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Hey guys,

When Roboute Guilliman first put forth the proposal for the Codex Astartes (splitting the Legions up into Chapters, etc), was it a binary disagreement? Let me explain.

Dorn opposed the idea outright and had the support of Russ. Corax and Jaghatai stood by Roboute. What about the others? Regardless of whether or not their Primarch was still alive, where did the other stand on this? Did they stand in support of Robooute like Corax and Jaghatai did? Or in support of Dorn like Russ? Or were they all sitting on the fence on this issue waiting for the result?

Cheers Guys

We know Vulkan opposed it.

Vulkan opposed it because the Salamanders were too small after casualties to split into Legions, but once he got his exemption he supported it. It was just Russ and Dorn, but Dorn caved to prevent another Heresy.

The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

the codez was guilliman's piss pore excuse for a power grab. But yes, basically salamanders, imperial fists, space wolves, and grumblings from every legion really (though not as major) were opposed.

I'm not sure if the Dark Angels openly opposed it, but the did basically ignore it for all intents and purposes.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

The tyranids were a new threat that outstripped the codex Astartes. Guilliman wrote down what he knew about warfare but he had never faced an enemy that was as rapidly adaptable as the Tau, then the Nids come along who literal counteract every strategy you can muster at a cellular level, even evolving immunity to your weapons. Guilliman himself might have been able to handle it, but Calgar is just a Space Marine with a limited experience from Guilliman to draw upon and limited strategic ability, whereas Guilliman's was effectively unlimited as he was creating strategy from scratch.

 Deadshot wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

The tyranids were a new threat that outstripped the codex Astartes. Guilliman wrote down what he knew about warfare but he had never faced an enemy that was as rapidly adaptable as the Tau, then the Nids come along who literal counteract every strategy you can muster at a cellular level, even evolving immunity to your weapons. Guilliman himself might have been able to handle it, but Calgar is just a Space Marine with a limited experience from Guilliman to draw upon and limited strategic ability, whereas Guilliman's was effectively unlimited as he was creating strategy from scratch.

they also cheat by having a second chapter around that they have follow them constantly who they loot people, wargear, and other stuff from

Russ loopholed the hell out of it. There 12 companies. No one argued his Epicly sized loophole.
Dark Angels in real version ignored it. Grand master is no mere chapter master.
Fists, I'm not sure on.

 Deadshot wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

The tyranids were a new threat that outstripped the codex Astartes. Guilliman wrote down what he knew about warfare but he had never faced an enemy that was as rapidly adaptable as the Tau, then the Nids come along who literal counteract every strategy you can muster at a cellular level, even evolving immunity to your weapons. Guilliman himself might have been able to handle it, but Calgar is just a Space Marine with a limited experience from Guilliman to draw upon and limited strategic ability, whereas Guilliman's was effectively unlimited as he was creating strategy from scratch.

Exactomundo.


They finally figured out that little part Guilliman put in the Codex about it not being holy writ and to adapt to changing situations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jhe90 wrote:
Russ loopholed the hell out of it. There 12 companies. No one argued his Epicly sized loophole.
Dark Angels in real version ignored it. Grand master is no mere chapter master.
Fists, I'm not sure on.

Chapters that sprung from the Imperial Fists have a tendency to play fast and loose with the Codex. The Black Templars are the most glaring example.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

The tyranids were a new threat that outstripped the codex Astartes. Guilliman wrote down what he knew about warfare but he had never faced an enemy that was as rapidly adaptable as the Tau, then the Nids come along who literal counteract every strategy you can muster at a cellular level, even evolving immunity to your weapons. Guilliman himself might have been able to handle it, but Calgar is just a Space Marine with a limited experience from Guilliman to draw upon and limited strategic ability, whereas Guilliman's was effectively unlimited as he was creating strategy from scratch.

Exactomundo.


They finally figured out that little part Guilliman put in the Codex about it not being holy writ and to adapt to changing situations.

+1.

The codex was never meant to be an "All shall obey me" rule set - it was a guideline for Guilliman's own ideas to be distributed beyond his Legion.

As for splitting the Legions, I personally think he made the right call. The Space Marines could be split and any heretical roots in a Chapter would only be able to corrupt their 1000 men, and that was only if they could gain the necessary power. Imagine another Legion turning traitor after the Heresy - disastrous.

Like, say, a not-legion of aberrant astartes who openly and purposefully promote horrific mutation, and welcome warp-mutants they've not seen in over 8 thousand years?

Claas wrote:
I'm not sure if the Dark Angels openly opposed it, but the did basically ignore it for all intents and purposes.

I think in public they were all for it so people wouldn't get suspicious of them.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 oldravenman3025 wrote:



The funny thing is, despite Khan's support of Grandpa Smurf and the Codex, the White Scars are not considered a Codex-compliant Chapter in the 41st Millennium.


