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 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Raven Guard have no requirement to take Land Speeders--and even if they did they have no benefits, excepting the one Land Speeder in Shadow Force Solaq.
They have three formations unique to them requiring Land Speeders, but none of those formations are mandatory.

Fair enough, maybe try running a couple of those auxiliary options? Landspeeders are a neat platform. Flexible offensive options and being a fast skimmer is great!

Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?

Shadow Force(non-unique version or the Solaq version)
-Sternguard
-Captain or any named character
-Vanguard Veteran
-A unit of Land Speeders
That gets you Acute Senses, Move Through Cover, Scout, and non-vehicle units in this Formation rerolling dice when determining their Run moves and vehicle units in this Formation can move an additional 6" when moving flat-out.

Raptor Wing
-1 unit of Land Speeders
-2 Stormtalon Gunships
If the Stormtalons are in Reserve at the start of your 2nd turn, they arrive automatically. A Land Speeder from this Formation can nominate an enemy unit within 18" and in LOS for the Stormtalons to reroll failed To Wound and Armour Penetration rolls (allowing for rerolling glances to get penetrating hits) when firing at the priority target.

Skyhammer Orbital Strike Force
-3 Tactical Squads with Drop Pods at point costs
-1 to 3 units of Land Speeders
Pick a point on the battlefield to mark the center of the Formation's dropsite. Units from this formation reroll To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 against enemy units within 12" of that point and Drop Pods from this Formation that arrive within 12" of that point scatter D6" rather than 2D6".
Tactical Squads can run and then shoot on the same turn they disembark from their Drop Pods as well.

Very few of those really are super impressive, even before you factor in their points cost.

Typhoon speeders are actually much more useful than heavy bolter speeders against the field, imo. A typhoon speeder does have a single heavy bolter, but that's not the main point.

 Swampmist wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think battle brothers contributes at all to space marines being good. They have no synergy as effective as Taudar.

Unless your either thunder Dome or CavalryStar

Both of which really only get away with it because of the fact that rather than giving the other books "Chapter Tactics: X", they give them USRs.

Things like Wolves with a White Scars Conclave would be sorted out fairly quick in terms of some of their power with that simple change. Remember that Chapter Tactics don't mix--it's not a case of "Pick the one you like best", they're turned off if you mix them.

Wolves and BA don't have chapter tactics, though. That's the trick.

Yeah, that's what he's saying. If they changed to have it, or at the very least if SW and DA did, a lot of the problems with this would be fixed.

I agree, I'm just backing him up.

Oh, sorry, got confused there . Honestly, I wish they would just do away with the BBs sharing Transports and ICs all together. Possibly making Inquisitors a unit attachment for IG at that point, not sure. Would take away a ton of the issues with Imperium allies, though obviously more balancing of the strong solo codexes would need to be done afterwards.

 Swampmist wrote:
Oh, sorry, got confused there . Honestly, I wish they would just do away with the BBs sharing Transports and ICs all together. Possibly making Inquisitors a unit attachment for IG at that point, not sure. Would take away a ton of the issues with Imperium allies, though obviously more balancing of the strong solo codexes would need to be done afterwards.

The issue isn't BBs sharing transports and ICs, IMO.

Said this before, saying it again. The issue is this:
The ability to purchase empty transports as Fast Attack choices.

 Swampmist wrote:

Then don't play BA lol

So, what your saying is, that he should give up the army he has been playing for years, simply because he wants to be competitive? Again, the fact that he should even have to CONSIDER giving up to have a chance in a competitive environment is utter fething bullhockey.

If you follow his postings throughout multiple threads it falls back on BA aren't good so I can't fight army <insert codex>. And yeah I am not arguing that is not the case because they got shafted in this release cycle (scouts still being bs3 for example).

It absolutely sucks that he can't be competitive with his favorite army.. which is why i have suggested allies to help fill in the gaps.. to which that has been refused ...

Harsh reality is what you said.. if he wants to be competitive then yeah, as unfortunate as it may be.. he needs to leave BA at home or use them as a drop pod taxi service.

IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers

EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.

 Swampmist wrote:
IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers

Wolfstars and Dragio Centstars can be fixed to an extent with the addition of Chapter Tactics to their rules. Precision DSing Dflamers is Eldar crap, so no real fix beyond a dreadsock to the player in question.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?

