Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys,

I've been playing for a while with a group of friends that enjoys going full mac and cheese mode when it comes to optimizing army lists, but I'm looking to bring an army to my local game shop that people will actually be willing to play. So I'm looking to de-optimize my normal list a bit. All suggestions are welcome. I'm currently trying to come up with ideas for a 1500 and 1850 list.

The models I have available:

Skyrunner Farseer x1

Windrider Warlock x1

Scatbikes x12

Aspect Warriors
Warp Spiders x15
Dark Reapers x10
Fire Dragons x6
Swooping Hawks x6

Wraithknight (magnetized for cannons or sword and board) x2

Vehicles
Warp Hunter x2
Lynx x1 (magnetized for pulsar or sonic)
Wave Serpent x1
Vyper x1

I'm not sure there is a way to run those models without having it be pure cheese

well for one we can drop the forgeworld gunline of death, tag in war walkers, fire prisms, nightspinners, even just falcons maybe bring some eldar fighters instead??

then maybe tag out tall dark and gargantuan monsterous creatures for wraithlords

maybe then if you really wanted to be whacky drop the jetbikes altogeather and put more of an emphasis on infantry

this sounds like me basically carving the balls off your list entirely and thats sadly the state of your eldar list, it couldnt get more competitive unless it started cutting points for a revenant titan walker somewhere

Hmm... oh well.. Maybe I'll just to try to get around the issue by offering my opponent a 100-150 pt handicap.

Well...here's your problem.

You only have one unit of troops...and it's the cheesiest troop choice in the game.

Maybe buy a box of guardians or two?

no avatar? he can be super fun and not as OP as a WK.

on the bikes take off some scatter lasers, unless it is a very competitive list I do the old one scatter laser (or shuri cannon) per 3 bikes.

I'd also consider getting as stated above some dire avengers or guardians if looking to power down. neither one is bad, they are still quick and can be very fun/still not knee cap you.

I have shelved my warp spiders completely unless somebody wants a tournament level difficulty. but the other aspects are all fine. I like Dark reapers as a not overpowered heavy option that can be versatile though they are slow. if you lack the models ask to proxy your spiders as striking scorpions, they turn it back from 11 to an 8 or so

Get a few Guardian squads (2 at the very least) and a few warlocks. You can keep the Jetseer as no one expects you to totally handicap yourself for a game.

Drop the Wraithknight. It's mere presence can scare off some people.

Bring in an Avatar and a Falcon if you can.

If you can't get any more models, run the aspect warriors as Aspect Hosts (using the jetbikes as shining spears). This will de-cheesify your force.

To remove cheddar from any list in the game, follow these 3 easy steps.

1. Remove any units CAPABLE of having strength D (don't care if they have it, your opponent will know they can and might be upset)

2. Remove any superheavy/gargantuan creatures from your list.

3. Try to balance your phases. Tricky one I know, especially for us xenos. If you army is super shooty or super psychic, your opponent is probably cracking their knuckles for a mean tweet. Take some of that down and put in a sub par melee unit. I know, I know, they stink, but oh well. Got an army thats super fast? Slow it down a little, yeah yeah, you can't get all 6 objectives, don't worry, you are not supposed to. Bring that tank no one ever brings.

The only army its actually tough to do this for is Necrons. Literally every single option in their book is at least half decent, even tranny C'tan has at least an awesome profile to back up his terrible power generation, dude can walk up and punch stuff out.
Trust me on this one, offering your opponents a handicap is going to come off as a dick move. It sounds really high and mighty. Very "I am so much better, you can take another 150pt" Plus, outside of pre-arranged games, 150pt isn't going to help much, or be easy to add on outside odd vehicle upgrades. If you want to go down that route, handicap yourself "accidentally" play 1850 games and "accidentally" only bring 1700. Just don't let your opponent know if they win, because then you will seem like a butt.


So, No D, no SH/GC and try to balance your phases/speed. Pretend your a space marine army. You'll end up with a nice mid tier army.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
To remove cheddar from any list in the game, follow these 3 easy steps.

