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 buddha wrote:
Don't forget the second founding occurred after Luther's heresy so the DA were in the do anything to avoid suspicion mode so they pretended to go along quite willingly.

There is a great blurb in older fluff where the newly formed imperial navy almost fires on Down for not being willing to break up his legion. My biggest question though is how th SW got around not being codex complaint if that's what happened to the freaking staunchly loyalist imperial fists !?

They did split, into the Space Wolves and the wolf brothers. Their different training techniques are due to their tribal structure and heritage. As is their company structure, which is largely the same as Battle Companys with a core of experienced all-rounders at the heart. They need to differ because of how hot-headed new recruits are, making them unsuitable for Devastator or Scout squads, whereas the grizzled tempered veterans are better, and the best warriors become Veterans and Command Squads in the form of Wolf Guard

They got away with it as technically each Great Company is self sufficient with its own ships whereas normal companies in standard Chapters share a fleet and vehicle pool. Russ followed the word of the Codex but nobody bothered to check further.

pm713 wrote:
They got away with it as technically each Great Company is self sufficient with its own ships whereas normal companies in standard Chapters share a fleet and vehicle pool. Russ followed the word of the Codex but nobody bothered to check further.

actually Russ didn't follow the WORD of the Codex, he followed the SPIRIT.

the space wolves don't follow the orginization. but Russ agreed to split his legion into two. we also know that the inital ambition was to have more then just 1 sucessor chapter. and that the hope was to create a force known as "the Sons of Russ" whom would encircle the Eye of Terror. So Russ may well have wanted to split the wolves further, but the disaster of the wolf brothers scuttled those plans. the fact remains the space wolves where kept small and split. only Dorn outright refused to do any of this.

Honestly I suspect the rest of the Codex was optional, but was seen by most of the other primarchs as a good model. and was proably quite similer to the model used by most of the legions anyway.

pm713 wrote:

Claas wrote:
I'm not sure if the Dark Angels openly opposed it, but the did basically ignore it for all intents and purposes.

I think in public they were all for it so people wouldn't get suspicious of them.

I was reading the DA codex yesterday,

They agreed to form successor chapters to keep up the appearances. Their Chapter Master is actually de facto leader of the other successor Chapters, they have cross-chapter meetings and each pursue the same secret objective (The Fallen).

However, in terms of Chapter organization, the Dark Angels are actually mostly codex-compliant - that is to say, 8 of their Companies are literally Codex top to bottom. This is reflected in the Lion's Blade detachment, which is a direct mirror of the Gladius Strike Force - 3 Tactical squads, 1 devastator squad, and 1 assault squad per demi company, with one chap and one captain per demi company.

The only real discrepancy they have is the 1st and 2nd company. The 1st company is of course 100% Terminator armor in DA and in all successor chapters, and its strength is not revealed to the public. However, we know it has 20 squads of Deathwing Terminators plus 3 squads of Knights, so realistically it's probably 100+ men like every other company. They also hinted this elsewhere in the Codex where they mentioned two complete 1st companies from 2 different chapters being employed being about 200 Terminators.

The 2nd company is the only really nutty thing about Dark Angels. It's strength is not revealed, the Codex doesn't say what it's composed of. All we know is that it's a bunch of landspeeders and some other crap.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Guilliman was the Lord Commander and a member of the High Lords. If power had ever been his goal, he already had it. By the time the Codex Astartes came around, his Legion was over half the Space Marines in existence, and only growing. He could have ascended as Emperor II, and nobody would have likely even stopped him. Russ might have thrown a tantrum and gone off to do his own thing, but that's about it.

So, its not a power grab because he'd already grabbed power?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The Ultramarines gave up more than any other Legion. This is the part that people seem to miss. When Guilliman split up the Ultramarines, he lost more power than anyone else. Ultramarines legion = >50%. 8 Legions = <50% Every other primarch sacrificed a small fraction of what Guilliman did.

How you can interpret that as a power grab, I can't imagine.