Yes i am aware. The skyhammer orbital one is pretty solid. That gives a lot of utility and doesn't require your speeders to be up in someones face. The raptor wing is also pretty solid. Have a scout unit outflank a speeder with multimetas have the talons fly on from wherever, and wipe out some backfield armor. Seems good to me.

Scouts can only outflank stuff from the Pinion Demi-company, which the speeders are not.

 Swampmist wrote:
IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers

EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.

Absolutely agree with you. It should be fixed... and hopefully with this new GW public face stuff will start getting fixed.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Do you know what the Auxiliary options including Land Speeders are?

Yes i am aware. The skyhammer orbital one is pretty solid. That gives a lot of utility and doesn't require your speeders to be up in someones face.

In order to get the benefits for it, yeah it kinda does. You have to pick a specific location on the board and in order for the speeders to get the benefits--they HAVE to be within range of that.

The raptor wing is also pretty solid. Have a scout unit outflank a speeder with multimetas have the talons fly on from wherever, and wipe out some backfield armor. Seems good to me.

So, how are you outflanking a Speeder?

If you're thinking about the Pinion Scouts doing the outflanking, it doesn't work like that. They can only act as Wayfinders for units within the Pinion itself(3x Tactical Squads, a Captain/Chaplain/named character, command squad, Devastators, or an Assault Squad) and it's a 1:1 ratio(each unit outflanking needs a scout squad).

 Swampmist wrote:
Scouts can only outflank stuff from the Pinion Demi-company, which the speeders are not.

Awe booo!!! I thought that was the decurian bonus.

Welp good thing they are fast speeders! Formation is still decent even without that.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
IC sharing does cause problems though. Looking at you, Wolfstars, DraigoCentstars and Precision DSing Dflamers

EDIT: Grizz, sure that's reality. All the rest of us are saying is that that is NOT ok. Screw the reality, we should all be making an effort to FIX this.

Absolutely agree with you. It should be fixed... and hopefully with this new GW public face stuff will start getting fixed.

Personally, I;d rather just try to get a ton of people together to make a Homebrew that doesn't utterly suck. Thinking about making a Google Doc for coordination, actually. Possibly something else, dunno what people will end up having to talk and plan...

Actually a really nice formation that you could allie to your ravenguard is that 5 stormtalon formation that grants them outflank.

I forget the name though..

Somehow the last posts miss the topic of this thread. just saying.

Yeah, sorry, we did get a bit off topic. Though, fixing the game balance would CERTAINLY go a long way to making tau more fun to play against

 Swampmist wrote:
Yeah, sorry, we did get a bit off topic. Though, fixing the game balance would CERTAINLY go a long way to making tau more fun to play against

Putting it bluntly, until Assault is made viable again in general and until high S low AP weapons become the bane of both monsters AND vehicles again and until things like Melta or Armourbane or Haywire apply equally to MCs/GMCs/SHVs/vehicles then there isn't really a "fun" way to play against most Tau lists except cheesing out or the Tau player handicapping themselves.

Tau players can debate until they're blue in the face(no pun intended), but the simple fact is that they have access to a TON of stuff which makes them just boring to play against for most people in pick-up games.

So bringing a sensble amount of LOS blocking terrain. is wothless?

As a Tau player sticking more to a mobile list is worthless?

If i play more Krisis Suits, Avoid a FW Gunline and such stuff in addition to a well done terrain this is still a boring game?

Swinging the " We have to fix the whole game to have any chance" is a thought that works theoreticaly but it is a stupit one the moment someone looks for a actual practical way to achive something.

But Just like with the BA being basically unplayable, Tau are super strong rn and that won't change by just taking bad stuff unless you take literally NOTHING good. Tau wouldn't take much to balance, sure, but for fun value it is hard because their fun\fast stuff got nerfed, and Crisis Suits certainly are NOT underpowered. That, and they still do shooting the best out anyone (bar maybe eldar but feth eldar) and that makes a mach against many fun armies basically an auto-win for the tau, even when playing a toned-down list. So, to be perfectly frank, in my opinion the BEST (and possibly only) way to make Tau fun to play against for the weaker codexes is to rewrite the rules, or ATLEAST balance the craziest stuff the game has to offer.

So, this thread is now how to make playing as Blood Angels fun.

