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WayneTheGame wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.

At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).

I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.

So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?

why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!

Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!

And then people want their lgs to carry infinity, see the prices on the Internet and buy online. Game stores then start contacting Infinity complaining how they can't compete with online stores. Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online, everybody gets their pitchforks out wanting to hang infinity.

 Chute82 wrote:
And then people want their lgs to carry infinity, see the prices on the Internet and buy online. Game stores then start contacting Infinity complaining how they can't compete with online stores. Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online, everybody gets their pitchforks out wanting to hang infinity.

Because the solution here is for a game shop to offer an incentive to buy beyond a place to play and what amounts to charity (e.g. they need money to stay open, so spend there), not for the manufacturer to say it's their responsibility to help B&M stores pay the bills by restricting online sales. As I've said before, I'd much prefer playing in a club than a game shop; there would (IMHO of course) be more exposure to other games. In fact, let's take Infinity as an example. No store around me stocks it. No store around me wants to stock it. The players around me may have heard of it, may not have, but would likely not play it because they can't buy it at the shop, going back to a sense of charity in helping the store to stay open so they have a place to go. If, instead, some 10-12 of us met biweekly at a rented location like a lodge hall, maybe there's a small group who play Infinity or are interested in playing Infinity, and I can see a game/buy a starter and start playing it. Instead, if I showed up to the store asking about Infinity, it's we don't stock it, we don't plan to stock it, and then it's basically no way to learn about it because nobody wants to play something that they can't buy local to "support the store". The problem is there's no clubs and people are so ingrained in the mentality of "let's go to the local game shop to buy/play" that it's a hard sell to say no, we don't need a store in this day and age, we have social media and spaces to rent, so we can play what we want when we want, without being beholden to the whims of a store owner who might, for example, tell us there's no room when there's a MtG pre-release or say we can't play X game because he can't stock it himself.

Just my viewpoint on it. I can appreciate what game stores do, but it's not my job to make sure that they can stay open, and often because their space is limited they can't cater to all the games out there, nor should they, but most stores I've seen also will actively discourage playing things they don't stock for exactly that reason; because one can buy online and just use the store's table space to play instead. Most stores don't offer a huge amount of table space because they also have a storefront, so preference for tables is always given to things the store sells. That IMHO is the issue and the disconnect. A club doesn't have that problem, because the place you are renting space from biweekly or once a month has zero interest in what you're doing and isn't going to, for example, say you can't play historical gaming there because you bought all your figures elsewhere using rules that have been OOP for 20 years, and the store can't profit off of it.

All this talk about how much better it is to have the models stocked.

While completely ignoring that no FLGS has the space or stock funding to carry the vast number of SKUs PP actually have.

In the UK, I only know of a few places that have the full range. All of them are hybrids with b&M stores backed by huge online sales - Wayland, Element, Dark Sphere, Troll Trader (although they are stocking less it seems).

The FLGS model is broken in the context of large games because they simply cannot stock it all. that makes this move by PP, as it was previously from GW, a move to channel sales into their own web store more than anything altruistic.

I don't think anyone is advocating having every item in stock.

We have every item in stock...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.

 RiTides wrote:
I don't understand the title update, did something change? It used to say "MM stands up to PP" and now it says "caved". If someone can link to it I'll update the OP.

OP here. I certainly haven't been changing the title. I should just change it to "Privateer Press Does Something: Just read the d*mn thread already."

Anyway, some posts from BGG:

Paul: "Ironically a B&M store that doesn't provide those services but charges the MSRP that is ostensibly set for the benefit of stores that do actually are "free riders."

Ghool: "All stores that run events, and market for PP still have to pay for ALL the materials to do-so. Event, league, and tournament kits still cost the store money, and only in some of them do you get an 11"x17" 'poster, which is all the marketing materials they provide. And they aren't cheap ($25 - 50 each). When I was a PG and ran events, I had to design and print my own posters because there were never any provided."

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1551890/privateer-press-going-ana-route-we-do-not-condone/page/9

As for MM, they should have just stayed quiet or announced the date of a price increase. That's what they did for FFG games, and nobody on BGG made a fuss about it.

 Azreal13 wrote:

Sure, PP do ok in the UK, but we have no data to show how much better they'd be doing if decreased price pressure from online stores allowed more independant stores to both open and continue to trade.

