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The one that's irrelevant in a month?


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 MattofWar wrote:
From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."

Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.

Thus why the argument that Privateer's doing this to get more money out of folks falls flat. Without an online store of their own, Privateer loses money on the face of it. Like Asmodee, Hawk, and Battlefront, they're gambling that funneling more business to local game stores will generate enough additional business to compensate.

 Laughing Man wrote:
Thus why the argument that Privateer's doing this to get more money out of folks falls flat. Without an online store of their own, Privateer loses money on the face of it. Like Asmodee, Hawk, and Battlefront, they're gambling that funneling more business to local game stores will generate enough additional business to compensate.

Nah, they're following GW's footsteps in realizing that the FLGS is a dying business model and they want to funnel sales to Direct. I would not be surprised if they started making more SKUs direct-only as well.

 judgedoug wrote:
I would not be surprised if they started making more SKUs direct-only as well.

Agreed wholeheartedly. It's obviously not going to happen overnight but just ask yourself, is the future of retail more about online or offline sales?

Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.

http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

 DrNo172000 wrote:
Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.

http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

It could also be that GW has been very insular for some time and has not been running an advertising campaign (or at least in the way that is successful). Other thing that does turn people away is the asking price to get into the game. I say do another essay that focus on another company or so, to get a comparison to the Warmachine/Hordes player and compare the two. Keep the same or similar wording but change the topic to PP products instead.

 DrNo172000 wrote:
Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.

http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

That's a strange poll. The formatting and the totals running past 100% makes it feel like something is missing or data is being compared across subsets or something. Like the 60% playing at home 41% non-GW stores.. The 41 seems like it is from the remainder of non-home gamers. It's hard to say for sure though.
The rest is all common sense. People with a stable income and interest in the game are a steady source of revenue. Youngsters who don't have steady income and split what they do get between video games and other things seem like a more periodic purchase. Is Privateer Press targetting younger players the way GW seems to be or was that just anecdotal?

My sense is that the majority of miniature game purchases are by people who do not play at stores. I think that poll is likely pretty accurate and the numbers would have been the same even when GW was doing marking with Di Agostini for LOTR. The majority of the customers of any miniature game might buy at a local store or online, but they tend not to come to any gaming event at those stores with any regularity (if at all). Even during the LOTR boom, a GW store might have 20-30 people all playing bring-and-battle multiplayer games all Saturday, but I bet 100 people bought and didn't come to those events (if not more).

It's not hard data, but pretty much every store manager or owner I've talked to has their regular customers who show up to every gaming event contributing the minority of the purchases. This was the case to such a degree in the US that for a while GW was advising store owners and their employees to encourage those regulars to not show up as much. First they shunted them into "Veteran's night" and then cancelled the Veteran's night.

If the only drawback is not getting stuff the minute it's out (o noes!) then I'll order from MM for most of my stuff, because I almost never buy things the minute they are our or for pre-release, and if I do they are usually single purchases that I'll buy local for the "I want it now" factor anyways.

 MattofWar wrote:
From the cash flow end, what does PP delaying shipments do for them? It lengthens the time between when the order is placed and when PP gets paid for it. A big distributor places an order. PP delays shipping two weeks. The big distributor will pay 30 days after they recieve it. If PP says "you need to pay your invoice faster" they'll just say "Ship faster. Our accounts payable policy is based on X days after receiving the goods."

Some businesses try to make the customer (even if its a reseller) pay up front, but when you start talking $10k+ orders between a manufacturer and distributor, usually it goes with the normal business to business accounts payable policies of purchase orders, invoicing and receiving and then payment. So PP delaying shipments to distributors just lengthens the time between the placing of orders and the payment for those goods.

All of that is true. At the same time, as long as your liquidity is fine you might not give a rodent's hindquarters for a couple weeks delay. Markets being as they are that money will just be sitting in an interest-free account for a few weeks more out less. It's customary to care a great deal but right now, it often doesn't make much sense to do so

WayneTheGame wrote:
If the only drawback is not getting stuff the minute it's out (o noes!) then I'll order from MM for most of my stuff, because I almost never buy things the minute they are our or for pre-release, and if I do they are usually single purchases that I'll buy local for the "I want it now" factor anyways.

The only time this might have a negative effect is if for some reason something is insanely popular and sells out pretty fast. There might not be enough stock to supply the later orders until waaay later. It's a crappy scenario and probably unlikely with miniatures but I've seen it with comic books enough times. Sometimes it's Diamond sometimes it's the publisher.