I think it was always that.

No, though again I'm sorry if I brought us a bit off topic with the BA talk. Really, it may be my lack of experience, but having a good game really does come down to what you want out of a game VS what your opponent does. Tuning down a list CAN work, but I honestly have no idea how to do it for the Tau bar changing rules to make them a less "You win big or lose big" army. Also, depends on mission type, really. Maybe design some missions that force you to be in close-quarters, and in doing so make the game more fun for the both of you (possibly?)

 Swampmist wrote:
No, though again I'm sorry if I brought us a bit off topic with the BA talk. Really, it may be my lack of experience, but having a good game really does come down to what you want out of a game VS what your opponent does. Tuning down a list CAN work, but I honestly have no idea how to do it for the Tau bar changing rules to make them a less "You win big or lose big" army. Also, depends on mission type, really. Maybe design some missions that force you to be in close-quarters, and in doing so make the game more fun for the both of you (possibly?)

Don't feel bad you are by far not the reason it got off topic.. it was most certainly a collection of people (myself included)

Play maelstrom, and play with FSE cards. Not only do they have the core assault cards, but they also add in more assault cards for Farsight!!!! I love playing this deck its amazing.

You also have it right. having a good game doesn't really matter about which "army vs army" it comes down to the people. If both are making the game fun it doesn't matter who wins or loses.

Just gonna leave this here.

 _ghost_ wrote:
So bringing a sensble amount of LOS blocking terrain. is wothless?

Yes, it is worthless when the army it's supposed to be countering doesn't give a crap.

Between weapons that ignore LOS(Seeker Missiles fired via the "Seeker" Markerlight upgrade and SMS) and much of the hardest hitting stuff being on absurdly mobile stuff to begin with(Suits with JSJ), LOS blocking terrain isn't the bane of Tau it used to be.

As a Tau player sticking more to a mobile list is worthless?

If i play more Krisis Suits, Avoid a FW Gunline and such stuff in addition to a well done terrain this is still a boring game?

Let me put it to you like this.

If I put down a Raven Guard list heavily optimized to fight Tau from Kauyon and you throw down whatever your Tau list is, and we say "Swap!"--would you?

I can almost guarantee that you would not--because even optimized to fight Tau, that Raven Guard list relies on reserves going off without a hitch, things not getting whacked by EWO, and a hundred other factors that I can't influence but the Tau player can.

Swinging the " We have to fix the whole game to have any chance" is a thought that works theoreticaly but it is a stupit one the moment someone looks for a actual practical way to achive something.

It's really not as stupid as you're making it out to be.

A) Armourbane, Melta, and other high S low AP weapons have no business being shrugged off by MCs that have FNP. These are weapons that are generally described as firing massive solid rounds and tearing through armor or highly destructive weapons that are melting through a tank's hull. They have no business being garbage against MCs/GMCs. Simply adding Fleshbane and/or Rend would go a long way towards making these kinds of things viable again beyond just gimmicky lists or fluffy lists.
and
B) Assault is not the same answer to shooty armies as it used to be. End of story. Any army that can have semi-decent Overwatch effectively neuters Assault armies.

Rather than crapping on the idea of "we have to fix the whole game to have any chance", maybe try actually swapping armies with the people you play against sometime.

You realise that has nothing to do with how fun Tau are to play against right?

* in response to the adepticon results.

Don't hurt me Kan.

With literally every unit I own (I play GK, SM, Eldar, AM) when I put it in the army I say to myself "I hope this doesn't get waxed before it gets to shoot". This includes units like Imperial knights, Wraith knights, NDK, 10 man Terminator Squads, Lemonruss battle tanks. It's not uncommon that these things actually happen.

Then there is the Riptide that every tau brings at least 2 of. One of these dying is something of a rarity. Requiring a series of terrible luck for the tau player. Wouldn't be that bad if riptides were terrible offensive units that "suck without markerlight support" like tau players say but the fact is they have great offensive output all on their own.

Want to make tau fun to paly against? Don't bring riptides...simple as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raverrn wrote:
Just gonna leave this here.

Important to look at that str of sch stat....which I can only imagine means strength of schedule....
Realistic to assume #1 would be the hardest schedule and something like...400? would be the weakest? I see a lot of players crushing weak ones...from the looks of it. Or am I interpreting the data wrong?