The thing is though that there never really was a 'golden age' of FLGS in the UK, or at least it was before my time. I started seriously wargaming in the late 90's, so pre internet shopping (to any meaningful degree), and while there were a few shops scattered around they were either bookshops/toyshops etc that had a small corner of GW models (there seemed to be a lot of these, at one point there were 3 in Inverness; a bookshop, a toyshop and a kiosk in the market), crusty little dives who seemed to specialise in cobwebs and dust or GWs. I very much doubt that deceased price pressure from online shops would make the slightest bit of difference today (aside from allowing already failing shops to keep the wolf from the door for a bit longer).

 Chute82 wrote:
Infinity releases a statement how their products can't be sold online,

Or Corvus Belli just goes "meh" and carries on as normal.

I think the premise is good. Not sure about implementation but model companies are limited in setting prices.

Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.

In other words sell your product to minature market at most 30% discount and if you buy a $30/50 organized play kit and hold events you can get the products for 50% off. Minature market can keep selling stuff for 25% off they however Won't make anything. If however an online retailer has a store front with organized play they will get around this problem. At that point all you can do is limit stock to the vendors. Creating a supply and demand scenario. They can continue selling product for 25%+ off however they will always be out of stock and unable to fill all thier orders. You

 Silent Puffin? wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

Sure, PP do ok in the UK, but we have no data to show how much better they'd be doing if decreased price pressure from online stores allowed more independant stores to both open and continue to trade.

The thing is though that there never really was a 'golden age' of FLGS in the UK, or at least it was before my time. I started seriously wargaming in the late 90's, so pre internet shopping (to any meaningful degree), and while there were a few shops scattered around they were either bookshops/toyshops etc that had a small corner of GW models (there seemed to be a lot of these, at one point there were 3 in Inverness; a bookshop, a toyshop and a kiosk in the market), crusty little dives who seemed to specialise in cobwebs and dust or GWs. I very much doubt that deceased price pressure from online shops would make the slightest bit of difference today (aside from allowing already failing shops to keep the wolf from the door for a bit longer).

We'll never know because GW strangled that particular infant at birth.

I was lucky to have a great LGS back in the early 90s, before that, teenage me had to catch a 3 hour bus to cover a 45 minute drive to the nearest town that had any war gaming shops (a GW when GW's were good, got a whole epic Tyranid army on 3 for 2) and other games weren't really a consideration unless you played RPGs or Historicals.

The growth in the popularly in the hobby has, not unsurprisingly, coincided with the growth of GW, and now the non-GW side of the hobby is arguably doing better than the GW side, Internet competition is putting pressure on small companies being able to make a go of things.

If that issue can be solved, either by entrepreneurial individuals or the gaming companies themselves, it may be we haven't yet seen the golden age of FLGS in the UK. Retail doesn't look the same as it did 20 years ago, physical services are the way forward because they can't be replaced by online sales, but a store that can offer a pleasant space to play, food and drink, competitive prices (without cutting their own throat but sufficient to make online sales less appealing) and a focal point for a gaming community has a future, IMO. If the people who make the games are prepared to try and help, that's no bad thing, I just don't think what PP and FFG are doing is the way.

 AduroT wrote:
We have every item in stock...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.

Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.

But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.

gungo wrote:
Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.

Your store doesn't need to hold campaigns and organized play to get the best discount from GW and above. As long as you satisfy a certain amount of criteria you qualify, but to do so you don't even need a single gaming table.

EDIT- I just missed that you were American and not British, maybe conditions are different on your side of the ocean.

 malfred wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
We have every item in stock...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I love the constant accusations that this move was to channel sales into PP's own web store, given that their web store doesn't actually sell the standard model skus, only a few exclusives and accessories.

Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.

But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.

It just shows how shortsighted this is, unless of course they are in possession of hard data that shows otherwise; how do they know that most or all of their customers are playing in LGSs? The simple fact that people are buying from online discounters does not automatically mean the majority or all of the people who are buying online are playing in stores rather than in clubs or just collecting.

This is why companies should stay out of the morality business. Whether intentional or not, PP has chosen to support stores over paying customers.

Well lucky me! Now with all this increased care from PP my LGS can go on not supporting any game they carry!

At least Miniature Market will have stuff in stock. My 20-mile-away store can go for a month at a time before restocking sold-out GW and PP product.

Thimn wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Thimn wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Thimn wrote:
if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do

What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?