Hell, even the freakin' Ultramarines stopped following it to the absolute letter after the First Tyrannic War.

The tyranids were a new threat that outstripped the codex Astartes. Guilliman wrote down what he knew about warfare but he had never faced an enemy that was as rapidly adaptable as the Tau, then the Nids come along who literal counteract every strategy you can muster at a cellular level, even evolving immunity to your weapons. Guilliman himself might have been able to handle it, but Calgar is just a Space Marine with a limited experience from Guilliman to draw upon and limited strategic ability, whereas Guilliman's was effectively unlimited as he was creating strategy from scratch.

Exactomundo.


They finally figured out that little part Guilliman put in the Codex about it not being holy writ and to adapt to changing situations.

+1.

The codex was never meant to be an "All shall obey me" rule set - it was a guideline for Guilliman's own ideas to be distributed beyond his Legion.

As for splitting the Legions, I personally think he made the right call. The Space Marines could be split and any heretical roots in a Chapter would only be able to corrupt their 1000 men, and that was only if they could gain the necessary power. Imagine another Legion turning traitor after the Heresy - disastrous.

It also strengthened the Chapters, effectively making them cells instead of a single force. In the GC if a Primarch were to fall, the whole legion be in total dissarray. But if a Chapter were to vanish as it does all the time no one bats an eye. Admittedly no First Founders have died off, but even then it wouldn't be a big deal. The Primogenitors like Genesis Chapter might kick up a fuss if the UM were wiped, but the likes of the Sallies or Wolves would be akin to a memoral service where you have no family just the handful of people at the office you spoke to on occassion. Reading the BA codex it seems like few of their descedants are as attached to the parent as you might think. So now, if one chapter dies, no other chapter is affected,

So basically what we have is this:

For:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Jaghatai Khan
-- Corax

Against:
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Leman Russ
-- Vulkan

Those who gumbled about it:
-- The Dark Angels
-- The Blood Angels
-- The Iron Hands

And what do ya know, splits rather nicely inti thirds, doesn't it? haha

To be honest I didn't think that Chapters like the Ultramarines and White Scars would deviate too far, but I guess that's relative given how far some Chapters have deviated from from the codex.

 IllumiNini wrote:
So basically what we have is this:

For:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Jaghatai Khan
-- Corax

Against:
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Leman Russ
-- Vulkan

Those who gumbled about it:
-- The Dark Angels
-- The Blood Angels
-- The Iron Hands

And what do ya know, splits rather nicely inti thirds, doesn't it? haha

There is even more symmetry when you look at the Primarch's fates. Each group has one who:
Fought hard then was killed:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Sanguinus

Went on a suicidal campaign:
-- The Khan
-- Leman Russ
-- Ferrus Mannus

Disappeared or sooked then vanished:
-- Corax
-- Vulkan
-- The Lion

Almost like GW has a 3 fetish

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:
There is even more symmetry when you look at the Primarch's fates. Each group has one who:
Fought hard then was killed:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Sanguinus

Went on a suicidal campaign:
-- The Khan
-- Leman Russ
-- Ferrus Mannus

Disappeared or sooked then vanished:
-- Corax
-- Vulkan
-- The Lion

Almost like GW has a 3 fetish

Good luck to them getting that fetish past their partners haha

But that is actually brilliantly sneaky of GW to do that.

I don't think the Dark Angels grumbled. According to their codex, they basically got the order and split, because they were trying to avoid drawing attention to themselves, as they were still covering up the fall of Caliban and Luther.

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:
So basically what we have is this:

For:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Jaghatai Khan
-- Corax

Against:
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Leman Russ
-- Vulkan

Those who gumbled about it:
-- The Dark Angels
-- The Blood Angels
-- The Iron Hands

And what do ya know, splits rather nicely inti thirds, doesn't it? haha

There is even more symmetry when you look at the Primarch's fates. Each group has one who:
Fought hard then was killed:
-- Roboute Guilliman
-- Rogal Dorn
-- Sanguinus

Went on a suicidal campaign:
-- The Khan
-- Leman Russ
-- Ferrus Mannus

Disappeared or sooked then vanished:
-- Corax
-- Vulkan
-- The Lion

Almost like GW has a 3 fetish

They actually do have a fetish with the number/s.
'Three times three, the pesedjet of ancient gods, the Occidental orders of angels and the nine cosmic spheres of the forgotten ages.’ -Prospero Burns

We just don't know too much about the very early days of the Imperium immediately after Horus' defeat and the traitors' retreat to the Eye of Terror.

This story would make more compelling reading than the current Horus Heresy series. In that series, they are either rehashing things we already know, or retconning stuff that used to be.

This Ork series is light-years more interesting to the setting than all of the HH series.

