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Sometimes kill points is the scenario you roll though.

I know. But that rarely influences my list construction.

Martel732 wrote:
I know. But that rarely influences my list construction.

Gotta agree. Playing KDK kind of already screws you on Kill Points missions just by the nature of the armies you have to build. I'll take the 1/6 chances.

Yeah, my area plays with a 'normal' amount of terrain. Meaning not enough to hide an entire dang army, but enough to get cover of most things. So I will concede that heavier Terrain would have indeed made a big difference. But you have a say in how much terrain is used in your games and can ask your opponent to thin it out before the game starts (tourneys not withstanding)

And BTW, I got first turn in this situation and was only able to kill 3 Rhinos in my turn because of all that cover. All 5 Scatterbike units were in range of his Rhino line and able to jump back. DK's (having 24" range) had to get closer to shoot...big mistake apparently. Most of the Scatterbikes were killed by 3 Drop pod units and some Heavy Bolters. The Tactically doctrine to re-roll hits was BRUTAL. Overall I am glad Marines have these options and would like to see BAs get something similar.

Had the game not been Vangaurd, I would not have been trapped in a corner and able to Jump-Shoot-Jump more effectively.
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If you can find a way to corner the bulk of the Eldar Force, or be in their "safe zone" turn 1, you can negate their speed advantage. Try to think past turn 1 as well and place units where the Bikes might want to Turbo-boost. Scatterbikes fold like Tac Marines, but run easier and farther. Instead of focusing on 1 unit until it is dead, you are better off killing 1-2 per unit to force LD checks. If you have leftover firepower after that, go ahead and pew-pew them.

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Skimmers can always fly right over your units. You can't corner them. Your suggestion is going to get you assaulted by WK.

Martel732 wrote:
Skimmers can always fly right over your units. You can't corner them. Your suggestion is going to get you assaulted by WK.

As mentioned, if the Jetbikes attempt to "fly right over units", they will actually be closer to those units than before, hence they are cornered. If they are just outside 24" of the Rhino line (that should be right in the center line of the table) and move 48" over them, they are now actually 24" within the Rhino line, just on the other side of it.

If you are scouting forward, you're getting charged by a WK regardless. and said WK killing either a 35pt....I mean free Rhino, or a ~100pt Marine unit. If you're playing against Eldar, you expect to lose units, but what I am suggesting (and my skilled opponent agreed), the best way to counter this is by not having any "important" units to target. Gladius provides this in spades. Free boxes that get you into position guaranteed (6+ scouting Rhinos AND 6+ Drop Pods) and the Rhinos protect the Marines inside by forcing 1-2 units to shoot at them before being able to hurt the Marines.

Again, I suggest this is as a counter to Eldar, not that it is the best list ever.

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It's exactly what I said. You flood the table and just hope you can score faster than he wrecks you.

Have you ever heard of reserves? Aka DON'T have your most valuable units on the field turn 1? And I understand that the OP might have nowhere to run...but you don't exactly have to run from a rhino. Remember, if the SM player drops into your deployment zone with a bunch of infantry your bikes can simply move+turboboost to the other side of the table and dance around at 36" until all the marines are dead. Jetbikes/warp spiders can move over terrain/other models so you aren't exactly getting boxed in. You can probably deepstrike a bunch of your army too so redeployment is easy...as long as you don't get tabled on turn one and remember that 2/3rds of your your army has as much firepower as his entire army, you'll still make it a cloe game at worst and a win at best.

 greyknight12 wrote:
Have you ever heard of reserves? Aka DON'T have your most valuable units on the field turn 1? And I understand that the OP might have nowhere to run...but you don't exactly have to run from a rhino. Remember, if the SM player drops into your deployment zone with a bunch of infantry your bikes can simply move+turboboost to the other side of the table and dance around at 36" until all the marines are dead. Jetbikes/warp spiders can move over terrain/other models so you aren't exactly getting boxed in. You can probably deepstrike a bunch of your army too so redeployment is easy...as long as you don't get tabled on turn one and remember that 2/3rds of your your army has as much firepower as his entire army, you'll still make it a cloe game at worst and a win at best.

We been saying this, But I guess his Terrain takes up over 60% the table space and I guess they play it you cant go in builds/ruins? B.c he keeps thinking 3-4 drop pods and 4-5 Rhinos fills the table enough that you cant "Find" a place to move (Even after you blow a whole on 1 side).

TheoryHammer is great, but you should play a game once in a while and see how it really works

 Galef wrote:
TheoryHammer is great, but you should play a game once in a while and see how it really works

I play every week, multi times.

 Galef wrote:
TheoryHammer is great, but you should play a game once in a while and see how it really works

I've watched Eldar players do this to Gladius lists before. It doesn't always work, because there is so much to kill. But still.

First of all, I need to apologized. My comment was a bit harsh and that was not my intent. I am getting frustrated that it doesn't seem like I am explaining myself. very well.

I am not saying to "rush" the Eldar deployment zone, but rather to Scout all the Rhinos into positions that get them just within 24" of some targets, thereby created a 48" oblong bubble and position so that any potential "hiding spots" can be seen. Then the Drop Pods come in, making any remaining space in the Eldar deployment zone unappealing for the Eldar to stay in, even though they may be out of range of the Grav units in the Rhinos.
If the Eldar choses to Turbo-boost away, they will still be within range of some Grav and there should be very few spots to hide. Then the other pods drop in where need. Full board coverage AND with a higher number of unit that were "free" than most Eldar lists have normally.

I am fortunate enough to regularly play against fairly high caliber opponents that make these standard tactics. Both Alpha Strike and positioning for turn 2. Against these opponents, "just flying over them" is not a good idea as I will not only forfeit shooting, but still get shot at.

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If this is a gladius force, you are going to have trouble leveraging enough firepower to make Eldar care. More than likely, rather than flying over you, they'll just massacre your drop force and then start massacring your rhino forces. Fortunately, you have a lot to massacre.

Gladius gives you a bunch of extra obj sec stuff AND an extra 500 pts for Eldar to shoot up. That's the bottom line. There is no magical positioning or magic drop force because marines' firepower sucks compared to Eldar.

Ok buddy... unoptimized, eldar/gk list lost to top tier marines load out with an alpha strike...

Love you bro.... but... hard counter it is not. Tough match up granted, but 2/3 times puredar should wreck the Gladius.