1. Remove any units CAPABLE of having strength D (don't care if they have it, your opponent will know they can and might be upset)

2. Remove any superheavy/gargantuan creatures from your list.

3. Try to balance your phases. Tricky one I know, especially for us xenos. If you army is super shooty or super psychic, your opponent is probably cracking their knuckles for a mean tweet. Take some of that down and put in a sub par melee unit. I know, I know, they stink, but oh well. Got an army thats super fast? Slow it down a little, yeah yeah, you can't get all 6 objectives, don't worry, you are not supposed to. Bring that tank no one ever brings.

The only army its actually tough to do this for is Necrons. Literally every single option in their book is at least half decent, even tranny C'tan has at least an awesome profile to back up his terrible power generation, dude can walk up and punch stuff out.
Trust me on this one, offering your opponents a handicap is going to come off as a dick move. It sounds really high and mighty. Very "I am so much better, you can take another 150pt" Plus, outside of pre-arranged games, 150pt isn't going to help much, or be easy to add on outside odd vehicle upgrades. If you want to go down that route, handicap yourself "accidentally" play 1850 games and "accidentally" only bring 1700. Just don't let your opponent know if they win, because then you will seem like a butt.


So, No D, no SH/GC and try to balance your phases/speed. Pretend your a space marine army. You'll end up with a nice mid tier army.

the balanced phase is actually a really good piece of advice! I hate when a person's movement is either everything all over the board because they can (elder), or stationary gun line, groovy and kudos I shall steal this advise for my flgs

@Albireous: Can you swap the Scatter Lasers for Shuricannons on your bikes? I have started doing this in friendly games and it seems to work fine.

Don't field more than 1 WK and always go sword-n-board. Ranged D is more threatening and a CC WK can be tarpitted to some degree, so it is a way to get the best of both worlds (competitive & friendly).

Make sure every list you make has the Warlock, Vyper & Wave Serpent. The former 2 units are considered "tax" units for the formations, so you should treat them like this. Wave Serpents are good, but if you only have 1-2 tanks, most opponents can easily handle this.

Also, DO NOT use the Aspect host. It is clear that is what your Dragons, Spider, Hawks & Reapers have been used for. You can still use those units, just place them in your CAD instead of getting the Formation bonus. Spiders are fine to bring this way. It is only when you bring 30+ Spiders in all Aspect hosts that it gets ridiculus. If your opponent cannot deal with 1-2 units of five T3 models, it is their list that has issues, not yours.

--

Put some flame decals on your wraithlords and use them both as counts-as Avatars.

Shuriken bikes I'd a good start. If you had some non bike troops it would be better.

Limiting yourself to one unit of each aspect will also help make the lists more varied and less minmaxed.

And limit yourself to one WK. That thing is a freaking abomination of balance.

Use orks

in any combination the units you have are OP as basically everything in the codex. go onto ebay and buy an ork lot and use that and actually have fun playing

 Galef wrote:
@Albireous: Can you swap the Scatter Lasers for Shuricannons on your bikes? I have started doing this in friendly games and it seems to work fine.

Don't field more than 1 WK and always go sword-n-board. Ranged D is more threatening and a CC WK can be tarpitted to some degree, so it is a way to get the best of both worlds (competitive & friendly).

Make sure every list you make has the Warlock, Vyper & Wave Serpent. The former 2 units are considered "tax" units for the formations, so you should treat them like this. Wave Serpents are good, but if you only have 1-2 tanks, most opponents can easily handle this.

Also, DO NOT use the Aspect host. It is clear that is what your Dragons, Spider, Hawks & Reapers have been used for. You can still use those units, just place them in your CAD instead of getting the Formation bonus. Spiders are fine to bring this way. It is only when you bring 30+ Spiders in all Aspect hosts that it gets ridiculus. If your opponent cannot deal with 1-2 units of five T3 models, it is their list that has issues, not yours.