For:
Guilliman and the Ultramarines.
Corax and the Raven Guard.
Khan and the White Scars.
The Iron Hands.
The Blood Angels.
The Dark Angels.

Against:
Dorn and the Imperial Fists.
Russ and the Space Wolves.
Vulkan and the Salamanders.

Vulkan was against solely because his own Legion was too small to split. After talking it over with Guilliman he was for it.
Russ actually wanted successor Chapters and tried with the Wolf Brothers, but his gene-seed is too fethed up for planets other than Fenris.
Dorn of course eventually saw sense, but even from the beginning there was a substantial number of Fists who saw the wisdom of the codex, these would become the Fists Exemplar.

The Dark Angels of course never really split.

I suspect the second founding was considerably more complicated then a lotta us act. a lotta people seem to think it was just a power grab by Gulliman (nevermind that if he wanted absolute power splitting his legion, then the largest, was a dumb way to do it) that was opposed by Russ and Dorn. I suspect what happened more so then anything else was that the high lords and the other upper ranked humans, where traumatized by the Heresy, they may well have turned to blaming the loyalist primarchs and their legions. Gulliman in an effort to stop an order to DISBAND the astartes may have proposed the changes as the best chance. his brothers and influential humans we know had some feedback (space marine strike cruisers and battle barges for example we know exist because of a comprimise proposed by Corax. there had been people wanting to strip marines of all warp capable vessels) likewise Russ we know did not TOTALLY oppose the changes, he didn't adopt the codex structure no, but he did split the wolves into two. which, proably was eneugh.
Dorn was the only one in TOTAL oppisition.

BrianDavion wrote:
I suspect the second founding was considerably more complicated then a lotta us act. a lotta people seem to think it was just a power grab by Gulliman (nevermind that if he wanted absolute power splitting his legion, then the largest, was a dumb way to do it) that was opposed by Russ and Dorn. I suspect what happened more so then anything else was that the high lords and the other upper ranked humans, where traumatized by the Heresy, they may well have turned to blaming the loyalist primarchs and their legions. Gulliman in an effort to stop an order to DISBAND the astartes may have proposed the changes as the best chance. his brothers and influential humans we know had some feedback (space marine strike cruisers and battle barges for example we know exist because of a comprimise proposed by Corax. there had been people wanting to strip marines of all warp capable vessels) likewise Russ we know did not TOTALLY oppose the changes, he didn't adopt the codex structure no, but he did split the wolves into two. which, proably was eneugh.
Dorn was the only one in TOTAL oppisition.

personally I don't really see that splitting the legions had any hope of achieving the idea of reducing the powers of anyone group to "do a Horus" and that quite possibly it was a cover up for other things.

I mean do people really think that the legionaries thrown into Chapter X from Legion Y are any less loyal to their original primarch than those From Chapter Z from Legion Y?? of course they are not. After thousands of years of divergence maybe, maybe some of them now think of themselves as separate but really they are just an element of the original legion acting with more autonomy and perhaps with less autonomy than we are led to believe!

Equally do we really think that if Guilliman came out of stasis and said "gak the imperium is fethed up" and started topping the High Lords to sort it out that the vast majority of the ultramarine successor chapters wouldn't follow him rather than following the High Lords as they should?

TheWanderer wrote:

personally I don't really see that splitting the legions had any hope of achieving the idea of reducing the powers of anyone group to "do a Horus" and that quite possibly it was a cover up for other things.

I mean do people really think that the legionaries thrown into Chapter X from Legion Y are any less loyal to their original primarch than those From Chapter Z from Legion Y?? of course they are not. After thousands of years of divergence maybe, maybe some of them now think of themselves as separate but really they are just an element of the original legion acting with more autonomy and perhaps with less autonomy than we are led to believe!

Equally do we really think that if Guilliman came out of stasis and said "gak the imperium is fethed up" and started topping the High Lords to sort it out that the vast majority of the ultramarine successor chapters wouldn't follow him rather than following the High Lords as they should?

I thought the idea of splitting legions into chapters was to limit the resources. Sure, Chapter X, Y and Z may be loyal to their Primach, but their combined might is much less than that of a legion, their coherency is much less than that of a legion and importantly, they're less likely to be in the same place at the same time.

 Griddlelol wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

personally I don't really see that splitting the legions had any hope of achieving the idea of reducing the powers of anyone group to "do a Horus" and that quite possibly it was a cover up for other things.

I mean do people really think that the legionaries thrown into Chapter X from Legion Y are any less loyal to their original primarch than those From Chapter Z from Legion Y?? of course they are not. After thousands of years of divergence maybe, maybe some of them now think of themselves as separate but really they are just an element of the original legion acting with more autonomy and perhaps with less autonomy than we are led to believe!

