fighting right? That all balances out!

 Kanluwen wrote:

The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive).
Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.

Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first.

Ravenguard was my first marine chapter before I moved to Imperial Fists. I love Ravenguard fluff, its awesome. Lightning claw assault veterans are awesome (in the fluff ). I really like the new formations and relics for the ravenguard i think it was a much needed boost to them. Maybe Shrike will even be a chapter master in 8th..

 Kanluwen wrote:
relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive"

Is it just your first turn? hmm i will have to reread the chapter tactics when i get home.. I could have sworn it was turn 1 or the first turn they arrive from reserve. BOO!

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't reroll a bad Warlord Trait though.

We shouldn't even have to roll... we should just be able to select a trait, its so dumb. 50% of the traits won't even help your army list... hard example.. Tau getting reroll 1s in assault. The warlord trait should be something we can choose and build an army around. Hopefully they change this in 8th.. i would like to see that changed anyway

The HRR does suck, just like all single shot, low ROF guns now suck thanks to hull points, the vehicle damage table, and cover. And MCs.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Or psychic powers?

Do you want a Markerlight Perils Table? Maybe if you miss, you have to take a Blind test?

lmao

"Is this thing working? *aims laser at eyes* GYAAH!"

The Markerlight Perils Table is now a thing.

Well if you want to play against them competitively, drop pods, and close combat, if running SEQ vanguard droppods or charge in with bikes and teleport homer with assault terminators would really mess up their day.


But if you want to have the most fun, i take the advice of one of the older plays at our store.

"Just make an awesome movie, does not matter if you win or loose, just do it with style and look like a bad ass."

Just make the game fun, if you got a gunline of tau, what would be more bad ass, taking cover in a building and trading blows?

Or saying screw it, charge in with the land raider, hope you get glancing blows, bash right into their gun lines and unload your terminators, with TH/SS and start crushing skulls

I say nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Why would anyone bother to try to fight Tau, Eldar, or Daemons if you can WMD them to death?

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The issue there is that my army relies on either Deep Striking with obscene precision(Shadowstrike Kill Team, Ravenhawk Assault Group, Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force) or Outflanking(Pinion Battle Demi-Company->Wayfinders special rule; Scouts escorting a unit onto the board) and relies on the Detachment bonus of "Know When to Strike"(you can choose to make a Reserve roll for any of the units in reserve at the start of your first turn, on a 4+ they arrive).
Because of the fact that my signature Demi-Company, the Pinion, necessitates Scouts and the army as a whole relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive" and not being mounted in vehicles(You can't claim the "Strike From the Shadows" bonus if any unit is mounted in a Transport vehicle when the game begins), it's very much a...specialist army.

Plus I can reroll literally damn near every pregame thing except for my flippin' Warlord Trait. Reroll the Mission Table result, the result when rolling for a Random Demployment Zone, and reroll when rolling to see who deploys first.

Ravenguard was my first marine chapter before I moved to Imperial Fists. I love Ravenguard fluff, its awesome. Lightning claw assault veterans are awesome (in the fluff ). I really like the new formations and relics for the ravenguard i think it was a much needed boost to them. Maybe Shrike will even be a chapter master in 8th..

Shrike needs to be given a couple of different 'forms' in that he should have a shooty variant and a CC variant. That'd go a long way towards making me not hate his stupid self.

Truthfully, I'm running a Raptors force but given that their rules are now a Space Marines Codex out of date it's easier to just run them as Raven Guard.

 Kanluwen wrote:
relies heavily upon its Shrouded until turn 2 begins(not "Shrouded on the turn you arrive"

Is it just your first turn? hmm i will have to reread the chapter tactics when i get home.. I could have sworn it was turn 1 or the first turn they arrive from reserve. BOO!

Strike From the Shadows applies until the start of your second turn.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Can't reroll a bad Warlord Trait though.

We shouldn't even have to roll... we should just be able to select a trait, its so dumb. 50% of the traits won't even help your army list... hard example.. Tau getting reroll 1s in assault. The warlord trait should be something we can choose and build an army around. Hopefully they change this in 8th.. i would like to see that changed anyway

Difference is that you actually do get to reroll your Warlord traits--I literally can reroll every pregame thing beyond my Warlord Trait!

I wouldn't mind it so much if the table weren't so heavily split between "Dedicated Close Combat Options"(Silent Stalker and Swift and Deadly), "Shooting dependent Warlord" (Concentrated Attack and Vanish into the Gloom), and "Generic Game Mechanic Options" (Master of Shadows and Exit Strategy).

I run a Chapter Master toting Ex Tenebris and the Armour of Shadows, made using the Captain from Shadow Force Solaq to represent Lias Issodon. If I roll anything beyond Concentrated Attack or Vanish into the Gloom, it basically becomes a wasted character.