--

I actually have found the sword and board to do a TON of work. MUCH more difficult to tarpit, and it can kill pretty much whatever it wants. Getting an invuln save is also nice, especially if your group doesn't give toe-in cover to GMC anymore, as per the latest ITC update.

Hate to say it but looking at your model list I can't see you wanting a fun game. You have a min maxed army.

Honestly? I'd probably pick up one of the Getting Started boxes from a different army and just start something new. Pick a low to mid tier army and build it to be fluffy. Don't min/max and don't research lists online.

Realistically, most of the real advice in this thread has been along the lines of "replace the units you are using with different units". Might as well start a new army and keep your cheese list nice and cheesy.

I think the best way to de-optimize Eldar is use Guard model proxies and Guard rules.

That way you are playing a real army, but also still 'Eldar'.

 Kriswall wrote:
Honestly? I'd probably pick up one of the Getting Started boxes from a different army and just start something new. Pick a low to mid tier army and build it to be fluffy. Don't min/max and don't research lists online.

Realistically, most of the real advice in this thread has been along the lines of "replace the units you are using with different units". Might as well start a new army and keep your cheese list nice and cheesy.

100% this also playing a weak army will make you a better player so if you go to a event with your Eldar you are more likely to win

Oh dear, so many flat out dumb suggestions here, a lot can be toned down with the smallest of changes than just saying 'no you need completely different models, no formations ever or a different faction entirely' just falls into the same tired internet hyperbole...

That said a few more units could really help diverify your list.


Firstly:

A single farseer on Bike - perhaps with some different equipment such as the Shard of Anaris for some 1 on 1 character combat - 155 points

Windrider guardians (3) with Scatterlasers - yes very powerful troops choice with incredible guns, but taken in limited amounts make them much easier to deal with as well as opens up weaknesses in the list - 81 points

Windrider guardians (4) with Scatterlasers Warlock upgrade- last scattersquad with a warlock upgrade for wasting points and some more character 131 points

Warp Spiders (5) Exarch (use the ITC ruling here with only one flickerjump) - very powerful unit and fun to use, a single unit means it's alot easier to deal with and can be taken out oh so easily when caught - 105 points

Vyper with Bright lance, underslung Shuriken Cannon and holofield- Easy to kill unit with mixed match weapons that can generate firstblood for your opponent or could crack open some armour at range (ball parking point cost here) - 75 points

Swooping Hawks (6) Exarch - Start the on the board, t3 bodies with s3 guns, they are very fast but easy to get rid of and can hurt tanks, no aspect host - 106 points

Fire Dragons (5) Exarch with Fire Pike - On foot should make them alot more vulnerable and easier to evade entirely - 140 points

Fire Dragons (5) Exarch with Fire Pike - 140 points

Dark Reapers (5) Exarch with EML and 4 Starshot upgrades - Provides a sting to the list with long range fire power and overspent with upgrades on a t3 slow and purposeful with no bonus to BS - 192 points

Dark Reapers (5) Exarch with EML and 4 Starshot upgrades - 192 Points

Warp Hunter - I really wanted to cut this and still maintain for of a 'footdar' approach but you have limited options, that said, despite the D a single shaken result will reduce the thing to a paperweight for a turn - 185 points


So thats just over 1500 points for a mostly 'footdar' list with no super heavies or gargantuan monsters and two vehicles, everything that is powerful is taken in moderation and is mostly on foot with nothing thats too durable. You can be outscored with limited troops and everything thats powerful can be shut down if made to jink.
Done.

With all that said, it might be worth buying a few more units, not for balance but for list variation because I'm guessing even your competitive list is getting old and tired to use...

 Torus wrote:
Oh dear, so many flat out dumb suggestions here, a lot can be toned down with the smallest of changes than just saying 'no you need completely different models, no formations ever or a different faction entirely' just falls into the same tired internet hyperbole...

That said a few more units could really help diverify your list.


