Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.

I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.

That seems like parsing language to me. They have a B&M location which should satisfy the distribution issue. Does PP also require a store to have X number of table or X amount of non-retail gaming space to not be considered a "free rider"?

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

That seems like parsing language to me. They have a B&M location which should satisfy the distribution issue. Does PP also require a store to have X number of table or X amount of non-retail gaming space to not be considered a "free rider"?

I don't recall in the first post them even mentioning an exact discount that they considered to be the cutoff for being put on their double super secret probation list. It's better for them if they just leave everything as vague as possbile, you know... for the benefit of the player community and FLGS, so they can add or subtract businesses from the naughty list based on how they feel. Stuff like publicly available criteria just gets in the way of the all powerful whim.

I'm not going to get into whether or not MM should be considered a free rider. I'm just saying that they haven't been an FLGS for about... five years now, I think? I think it's been that long since they were on Watson, but my memory isn't terribly good.

MEH... kinda support where they come from as some one with 10 years of BnM retail exp i think the internet has created an unsustainable level of competition that has very real world effects. At the same time i feel certain retailers offer nothing to deserve special treatment and have sown the seeds of there own demise, but many people just want it cheaper and a lot that dont care about come back, community and service that this is the way its progressively going to go unless product manufactures and governments step in and make changes. Personally I buy as little as possible from the internet and support good quality shops that deserve it.

 warboss wrote:

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Do you have a quote/link or are you just assuming that from the recent sale?

Check their facebook page. Lots of people are asking them and they're saying that at the moment, they don't see themselves reducing their discount at all

Thanks. I'll take a peek.

According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.

http://archive.is/ytF60

DGI also stopped selling X-Wing. Poor dude is getting slammed every which way. Malifaux alone wont keep on the lights.

Sining wrote:
According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.

http://archive.is/ytF60

I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.

Schmapdi wrote:

Sining wrote:
According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.

http://archive.is/ytF60

I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.

If he has also been stopped from selling xwing or it is simply not viable then that could also be another reason since FFG announced a similar policy a few months back. He's never been able to sell 40k/fantasy/aos online at similar discount and now warmahorde is affected right after xwing. Do you want to know what the most popular minis games in the industry according to ICV2 are? 40k, warmahorde, and xwing...all of which are now affected by unfriendly discount policies and potential manufacturer blacklisting.

Schmapdi wrote:

Sining wrote:
According to the owner of DGI, apparently sales have gone down a lot since they enacted PPs new resolution. Like total profit is 50% down for that period. Also says DGI is hanging by a thread thanks to this new rule that they're trying to follow.

http://archive.is/ytF60

I don't like the new rules - but they've only been in affect 2 days now, so if they are hanging by a thread now that was likely the case before the policy change.

Could be he's calculated that based on the past 2 days, he will barely be able to cover his expenditure by end of month.

"Unfortunately, the nature of that crackdown, or even what Privateer Press will classify as a "free rider" is pretty vaguely worded and targets distributors, where the company appears to think free riders get their product from, rather than the "free riding" retailer. Quoting from the letter, "…should a distributor choose to sell any Privateer Press product to any party that Privateer has identified as a free rider, the ramifications of that decision will affect the future of our partnership with that distributor." That's a pretty general statement regarding the effects of selling to a free rider. Further in the letter, the ramifications are a little more clearly spelled out as distributors who sell products to retailers on Privateer's free rider list will have their shipments delayed. Not canceled or refused, just delayed. No indication as to how long the delay will last, although the confidential free rider list going to distributors today may have more information.

The question, of course, is what defines a free rider and even more importantly, how will Privateer Press define one? Online only stores are a pretty easy given to appear on the list, as by their nature it is impossible for them to grow the PP market through the sorts of in store initiatives noted by Privateer in the company's letter. Where it becomes dicey is determining what constitutes growing the community in the eyes of Privateer and how does Privateer plan to determine this? Wizards of the Coast, Asmodee NA, Mayfair Games, even Games Workshop all have fairly specific policies regarding online sales, discounting or both but community growth is not a factor in whether you can carry their games. If a store sets up a card table with four unpainted Privateer figures on it and calls it a "demo table," does that qualify as growing the community? Will a store with multiple tables dedicated to gaming and shelves of terrain be counted equal to one with one table and a Press Ganger in regular attendance? In research terms, the other companies are using quantities standards to measure performance, while Privateer wants to incorporate qualitative ones as well. 'Twill be interesting to see what happens after April 4th."

ROLLING FOR INITIATIVE--THE PRICE OF PRIVATEER PRESS (AND MERRIMAC CAVERNS)
http://icv2.com/articles/columns/view/34127/rolling-initiative-the-price-privateer-press-merrimac-caverns

I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.