Equally do we really think that if Guilliman came out of stasis and said "gak the imperium is fethed up" and started topping the High Lords to sort it out that the vast majority of the ultramarine successor chapters wouldn't follow him rather than following the High Lords as they should?

I thought the idea of splitting legions into chapters was to limit the resources. Sure, Chapter X, Y and Z may be loyal to their Primach, but their combined might is much less than that of a legion, their coherency is much less than that of a legion and importantly, they're less likely to be in the same place at the same time.

I was under the impression that it was done to limit the amount of resources a traitor influence could have. If a tainted individual was able to raise to the head of the force, they would take far more men with them if it were a Legion still.

It was a straight up power grab by Guilliman. Most legions didnt have the numbers to be split up much further.
Hes realized he cant be the power behind the throne, might as well take it at gun point.
Dont think the BA grumbled to much. They were busy grieving.
Think most said well, what ever. Were just raised humies, we wont argue with a Primarch.
Yeah Seth was a bit pissed, Not enough to throw Guillimans armour in his face though.

the ancient wrote:
It was a straight up power grab by Guilliman. Most legions didnt have the numbers to be split up much further.
Hes realized he cant be the power behind the throne, might as well take it at gun point.
Dont think the BA grumbled to much. They were busy grieving.
Think most said well, what ever. Were just raised humies, we wont argue with a Primarch.
Yeah Seth was a bit pissed, Not enough to throw Guillimans armour in his face though.

It's a very active imagination you have.


Guilliman was the Lord Commander and a member of the High Lords. If power had ever been his goal, he already had it. By the time the Codex Astartes came around, his Legion was over half the Space Marines in existence, and only growing. He could have ascended as Emperor II, and nobody would have likely even stopped him. Russ might have thrown a tantrum and gone off to do his own thing, but that's about it.

The Ultramarines gave up more than any other Legion. This is the part that people seem to miss. When Guilliman split up the Ultramarines, he lost more power than anyone else. Ultramarines legion = >50%. 8 Legions = <50% Every other primarch sacrificed a small fraction of what Guilliman did.

How you can interpret that as a power grab, I can't imagine.



As far as the opposition to the Codex, this is also a misunderstood concept in 40K for many. The opposition to the Codex just had to do with the other primarchs not wanting to split up their legions.

The Codex has many parts to it. A Codex Chapter simply keeps 10 companies of 100 guys (or something close to that), and follows the guidelines for training and recruitment that were designed to ensure that Space Marines were properly trained and inducted to avoid another Heresy that Guilliman believed happened in a large part because A: there were substandard training practices in place (see: World Eaters) and B: the Marines were more concerned with the cult of personality of their primarch, and were thus loyal to their primarchs first and not to the Emperor and the Imperium. Obviously that wouldn't happen immediately, but he had to believe that over time, the reduced exposure of the primarchs would reduce their influence. The fact that they all died within a thousand years of the Heresy probably helped too. We've seen in the fluff that even though chapters of the same gene line will at least occasionally convene, and even help one another out, they aren't all of a singular mindset. And even for the ones that are, it's still better than it was during the Heresy.

Figure it this way. 50% of the Space Marine Legions fell to Chaos. Right about 2% of Chapters have. That's a pretty substantial improvement, lol.

So when a Chapter is called a Codex Chapter, it's not because they fight according to some set of "rules", it's because they follow the 10x100 and training format. It's why the White Scars, Raven Guard or even Salamanders are still Codex Chapters. Heck, until the most recent Space Marines Codex (7th Ed), the Blood Angels and Dark Angels were still called Codex Chapters. Having a bunch of guys on bikes and land speeders isn't a violation of the Codex. Technically any chapter could do that if you look at the organizational charts. And having a Death Company because your guys sometimes go crazy wouldn't be against any "rules" either.

The reason the legions were broken up is very simple.

Remember Lufgt Huron? Now imagine, if instead of becoming chapter master of the Astral Claws, he became the Commander of the Dark Angels Legion.

 Crazyterran wrote:
The reason the legions were broken up is very simple.

Remember Lufgt Huron? Now imagine, if instead of becoming chapter master of the Astral Claws, he became the Commander of the Dark Angels Legion.

Yeah, don't forget that the Codex Astartes wasn't just a book of tactics. It was designed to establish a "separation of powers" principle and prevent another rogue legion with all the problems that could cause. A similar thing happened when the Imperial Army was separated out into the Navy and Guard, both of whom have to rely on each other to be an effective invasion force.

Don't forget the second founding occurred after Luther's heresy so the DA were in the do anything to avoid suspicion mode so they pretended to go along quite willingly.

There is a great blurb in older fluff where the newly formed imperial navy almost fires on Down for not being willing to break up his legion. My biggest question though is how th SW got around not being codex complaint if that's what happened to the freaking staunchly loyalist imperial fists !?