Firstly:

A single farseer on Bike - perhaps with some different equipment such as the Shard of Anaris for some 1 on 1 character combat - 155 points

Windrider guardians (3) with Scatterlasers - yes very powerful troops choice with incredible guns, but taken in limited amounts make them much easier to deal with as well as opens up weaknesses in the list - 81 points

Windrider guardians (4) with Scatterlasers Warlock upgrade- last scattersquad with a warlock upgrade for wasting points and some more character 131 points

Warp Spiders (5) Exarch (use the ITC ruling here with only one flickerjump) - very powerful unit and fun to use, a single unit means it's alot easier to deal with and can be taken out oh so easily when caught - 105 points

Vyper with Bright lance, underslung Shuriken Cannon and holofield- Easy to kill unit with mixed match weapons that can generate firstblood for your opponent or could crack open some armour at range (ball parking point cost here) - 75 points

Swooping Hawks (6) Exarch - Start the on the board, t3 bodies with s3 guns, they are very fast but easy to get rid of and can hurt tanks, no aspect host - 106 points

Fire Dragons (5) Exarch with Fire Pike - On foot should make them alot more vulnerable and easier to evade entirely - 140 points

Fire Dragons (5) Exarch with Fire Pike - 140 points

Dark Reapers (5) Exarch with EML and 4 Starshot upgrades - Provides a sting to the list with long range fire power and overspent with upgrades on a t3 slow and purposeful with no bonus to BS - 192 points

Dark Reapers (5) Exarch with EML and 4 Starshot upgrades - 192 Points

Warp Hunter - I really wanted to cut this and still maintain for of a 'footdar' approach but you have limited options, that said, despite the D a single shaken result will reduce the thing to a paperweight for a turn - 185 points


So thats just over 1500 points for a mostly 'footdar' list with no super heavies or gargantuan monsters and two vehicles, everything that is powerful is taken in moderation and is mostly on foot with nothing thats too durable. You can be outscored with limited troops and everything thats powerful can be shut down if made to jink.
Done.

With all that said, it might be worth buying a few more units, not for balance but for list variation because I'm guessing even your competitive list is getting old and tired to use...

i agree that footdar is easier to kill, but ask yourself.... is it more FUN? I think, if you take all the eldar stuff and stick metal panels on them, they will become ork conversions and youll automatically have a much shittier army

Oh I think it's fun, with all the speciallised footdar units ypu feel like a bit of a conductor directing everything... And I really wish I could say otherwise and maybe it's the Midlands moodiness but I've never seen a happy Ork player... ever.

Doesn't matter who their opponents, they have the same sour glare that Chaos, Blood Angel, Imperial Guard and Dark Eldar have, and after seeing that for too long I couldn't recommend Orks - SORRY but it's true!

Haha you have never played against orks in the UK then?

You can just tell who the ork players are over here haha, heavy metal and a smile. Most of the time we couldn't care less who got the gak beaten out of them, us or them, ideally both, so long as it was a good fight and something wacky happened.

The look your seeing is probably the look of an ork player who has already lost the past ten games against power lists and is now looking down the field at yet another when all he wanted was a bit of fun. A unit taken by his opponent that wasn't taken because it is good but because it's a cool model or it has FUN and RANDOM rules, like a lot of the ork stuff.

I mean, are you seriously telling me that you think players look at the ork codex and say "hey, that's amazing! I'll play them and win everything!"??? No. They don't. Our codex attracts the sort of player who wants to have a bit of fun and doesn't mind blowing himself up in the process, unlike another codex I could mention *ahem* Eldar *ahem*.

I have seen whole teams of people pick up Eldar just because they wanted to win at a tournament! It's too easy to win with your codex. When was the last time you saw a team of just ork players who wanted to come 1st? Exactly. Never.

2/5 of the last tournaments I have been to had a best sportsman Ork player and there must have been 1 or 2 at each event, one of which had 60 people and an Ork still won sportsman despite losing every single game. We keep a smile on our faces no matter our losses. Unlike people who take armies just to win, and thats what makes me angry.

So in response to the op, go onto the GW website and fine some 'cool' models even if they aren't the best units. Take some Rangers. Take some war walkers. Most of the elder players I come across don't even remember half of their codex because in their mind, they can only remember the 'good' units and ignore the cool ones.