No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.

You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).

Oh come on, are we really going to argue that a product sells better in a store when it is actually available to buy? Why wouldn't Warmachine exist in Europe? You are making alot of wierd claims. My statement is, a product sells better in stores, when it is actually stocked.

No, your statement was that a product is more successful in physical stores than elsewhere, and that's a crock.

My point was that evidently a physical store is not necessary for a game to gain traction, since games are capable of gaining traction in areas with no or very few physical stores - online retail and word of mouth are sufficient to make a game reasonably popular, even in a country which is a stronghold of a rival game company and which features said rival's physical stores in nearly every town. If you want to claim that a physical store is better than the alternatives, you have to evidence your claim, or it's just hot air.

Where did I say the product was more successful in a physical store? I never said that. Thats why your statements are a bit off.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.

At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).

I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.

So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?

why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!

Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!

I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.

Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.

 Wulfson_40K wrote:

gungo wrote:
Honestly I think GW has the best idea how to handle this by setting a higher discount on orders for stores who holds campaigns and organized play.

Your store doesn't need to hold campaigns and organized play to get the best discount from GW and above. As long as you satisfy a certain amount of criteria you qualify, but to do so you don't even need a single gaming table.

EDIT- I just missed that you were American and not British, maybe conditions are different on your side of the ocean.

I'm talking about the GW tank shock campaign.
It's a better idea then banning retailers, delaying shipments, banning online advertising or any of the current trends.

GW just made a system that promotes flgs sales by giving flgs a deeper discount (+20%) on merchandise if you hold thier organized play event and purchase thier $30 campaign kit.

Instead of banning retailers force thrm to hold organized play events instead of just being an online retailer by giving those stores 50% markdown instead of the 30% markdown. And if a store continues to game the system and provide nominal play bit deep 25%+ discounts limit thier shipments to s reasonable amount so they can't wholesale. This prevents the same thing without banning retailers.

It kind of doesn't make sense that MM would suddenly reverse tack. They show over 1000 PP items In Stock right now. Sure, some is paint and other low value items, but all in all they have a lot of money already tied up in old stock that will probably not move. I'm curious if they're playing the long game and expecting if prices are higher everywhere, then sales as a whole will go down causing PP to reverse policy.

 malfred wrote:

Manchu theorized earlier that that may be the direction this is leading. It's just a theory, just one I hadn't considered before.

But right. PP doesn't sell anything of their own except at conventions, which is just good marketing sense I think.

And (at least in the past when I cared), the stores that PP loves so much couldn't reorder most of the product for months before and after the summer con season because PP was devoting their production to themselves to sell at full MSRP at gencon. It is absolutely a theory that this is a prelude to them selling direct in the future ala the GW roadmap but it is also a fact that PP will throw all FLGS (whether they're "parasites" or not) under the bus when it suits them financially.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
I will be honest this almost makes me want to play Warhammer again because at least with GW it's the devil I know and I know they are trying to cheat me. I really think that this is going to backfire on PP with the bad publicity.

At least this was a good vector check to see you, I, or anyone else wasn't just a new blind fan of something. It definitely sours my taste on the company, the game is still good. I will likely move away from larger games after Warmachine unless there's one that create large scale at lower cost (historicals?).

I like the game still, but at this rate may as well go back to the Evil Empire and get better quality figures and less stressful (not right word) gameplay. A 30% discount was a big reason I've bought so much PP stuff. At least I have a store relatively nearby that offers 20% so 13% including sales tax. Just PP doing it at all sours me on them since it's a very GW like move.

So... they do a GW-esque donkey-cave thing and it makes yo ugo back to the original donkey-cave?

why not play Infinity? Where $100 buys you all you need to play, with free downloadable rules (that are MUCH better!), monthly updates for multiple factions, AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!

Seriously, don't go back to an abuser, get yourself a nice guy...er.....gaming company!

I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.

Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.

Tokens and such can easily be made...for free. I regularly place circles of paper with what the state or deployable equipment is. Plus CB even prints four counters into the tabs of every.....single...box. They have terrain that fits over those boxes as well that MM sells for 8$ for half to a third of a tables worth. So for the price of one GW building your table is set.