Its technically a consolidation of power. He split his legion and gave them home worlds across the galaxy- essentially Team Ultramarines, Imperium police.
He ordered other primarchs to split their legions- something not within his remit as their equal. By having the loyal legions split up and space out, there was no one force that could oppose him. He required the other legions to follow suit to remove the downside of his largest legion spreading out to enforce his rule. With loyalist fist/wolf chapters isolated on new planets, far from support, sandwiched between three or four Ultramarine successors, he could keep everyone in line.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

As far as the opposition to the Codex, this is also a misunderstood concept in 40K for many. The opposition to the Codex just had to do with the other primarchs not wanting to split up their legions.

The Codex has many parts to it. A Codex Chapter simply keeps 10 companies of 100 guys (or something close to that), and follows the guidelines for training and recruitment that were designed to ensure that Space Marines were properly trained and inducted to avoid another Heresy that Guilliman believed happened in a large part because A: there were substandard training practices in place (see: World Eaters) and B: the Marines were more concerned with the cult of personality of their primarch, and were thus loyal to their primarchs first and not to the Emperor and the Imperium. Obviously that wouldn't happen immediately, but he had to believe that over time, the reduced exposure of the primarchs would reduce their influence. The fact that they all died within a thousand years of the Heresy probably helped too. We've seen in the fluff that even though chapters of the same gene line will at least occasionally convene, and even help one another out, they aren't all of a singular mindset. And even for the ones that are, it's still better than it was during the Heresy.

Figure it this way. 50% of the Space Marine Legions fell to Chaos. Right about 2% of Chapters have. That's a pretty substantial improvement, lol.

So when a Chapter is called a Codex Chapter, it's not because they fight according to some set of "rules", it's because they follow the 10x100 and training format. It's why the White Scars, Raven Guard or even Salamanders are still Codex Chapters. Heck, until the most recent Space Marines Codex (7th Ed), the Blood Angels and Dark Angels were still called Codex Chapters. Having a bunch of guys on bikes and land speeders isn't a violation of the Codex. Technically any chapter could do that if you look at the organizational charts. And having a Death Company because your guys sometimes go crazy wouldn't be against any "rules" either.

I think its a great deal woollier than that.

Insignum Astartes wrote:The Codex Astartes

Roboute Guilliman's greatest work describes and prescribes how the entire Imperial military should be organised and how it should fight. Within its hallowed pages are long treatises on all manner of tactics and strategies for virtually all of the soldiers, warriors and war machines known to the Imperium. Of special interest is the volume devoted to the Space Marines. This volume sets out how a Chapter should be structured, recruit, train, fight and dress. In fact every aspect of being a Space Marine is covered in some detail.

The original Codex was compiled approximately ten thousand years ago in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy. It is not known what form the original took: it may have been a manuscript or it may have been a compilation of holo-files or even some combination. Of course manuscript copies were made and distributed. The oldest surviving copy of the Codex is reputed to be the Apocrypha of Skaros. The Liber Arcanum of Grand Marshall Tolof and the Holo-Record 442/33508; Gant Manuscript v2 of the Ceris Archive have some claim to this honour as well. Over the millennia the copies have been copied and recopied many times in order to preserve them. Inevitably, mistakes occur and so it is unlikely that any two copies of the Codex will be identical. Furthermore, the work is constantly being reanalysed and reinterpreted. The original prose style of Roboute is at best archaic and in some cases almost unintelligible. This has led to many varied interpretations over the centuries and to many situations where two entirely different doctrines have been legitimately claimed as 'official Codex' at the same time.

.....Even though there are relatively few Codex Chapters amongst the thousand or so Chapters currently active across the Imperium some Imperial scholars reckon there to be well over a hundred of them and there may be as many as two to three hundred in truth.

Because of disagreement and interpretation, there can be 'Codex' chapters with differing doctrines and organization than the ultramarines, just as there are many christian sects today.

And the fact remains that any chapter is still a tremendous fighting force. We're told its enough to overthrow a world. And yet, Guilleman considered it better that these self contained world conquering forces be given ships and zero supervision that remain part of a larger brotherhood.

However, the Ultramarine successors are notorious for joint actions. Even vastly differing cultures like the Mortifactors are expected to join in when a 4th company captain of the Ultramarines drops by.
Chapters with simultaneous foundings like the Black Consuls and White Consuls retain not only ties to Calgar but to each other.

The fists have also retained a sense of loyalty to each other and consider it a duty to police their own, should one of them fall.