Rant over.

I'm dreadfully sorry to say I'm in the midlands in the UK and it seems not all Ork players share your enthusiasm, every since the newest Ork codex those I've encountered are just incredibly sullen about throwing dice with their Orks (even against the weaker armies in the game) that many of them have switched armies.

I love My Eldar, and perhaps to my misfortune I built up an Iyanden style wraith army with no Wave Serpents only to stumble into our current iteration of the 'dex meaning I've pretty much had to create another army so I can get casual games! I try and tone my lists down so others have a chance...perhaps too much (you'll might take pleasure from knowing I recently got utterly destroyed by an Imperial Guard force yesterday because of the toned down list) and I get equally as angry when all Eldar players get tarred with the same brush for all being WAAC gaming donky caves when all we really wanted was elves with guns and wizards on jetbikes.
There are players who bought wraithknights and Crimson hunters as painting projects because they look brilliant, who bought Wraith units because the lore is amazing or aspects because they are a pleasure to field on a table... suddenly through no fault of their own they have become the scourge of warhammer and vilified because they had the audacity of liking a faction and that's just sad.

Perhaps I had misjudged you Torus.

What a weird coincidence haha, I am in West Midlands!
My brother plays Eldar and did even before the new dex, so I understand all of your arguments, and indeed, i agree with them. So fair enough good sir. I did not mean that every eldar player has used and abused the dex, only that it annoys me how unbalanced GW have managed to make them compared to the massive downgrade they just gave orks when they had the chance to do something really cool but fethed it up.

maybe its just my salt showing haha, so I apologise if i offended

 Tiny_Titan wrote:
Perhaps I had misjudged you Torus.

What a weird coincidence haha, I am in West Midlands!
My brother plays Eldar and did even before the new dex, so I understand all of your arguments, and indeed, i agree with them. So fair enough good sir. I did not mean that every eldar player has used and abused the dex, only that it annoys me how unbalanced GW have managed to make them compared to the massive downgrade they just gave orks when they had the chance to do something really cool but fethed it up.

maybe its just my salt showing haha, so I apologise if i offended

No offence taken,

It's just difficult, when you have a more powerful codex it's always on your shoulders to judge and tone down the list and calculate/guess just how powerful your opponent's list will be in order so both people have a good time. Unfortunately its far too easy to tone the list too far and get stomped if you get the mix wrong (Avatar +30 Banshees in an Aspect hosts vs Dark Angel bikers backed up by Fire Raptors) or go too far the other way and utterly wreak the opposition. It's stressful (and now I know what those GM's for role-playing games go through on a daily basis! - set up the bad guys to provide a challenge but not too powerful or the players complain!)

In either case, if you get it wrong you're likely some sort of snide comments from bystanders or opponents telling you you're scum for playing Eldar, and more than double that when you go onto the internet.

I understand your position on the matter, I've seen far too many bandwagon players hop from faction to faction, or buy the newest fad just because it's more likely to win at the expense of the other guy (30-50 Warp Spiders for example). That said I don't mind it as long as casual and competitive lists don't meet on the table, if in a casual environment and somebody brings out stuff like that I'd be sick.

This is how it should be.. OK listen 2things

1) Dont play to win, play to have an amazing fun time
2) It comes down to attitude


Ive been completely tabled and Ive tabled other before, but with the right attitude and "genuine" care for a fun, balanced game, people will have fun rather they lose or win.
One the my most fun games Ive ever had I lost, b.c it was an amazing game, alot of fun things happened.

Give the guy 350 extra points. Bring the list you want. Balanced.

play as corsairs, no official models anyway (for most) take hte WK as a skathatch, the bikes as those funky ones (with brightlances or whatever), that should tone down most things without being insane cheese for you.

The army you have is min/max in my opinion, I am sure there are some more eldar models who derserve your love and care

Just meaning buy unit you love fluff/looks and put them in. Just make a decent list and ask your opponent what he brings if it is more competitive switch some weaker for some stronger units balance it this way.