Thimn wrote:
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.

Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?

The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.

One interesting point from the Reddit discussion was the topic of channel logistics. To slightly adjust the numbers from their example (and keep in mind this is entirely hypothetical and solely for discussion):

PP products are sold in 1000 B&M stores, each store orders an average of 5 of Widget X from their distributor. Further, 5 huge online sellers order 200 each of Widget X from the same distributor. Total channel sales for PP are at 6000 units with 83% of the units being in B&M stores. For the sake of discussion, let's say in the first month (i.e. - the time Widget X is most desirable) that B&M averages 2 sales of Widget X, and the other 3 sit on the shelf. Online sellers average 150 each, with 50 remaining. This would make total retail sales are 2,750 units. B&M has sold 40% of their stock, while online has sold 75%. Overall sales of Widget X in this hypothetical would stand at less than 50% of what was produced.

Even though percentage-wise those 5 hypothetical online sellers account for the largest chunk of sales on an individual basis far outstripping any other competitor, in aggregate they're the small fish in the pond from PP's perspective. Those B&M stores total up to 5 times the sales from PP's perspective, but those smaller fish can't move product and so are more inclined to not order Widget Y when it comes out. So their protectionism would seem to be less about "FLGS is great for the community and vital to the hobby!" and more of "Our bottom line is being impacted and to hell with matching market demands better!" This would also account for why they're not refusing to ship to those places who sell cheaply, only that they will ship slower; this would theoretically enable the B&M to get more of those first month sales out the door due to the "have it now!" factor, which in turn keeps the total of "little guys" ordering higher. Not sure that will work in practice, but at least there's something resembling logic there.

As I believe hotsauceman's "jerk" FLGS owner made a point in either a blog post or a discussion thread, the manufacturers are partially to blame for the pricing wars as well. When they grossly overproduce an item, the logical conclusion is that item will end up being sold cheaper because that's kind of how supply and demand functions; when supply > demand = price typically goes lower. When that cycle becomes the norm, then the MSRP becomes a joke and people just wait for the "slow" shipments to save the money, or for their FLGS to drop the prices just before those shipments hit. Of course, producing less also cuts into PP's bottom line, so again, "online sellers are the debil! rabblerabblerabble!" makes more sense for them.

Thimn wrote:
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

How do you know people are buying online as opposed to the store? Are you basing that assumption on local stores stopped carrying PP product and cutting back on stock and the game still being played, so that means the game is still popular which means additional sales should be happening?

Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff

Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?

Or they could just funnel the obscure rarely stocked sales to their own web portal where they'll charge full MSRP and cut out all the middle men in the purchase chain... you know... the real reason they're following in GW's footsteps.

Sining wrote:
Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff

How do we know they are buying online as opposed to buying from a secondary market? I mean we get new XWing players as well but most of them have been buying from other players who have stopped playing, left the hobby, switch factions or downsizing. I've seen just as many new players as well as the just as many drop the game for something else.

I'm not saying that is what is happening... but there is definitely a smoke and mirrors going on, making it seem like PP cares about the LGS when that isn't' entirely accurate.

 Sigvatr wrote:
. I don't think someone just walks by a LGS and goes inside (keep in mind that most GS don't have minis on display viewable from the outside), see a miniature game and thinks "Hey, I'm going to immediately buy a few miniatures!".

I did, years before I actually started playing. Going into Little Wars in Baton Rouge as a kid in the 1980's and wanting pretty much everything is what first got me into gaming.

That store is still around, too, though they've moved because a Walmart bought the retail area they used to be in.

 Dark Severance wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

How do you know people are buying online as opposed to the store? Are you basing that assumption on local stores stopped carrying PP product and cutting back on stock and the game still being played, so that means the game is still popular which means additional sales should be happening?

I know where people are buying from because I am part of the same groups of people. They post the deals they find online, and no tax and free shipping, and suddenly its harder to justify spending locally. I am also friends with local store owners and have had this discussion going on with them for the past year. The owners know people can get it online for cheaper, and even offering 25% off isn't enticing enough to have people shop locally at the same volume as years past.(It has been enough to get a few guys to order locally though).

Listen I know not everyone plays at a FLGS, but if the game publishers are losing customers (the stores refusing to carry PP stock because of online competition) it is not healthy for the game in the long run.

As much As I respect the push against online discounters, I don't see this going well for Privateer

I'm reminded of this actually
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/04/11/business/nintendo-to-pay-25-million-in-rebates-on-price-fixing.html

I know it has been 15 years, but this does sound like Nintendo's price fixing

While there are similarities, the big difference is that Nintendo was not only the market leader at that time but also a majority iirc with Sega and Atari a distant second and third. That is not the case with Pp.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Sining wrote:
Seems MM says they won't comply with PPs new edict at all. Should be interesting to see just how much their business increases

Meh. I don't doubt it but it'd be a sticky dilemma because they're also a B&M FLGS in addition to being a fairly large, online retailer. They also had no problem giving GW the finger and walking away when things got ridiculous with them so I imagine the same will apply to PP.