So, its not a power grab because he'd already grabbed power?

pretty much... yeah. he didn't exactly need to play sneaky weird political games, because he was already master of the Imperium. something he also stepped away from once the, badly needed reforms where in place. you can run around making tin foil hat examinations of his actions. but we've already seen the result. the IoM was reformed, and Gulliman went and lead the ultramarines CHAPTER.

Its technically a consolidation of power. He split his legion and gave them home worlds across the galaxy- essentially Team Ultramarines, Imperium police.
He ordered other primarchs to split their legions- something not within his remit as their equal. By having the loyal legions split up and space out, there was no one force that could oppose him. He required the other legions to follow suit to remove the downside of his largest legion spreading out to enforce his rule. With loyalist fist/wolf chapters isolated on new planets, far from support, sandwiched between three or four Ultramarine successors, he could keep everyone in line.

.......... riiiiiiiiight see my comment earlier about tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. ok first of all. Gulliman wasn't acting as a primarch. he was acting as a high lord. it's very obvious in fact Gulliman took steps to limit the powers of the Primarchs. fact is, what you're suggesting... NEVER HAPPENED. Gulliman had a lot of power, he didn't attempt to crown himself, etc.. he made the reforms he belived where nesscary, reforms that may well have been needed to prevent the Imperium from deciding they needed to exterminate all the Space Marines, and walked away from that power. if you're going to go back in time and accuse a character of being power hungry dude don't go around claiming the guy who HAD that power and walked away is the guy.

However, the Ultramarine successors are notorious for joint actions. Even vastly differing cultures like the Mortifactors are expected to join in when a 4th company captain of the Ultramarines drops by.
Chapters with simultaneous foundings like the Black Consuls and White Consuls retain not only ties to Calgar but to each other.

the Motifactors hadn't seen the ultramarines since the second founding in that case. they where asked for assistance and granted it because it related to an old vow of honor Gulliman had made dating back to the great crusade. and thus choose (not where forced, CHOSE) to honor it.
and if you think that's some unique thing to the Ultramarines you're fooling yourself. we know the Imperial fists and their sucessors meet every century or so for a club house meeting. it's a safe bet that m ost chapters would at least consider honoring a debt of honor their founding legion had made dating back to the crusade,

Lol, the Dark Angels' successor chapters are literally under the governance of Azrael. The codex even details an event where the Imperial Guard was abandoned by a successor chapter to go hunt for the fallen when they were under siege by millions of orks.

The Dark Angels successor chapters have multiple joint operations described in great detail. They are basically copies of the main Chapter and subscribe to the same leadership.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

personally I don't really see that splitting the legions had any hope of achieving the idea of reducing the powers of anyone group to "do a Horus" and that quite possibly it was a cover up for other things.

I mean do people really think that the legionaries thrown into Chapter X from Legion Y are any less loyal to their original primarch than those From Chapter Z from Legion Y?? of course they are not. After thousands of years of divergence maybe, maybe some of them now think of themselves as separate but really they are just an element of the original legion acting with more autonomy and perhaps with less autonomy than we are led to believe!

Equally do we really think that if Guilliman came out of stasis and said "gak the imperium is fethed up" and started topping the High Lords to sort it out that the vast majority of the ultramarine successor chapters wouldn't follow him rather than following the High Lords as they should?

I thought the idea of splitting legions into chapters was to limit the resources. Sure, Chapter X, Y and Z may be loyal to their Primach, but their combined might is much less than that of a legion, their coherency is much less than that of a legion and importantly, they're less likely to be in the same place at the same time.

I was under the impression that it was done to limit the amount of resources a traitor influence could have. If a tainted individual was able to raise to the head of the force, they would take far more men with them if it were a Legion still.

I think you may have missed the point is was trying to make. I am saying that splitting Legions into chapters really did nothing to limit the resources or the influence. Chapters made from the original Legions would still in truth be loyal to the original Legion and would bring all of its resources to bear in support of it.

It changed nothing in regards to the LEGIONS and chapters.

I think it did however have more significant impact on the Imperial Army as it split it into fundamentally separate functions - Guard on the ground with no ships to move them and Navy in space with no real troops to fight. For the Legions/CHapters they still had BOTH those aspects so were not really restricted at all

Have any entire Space Marine chapters actually been corrupted to Chaos since the Horus Heresy?