As far as the games go, yes there are blowouts (I had one tonight in fact) but a lot of the play is in how well you've learned to play. There's immensely more tactical depth to it and takes a very long time to learn how to do it well. I've been doing it for two years and still learning. Maybe playing a game the challenges you for such a length of time just isn't for everyone, but if you want to save money and play, you most certainly can do that compared to GW. Never played PP stuff si I wouldn't know how their prices are.

 Red Corsair wrote:

I hate it when people flat out mislead about infinity, with all the fething tokens, silhouettes and ludicrous amounts of terrain infinity is not inexpensive to get into. Especially when that $100 only gets you 8-12 models depending on size. Then after countless hours of investment your playing a game that generally ends in one side blowing out the other, I rarely see close games of infinity by casual gamers.

Not knocking the game or line of models, but as someone that has invested in infinity myself, I hate when I see this thrown around because it is misleading. Infinity is also a game with incredible rules bloat.

Because it is inexpensive? You can download the tokens and silhouettes off the Infinity webpage or get them in either Icestorm or the Ariadna starter. They sell their card building sets for $10 each. It is far easier to get into then most other miniature games. The only one that beats it is X-wing. But with both, you can easily spend more.

*edit* StD beat me to it

Triple9 wrote:
It kind of doesn't make sense that MM would suddenly reverse tack. They show over 1000 PP items In Stock right now. Sure, some is paint and other low value items, but all in all they have a lot of money already tied up in old stock that will probably not move. I'm curious if they're playing the long game and expecting if prices are higher everywhere, then sales as a whole will go down causing PP to reverse policy.

My guess would be that the fully intended to defy PP and live with the delay in getting new stock in,

but remember their distributor would also get hit by that delay (and so would everybody else they supplied who would no doubt complain bitterly or move to a different distributor), I suspect that after crunching the numbers their sales to MM were not enough to offset the potential losses from other clients and they told MM that if they didn't play ball they'd drop them

so in the short term MM has to raise their prices to please PP, however if they can find an alternate distributor where MM sales volume might be equal to or greater than the other stores they may give it another go, but sorting out a new distributor who'll play ball (and waiting out any contractual obligations to their current one) will take time

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
why not play Infinity?

Why not play Malifaux which has PLASTIC figures?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
AND free army-builder (updated whenever there are changes)!

This is one thing I really dislike about Privateer Press - charging for army lists that go with their app. Nickle and dimeing customers is such a... GW way of doing things.

Thimn wrote:
Oh come on, are we really going to argue that a product sells better in a store when it is actually available to buy? Why wouldn't Warmachine exist in Europe? You are making alot of wierd claims. My statement is, a product sells better in stores, when it is actually stocked.

I can be pretty old school but many of these products are well known: you do not need to go see it in person.
Most of the times they are in an opaque box anyway.
X-wing I do enjoy getting in person where the packaging is clear and I can avoid bent / damaged models, this has some reason for personal review.
Sometimes I order from my FLGS so they specifically know I am supporting them because I can darn well get it cheaper ordering somewhere else.
Oddly, they sell it cheaper to me as a specific order than an off the shelf item.

Added edit: I should concede that "impulse buys" do exist, and would be a large factor in FLGS sales.
As I get older I become increasingly patient AND cheap.

<edit note> Had to edit for really bad quote trimming...

Slight digression but how do other non gaming companies (say sports equipment, apparel, etc.) deal with the same problem?

I'm assuming that's why (US) places like Best Buy, Sears, etc. are all going out of business. Cause they can't compete with the discount provided by online?

 Yodhrin wrote:

Thimn wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

Thimn wrote:
if you really cared for the health of the game you just need to acknowledge what PP is trying to do

What exactly is "health of the game" here? Does WMH need to be played in the LGS to be "healthy"?

No the game doesn't need to be played at a LGS, but it's better for the game if stores actually carry the product.

You keep asserting this, but I've yet to see a single solitary shred of evidence to support the claim. Indeed, I'd like you to explain something for me; how does WarmaHordes even exist in the UK & Europe? Most gaming here is done in clubs and independent retailers are much rarer than in America, but PP products somehow managed to penetrate this market and have been steadily growing ever since - by your thesis that shouldn't work, they should be struggling constantly even to be noticed. As should every other game maker except GW which has comparatively massive "reach" of the kind you claim is better than anything else for spreading a game thanks to their chain of stores, but again the reality is GW stagnating and various alternative games and model makers in the ascendant(we'll see if GW's recent moves turn that around).