I wouldn't really call them a FLGS. They've got a small storefront tacked onto their warehouse in an out of the way light industrial park, no tables, and are open no later than six. They're an online retailer with what's essentially the bare minimum to have a brick and mortar to meet some manufacturers' terms.

They do have some tables in the back, actually, that they use for tournaments. They've got weekly Magic events and do other stuff like X-Wing and Dice Masters on roughly a every-other-month basis.

I do have to admit they're primarily online, though. Their retail section is basically just clearance shelves. Most purchases have to be pulled from the back warehouse.

 warboss wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:
Warmahordes is roughly 1000 different SKU's. That's an insane amount of product to stock! Wyrd moved away from all of their units being available singly to more boxed sets to make distribution/stocking easier. I'm wondering if PP should follow suit. Maybe they could offer some kind of B&M only bundles, like the "all in" boxes they previously had?

Or they could just funnel the obscure rarely stocked sales to their own web portal where they'll charge full MSRP and cut out all the middle men in the purchase chain... you know... the real reason they're following in GW's footsteps.

*BING! BING! BING!*
We have a winner!

The Auld Grump

 Yodhrin wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.

Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?

The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.

Yeah, damn them! They better get with the times so club-based gamers can buy cheap stuff online!

 privateer4hire wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Thimn wrote:
I get that people want to save money but I know way to many local game stores who have either stopped carrying PP product or greatly cut back on stock.

Its not a matter that the game isn't popular(can see it being played quite often), its a matter that people are buying online as opposed to in-store even with a 25% discount.

So yes I think its a very good thing PP is taking this action.

Why though? If some random FLGS in a city can't manage to compete with online sellers why should rural gamers halfway across the country, or folk from other parts of the world who don't use the FLGS model to support their communities, be forced to pay what amounts to a subsidy to keep that failing business afloat?

The world has moved on, American FLGS can either adapt, or die off - either way, it shouldn't affect the ability of consumers who don't use them to find the best deal they can.

Yeah, damn them! They better get with the times so club-based gamers can buy cheap stuff online!

I'm sure that if PP supporters want them to go down the GW route, then they'll be quite happy to support them doing just that.

 Dark Severance wrote:

Sining wrote:
Well, my local stores have stopped stocking PP stuff cause they can't sell it but we've seen more new players in the last year or so. I know they're buying online, we've been doing so since back when the shops stocked PP stuff

How do we know they are buying online as opposed to buying from a secondary market? I mean we get new XWing players as well but most of them have been buying from other players who have stopped playing, left the hobby, switch factions or downsizing. I've seen just as many new players as well as the just as many drop the game for something else.

I'm not saying that is what is happening... but there is definitely a smoke and mirrors going on, making it seem like PP cares about the LGS when that isn't' entirely accurate.

Cause I'm part of the same group and we do group buys to help with shipping?

Yeah, what PP is essentially saying is that their MSRP is based on the idea the the stores are providing services to the customer such as tournaments, playing space that you use regularly, community nights, workshops and demonstrations. If your store is providing you those things, awesome, they're earning their money and you should be happy all around. If they are not, then you're paying the "baked-in services" price and then not receiving those services which evidently accounts for 30%+ of the actual cost of the product (so, not an insubstantial amount). This is a bad deal, as you're not getting/using what you paid for.

The "discount" price is simply not charging the customer for services they weren't getting. That lower overhead is basically because the discounters aren't having to provide for what the manufacturers are suggesting the end-customer pay for, and in many cases couldn't use anyway. At that point, it would probably make much better economic sense to drop the "dealer-installed options" from the price and let the LGS find the appropriate way to monetize those services on their own. That would eliminate the vast gulf between B&M and retail in unit price, because the manufacturer is really only charging for the product again rather than how that product will be delivered. On paper though, that massively cuts into the FLGS's profit margin on product (because you know PP isn't going to drop wholesale price, just MSRP, which makes it a less attractive acquisition), and if the FLGS start charging for services that "used to be free" (even if they weren't really but just subsidized differently) then they're still in the same boat of closing up due to lack of funds when people just go "well I'll play at home then!"

Still, if your business model fails without the kindness of third parties who also compete with you at times, then you should really investigate better business models. I have a feeling the era of wargaming stuff being sold in a retail setting will gradually fade away outside of mass-market stuff like FFG and vertically integrated setups like GW; neither of which seems to be easily replicated by other manufacturers.