RE, here's one: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Astral_Blades

The Astral Blades were a formerly Loyalist Space Marine Chapter of unknown Founding and origin. In 121.M37, they were led down the path to Chaos by their prideful Chapter Master, who has been possessed by the Daemon Etherak the Unrepentant. The Daemon's servants used sorcery to possess almost every battle-brother within the Chapter's subterranean fortress-monastery one by one, slaughtering those strong enough to resist. As the blood of the last of the fallen was still cooling, the possessed Space Marines plundered the Chapter's gene-seed stores and set off for the Eye of Terror. However, when their Battle Barge, Sword of Stars, reached high orbit, the Grey Knights were waiting for them. In the furious battle that ensued, Grey Knights Terminators teleported onto the bridge of the Battle Barge and banish Etherak back into the Warp in the midst of a furious melee. Broken in body and spirit, the Chapter Master of the Astral Blades accepts the Emperor's mercy delivered at the hands of his "saviours." Nothing else is known about this obscure Chapter in official Imperial records.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

the ancient wrote:
It was a straight up power grab by Guilliman. Most legions didnt have the numbers to be split up much further.
Hes realized he cant be the power behind the throne, might as well take it at gun point.
Dont think the BA grumbled to much. They were busy grieving.
Think most said well, what ever. Were just raised humies, we wont argue with a Primarch.
Yeah Seth was a bit pissed, Not enough to throw Guillimans armour in his face though.

It's a very active imagination you have.


Guilliman was the Lord Commander and a member of the High Lords. If power had ever been his goal, he already had it. By the time the Codex Astartes came around, his Legion was over half the Space Marines in existence, and only growing. He could have ascended as Emperor II, and nobody would have likely even stopped him. Russ might have thrown a tantrum and gone off to do his own thing, but that's about it.

How you can interpret that as a power grab, I can't imagine.

Who made him lord commander? His extra large legion. That really have done nothing so far in the heresy.
He has realized trying to be the puppet master didnt work, Better to take it at the end of a bolt gun. What would have happened if he had of pulled the trigger. Every ones dead just so he could be the boss.

the ancient wrote:

Who made him lord commander? His extra large legion. That really have done nothing so far in the heresy.
He has realized trying to be the puppet master didnt work, Better to take it at the end of a bolt gun. What would have happened if he had of pulled the trigger. Every ones dead just so he could be the boss.

Snuh?

The other High-Lords of Terra made him Lord Commander. They tried to make him Emperor, but he refused.

I mean, seriously, nothing you're saying makes any sense. Guilliman was literally handed the Imperium by those in charge of it, and he didn't take it. Not only that, but he down-sized his already existing empire so it could reintegrate with the Imperum as a whole.

You have absolutely no case. Consider reading any of the reams of information on this subject.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

the ancient wrote:

Who made him lord commander? His extra large legion. That really have done nothing so far in the heresy.
He has realized trying to be the puppet master didnt work, Better to take it at the end of a bolt gun. What would have happened if he had of pulled the trigger. Every ones dead just so he could be the boss.

Snuh?

The other High-Lords of Terra made him Lord Commander. They tried to make him Emperor, but he refused.

I mean, seriously, nothing you're saying makes any sense. Guilliman was literally handed the Imperium by those in charge of it, and he didn't take it. Not only that, but he down-sized his already existing empire so it could reintegrate with the Imperum as a whole.

You have absolutely no case. Consider reading any of the reams of information on this subject.

I feel many people want to push Guilliman as some sort of Empire-building dictator, but as DarknessEternal says, he never made any attempt to secede from the Imperium, or take over, he was a loyal servant of the Emperor. He was stuck away from the war because Horus made deliberately sure of that, as the XIII would have easily won the war for whatever side they joined because of their numbers, skill and superior tactics.

 Deadshot wrote:

I feel many people want to push Guilliman as some sort of Empire-building dictator, but as DarknessEternal says, he never made any attempt to secede from the Imperium, or take over, he was a loyal servant of the Emperor. He was stuck away from the war because Horus made deliberately sure of that, as the XIII would have easily won the war for whatever side they joined because of their numbers, skill and superior tactics.