The problem here is that you are looking at it only from the UK, which is natural. But the U.S. is VAST. Most of the UK you could fit in just California. Also, there are parts of the U.S. that are very expensive to live in. Space is at a premium. Most people don't want a gaming table taking up that space. There really isn't a culture here for gaming clubs. If you try to play at our libraries, you will constantly be told to keep it down and you won't feel welcome. Same for churches that don't really care for you bringing an army of Demons (GW) to their church. Community centers are available, if you want to compete with all of the other people for space. No, here in the U.S. most people play in brick and mortar. I'm not saying that there aren't people running clubs out of their homes, only that they are not what sustains the gaming culture here. Back in the 80's people tried to open gaming clubs and pass themselves off as retail shops. Not to actually sell retail, just to allow their members to buy at wholesale. The distributors and manufacturers got wise to this and started requiring photos of your brick and mortar. Many people complained just like now that the gaming industry was cutting it's wrists by doing that, but it made the community stronger and the companies did just fine. Now we have a similar situation where you have a quasi middle-man (online) willing to live on a 5% margin and a customer base that expects deep discounts. Now the company feels that it's products are worth a certain amount of money and deep discounting devalues that product. So the industry as a whole is taking steps to curb it. What we are essentially arguing here are three things. Some people on this forum feel that manufacturer prices are too high. Others feel that businesses should not be able to decide at what price their product will sell. And a third faction believe that game stores are dead and provide no value. I disagree on every one of those positions. One thing is certain, the Game Manufacturing Community seems to have evaluated what is going on and come to a decision that deep discounting is bad for business and brick and mortar stores (at least in the U.S.) are necessary. It's not just a few companies, it's all of the companies that make the hottest games (40K, Warmachine, X-wing, Heroclix). I'll take a stab at answering your other question about Warmahordes existing in the U.K. Now this is only from what I have observed, and maybe I am wrong, but I have been told by people living in the U.K. that GW permeates everywhere, and it starts in school clubs. Because you have a lot of 40k school gaming clubs, people are used to having their own clubs. Now since GW controls so much of the market, the only way people could get Warmahordes was online, and since they already had gaming clubs, voila, a culture of gaming clubs and online buying. Contrast that in the U.S. Many schools have gaming clubs, but gaming is not supported as it is in the U.K. IN Britain, you are surrounded by a thousand year history, in the U.S. there is no sense of that. Kids that like Chivalry and Dragons are called nerds/geeks and disrespected. Schools will not partner with manufacturers or brick and mortars to promote gaming because they don't want people selling things to the students in school. That is why gamer culture in the U.S. is centered on brick and mortar. The U.S. has a lot of hang-ups and old fashioned ideas that I am sure frustrate many Europeans (and Americans).

Only buy pp stuff online with 30%+ off as they offer no real value for money and lgs dropped them. Don't play pp in a game store, wont subsidize those who do. Just wont buy pp stuff. There are plenty other games out there. PP are just shooting themselves in the foot. No great loss

Worth mentioning that both PP and MM have easy-to-find Contact info. Besides posting in a forum, let them know your thoughts. I did, and I was surprised at how quickly PP responded to my comments.

Smellingsalts wrote:
The problem here is that you are looking at it only from the UK, which is natural.

I think people make a mistake in generalising countries in general.

I've recently heard a few people saying the US is more brick and mortar based.... but it wasn't that long ago I remember people making the exact opposite argument, that play in homes among small clubs or groups of friends was the biggest thing in the US and how over much of the USA houses are larger and larger buildings to rent out cheaply for a night are easier to find.

Having travelled a decent slab of the USA, what applies in one town may not apply in the next, let alone from one state to the next.

I think at the end of the day, almost all countries have some reliance on brick and mortar stores, almost all countries will have some people playing at home, almost all countries will have some people who play with clubs, almost all countries will have some people who hire out venues to play. Trying to figure out the balance between them is just a wild guess based on limited anecdotal experience.

If I look at my own city in Australia, I think we have almost everything here. I personally rely on gaming at stores more than anything, but I know there's several large clubs, I know there's a lot of people playing at home, I know there's people who hire out spaces to play, I even know there's people playing games I've never seen before. Trying to take a stab at the ratios, even though I'm ONLY talking about one city (the city I've lived in most my life and gamed in for around 20 years) it's still just a wild guess.