He also made no attempt whatsoever to travel to Terra for a long time. As the legion with the most numbers he could definitely have afforded to risk a few more than say the Salamanders, who got there long before him. In fact at one stage 5 primarchs are in his second empire and 2 good and 1 bad one get there before him, or even any of his troops. The other good (or is he?) even gets to his own home before RG leaves his nest

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

I feel many people want to push Guilliman as some sort of Empire-building dictator, but as DarknessEternal says, he never made any attempt to secede from the Imperium, or take over, he was a loyal servant of the Emperor. He was stuck away from the war because Horus made deliberately sure of that, as the XIII would have easily won the war for whatever side they joined because of their numbers, skill and superior tactics.

He also made no attempt whatsoever to travel to Terra for a long time. As the legion with the most numbers he could definitely have afforded to risk a few more than say the Salamanders, who got there long before him. In fact at one stage 5 primarchs are in his second empire and 2 good and 1 bad one get there before him, or even any of his troops. The other good (or is he?) even gets to his own home before RG leaves his nest

Firstly, Guilliman was purposefully delayed by Lorgar. The attack on Calth destroyed a great many of his fleet. Then he had Lorgar and Angron ravaging Ultramar. Was he just supposed to leave them unmolested? No. He didn't know what state Terra was going to be in, but he couldn't allow Lorgar and Angron to run around destroying the Inperium. Then once that was over Angron was already a Daemon Primarch. Then he had to deal with Warpstorms on a galactic scale. Also, do you know how hard it is communicating and maneuvering an army like the XIII when you basically rely on messanger pigeons?

Think back to WW1 Russia, where the only way to communicate back and forth was to send a messenger on a train for weeks to deliver a message because know one could read or write. Then getting everyone together is a task because you only have trains, which only follow set paths and take weeks to get your troops mobilised, exactly like the warp has set paths you can travel. Now imagine if those train tracks had been scrambled and rearranged in a hurricane and could literally end you up back where you began, or even before WHEN you began. Plus imagine one of your major allies launches an all out surprise assault and wipes out your major industrial centre, then they and another "ally" begin systematically butchering your people town by town, no mercy or quarter. Then imagine that the storms finally die down enough to get everyone moving except all the trains are damaged.

That's literally Guilliman's problem.

more to the point as for who made Gulliman the Lord commander and why, let's look at the surviving loyalist primarchs (we KNOW Sanguinis is dead, and I'm 99% sure the Lion will be dead by time the seige of terra ends too)

Dorn : Seemed more intreasted in chasing off after the triator legions, given what we know it seems possiable he was even suffering from PTSD.
Leman Russ: even if the High Lords where willing to grant the "Barbarian King" the position, would Russ want it? he never struck me as an administrator,
Jaghiati Khan: see Russ, same applies.
Vulkan: we don't really know his mental state by the end of the Heresy. but I suspect he had his own house to get in order.
Corax: after the messing up of so much of the rraven guard geneseed etc, I got a hunch the guy's too guilt ridden to even consider accepting more responsability.



so yeah other then Gulliman the Primarchs are eaither not intreasted in the kinda work required and or too mentally farked up.

The Lion was around in the Siege of Terra and its immediate aftermath. However, he wasn't around for much of the scouring and reformation - after the battle, the first thing he did was head to Caliban where [NOTHING HAPPENED].

Actually, we're given strong hints that none of the Imperial Fists successors were particularly codex-compliant. The Black Templars weren't, but nor in many ways were the Imperial Fists until they deployed to Ardamantua in M32 where [NOTHING HAPPENED]. Equally, we don't know what the Crimson Fists were like pre-Rynn's World, and their rebuilding was essentially done with oversight and sponsorship from the High Lords, who'd be flicking through an index of the Codex Astartes as they watched.

Gulliman was made Lord Commander (a purely military title but essentially "I don't want to use the word Warmaster") by the High Lords, but let's be fair - there wasn't really much of a political structure of the Imperium capable of arguing; the Emperor was (functionally) dead, Malcador was actually dead, most of the senior civil service lived in the outer palace so were definitely dead.....

As long as he could sell the other primarchs on the deal, who else was there? Note that whilst the Inquisition existed, it was the Primarchs who were vouching for the Inquisitors to the Senatorum, not the other way around.

The single most important thing he did isn't actually breaking up the legions. It's the Army. Before this, the army was the Auxilia, directly subordinate to legion commanders, and with its integral fleet units to keep up with them.

By detaching the army from legion command, a putative rebel marine loses the manpower he needs to garrison worlds. More importantly, the fleet combined into a single organisation with responsabilities far beyond transporting and protecting the army and legion expeditionary fleets - the Imperial Navy is arguably the most important arm of the Imperial military from this point on.

Certainly, by M.32, the High Admiral is a high lord separate from the Lord Commander.

locarno24 wrote:
Equally, we don't know what the Crimson Fists were like pre-Rynn's World, and their rebuilding was essentially done with oversight and sponsorship from the High Lords, who'd be flicking through an index of the Codex Astartes as they watched.

Well, we know that up until late M40 they were a fleet-based crusade chapter, not unlike the Black Templars.
We also know that during the Rynn's World incident they were at the very least mostly codex-compliant with companies and the like. It's very possible that even while they were a still fleet-based crusade chapter they were mostly codex compliant, otherwise the entire chapter would have to had reformed in 5-7 centuries, which is a really drastic and abrupt change if the chapter was like the Black Templars for 9 millennia.

Plus iirc most other crusade chapters are mostly codex compliant, with the BT's being an exception. So it's likely that the CF's have been mostly codex complaint since their inception, or at the very least became codex complaint in the centuries that followed.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Equally, we don't know what the Crimson Fists were like pre-Rynn's World, and their rebuilding was essentially done with oversight and sponsorship from the High Lords, who'd be flicking through an index of the Codex Astartes as they watched.

Well, we know that up until late M40 they were a fleet-based crusade chapter, not unlike the Black Templars.
We also know that during the Rynn's World incident they were at the very least mostly codex-compliant with companies and the like. It's very possible that even while they were a still fleet-based crusade chapter they were mostly codex compliant, otherwise the entire chapter would have to had reformed in 5-7 centuries, which is a really drastic and abrupt change if the chapter was like the Black Templars for 9 millennia.

Plus iirc most other crusade chapters are mostly codex compliant, with the BT's being an exception. So it's likely that the CF's have been mostly codex complaint since their inception, or at the very least became codex complaint in the centuries that followed.

agreed, unless GW specificly says, we should assume any chapter presented to us, is Codex compliant. because we're told, repeatedly, the Codex is the norm

BrianDavion wrote:


agreed, unless GW specificly says, we should assume any chapter presented to us, is Codex compliant. because we're told, repeatedly, the Codex is the norm

I don't think that's true.

Insignum Astartes wrote:
.....Even though there are relatively few Codex Chapters amongst the thousand or so Chapters currently active across the Imperium some Imperial scholars reckon there to be well over a hundred of them and there may be as many as two to three hundred in truth.

We may broadly assume that there are 1000-ish battle brothers in the chapter and that they have companies- that they are aware of the codex and that they may wish to avoid censure for legion building.

 =Angel= wrote:
I don't think that's true.

Insignum Astartes wrote:
.....Even though there are relatively few Codex Chapters amongst the thousand or so Chapters currently active across the Imperium some Imperial scholars reckon there to be well over a hundred of them and there may be as many as two to three hundred in truth.

Ah, very interesting!

 =Angel= wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


agreed, unless GW specificly says, we should assume any chapter presented to us, is Codex compliant. because we're told, repeatedly, the Codex is the norm

I don't think that's true.

Insignum Astartes wrote:
.....Even though there are relatively few Codex Chapters amongst the thousand or so Chapters currently active across the Imperium some Imperial scholars reckon there to be well over a hundred of them and there may be as many as two to three hundred in truth.

We may broadly assume that there are 1000-ish battle brothers in the chapter and that they have companies- that they are aware of the codex and that they may wish to avoid censure for legion building.

the quote is contridcited by pretty much everything that I've ever seen written about space Marines.

Yeah, the UM are the source of 60% odd of chapters which would imply 60%+ would be Codex. The IF are the next biggest and that's maybe another 20%

Specificalishot 685521 8574532 232d798a364923199dc92df23ca2a444.jpg]Yeah, the UM are the source of 60% odd of chapters which would imply 60%+ would be Codex. The IF are the next biggest and that's maybe another 20%

Gulliman wasnt and has never been a empire builder.
Hes a empire holder. Expansion has never been his thing.