I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

 RiTides wrote:
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.

 RiTides wrote:
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

How much of GW's range was direct-only when they first started screwing with their trade terms to the detriment of indies?

 MLaw wrote:

 DrNo172000 wrote:
Interestingly enough this poll for 40k has 60% of people polled claiming to play at home and only 41% playing in non-GW stores. Don't know if that's indicative of the market as a whole or that this poll was badly done or if it's just 40k that is that way but it's still interesting. Something tells me though that it probably is indicative of the market as a whole. Also note half of all players learned about the game from a friend, I'd bet that increases based on the obscurity of the game.

http://www.totellstories.com/40k/

That's a strange poll. The formatting and the totals running past 100% makes it feel like something is missing or data is being compared across subsets or something. Like the 60% playing at home 41% non-GW stores.. The 41 seems like it is from the remainder of non-home gamers. It's hard to say for sure though.

The total is more than 100% because some people play at home AND play at a hobby shop.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.

That is an assertion from commenters, not a statment from PP. Their policy with their webstore is to sell a minimum on their own store (mostly board games, bits, starters, and OOP metal models) and sell the bulk of their products to distributors. They don't even like selling directly to stores if they can help it, they want everything through distributors.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

I believe the idea is that they will eventually move to selling directly.

Which is silly, as they've been doing the OPPOSITE of that recently, moving more and more of their online exclusives to retailers. Pretty much the only thing left exclusive to their store are parts and the occasional convention model.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I don't follow the "they're doing this to drive sales to direct" comments. Privateer Press doesn't sell models directly for the most part, only through distributors. Am I missing something? Genuine question...

How much of GW's range was direct-only when they first started screwing with their trade terms to the detriment of indies?

Yes, but PP doesn't even sell the vast majority of their range in their online store. I.e. it's not just that they're not direct-only... they're not offered direct at all!

As others have said, signs from PP (and others like Guildball and Hawk Wargames with their new retail exclusives) make it seem like they're trending the opposite way, at least from what I can see. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some other development!

It's Conspiracy 101. You don't change the theory to match the facts, you change the facts to fit the theory.

PP has a second online store on the grassy knoll.

I really think this is a matter of them having sales that have stopped growing and are directly hearing from retailers and distributors that they aren't moving product except to online stores. And PP being a very conservative company assumes that it must be because the discount makes an unfair environment for the brick and mortar only stores and ignores the general trends in purchasing online over the last decade in pretty much any industry.

So they try to bully both distributors and retailers to push back the clock.

My personal opinion is that growth stopped because the game largely failed to deliver on its central premise of steam powered robots fighting it out. People in these retail stores gave the game a try but lost interest when all their introductory products (jacks, medium base infantry) suck compared to a good contingent of small based infantry and solos. I know so many people who have a collection of jacks on their shelves at home but no longer play (or buy).

Maybe MK3 will turn this around. Then if the cash starts rolling in again, PP will quietly forget this project of trying to bully distributors and retailers. The problem is though, that distributors can be gate keepers and if PP intentionally delays shipments to large distributors, the distributors will find something else to encourage their customers (the stores) to buy. And the stores can do the same with the end customer. So it's possible that the timing of this might actually impact the launch of MK3 negatively. After all, if Miniature Market reduced their discount as they were asked and Privateer still kept them on "the list" and then delays shipments to major distributors like Alliance, then all sorts of brick and mortar only retailers are going to be punished by having their shipments also delayed. So maybe the Warmachine section of the shelves should be shrunk a bit and more board games brought in. PP products can go special order only.

Just a few bits. And of course please take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't claim to have information right in front of me. But i do talk to 6 major distributors in the US.

-PP does not sell to stores directly in the US. Depending on the country, they may ship directly to stores. I think some canadian stores get direct orders from them. But in general they sell through distributors.

-PP gets a lot of feedback from their Pressgangers. Pressgangers are mainly running events and demo games in stores. So I'd say PP has a pretty good idea of just how much having stores carry their product is beneficial to them, and how much stores are being affected by heavy discounting.

-There will be a lot more conversation passing back and forth between PP and distributors over the next few weeks. This will change their buying agreements with PP. Selling to stores on the freeriders list will have some pretty severe consequences for that distributor.

-No distributor can handle those consequences. If they start shipping late, or not getting some product at all, all their other accounts will put a huge amount of pressure on them. Stores won't just shift their PP orders to another distributor, many would shift the bulk of their sales. The bad feelings associated with giving bad service to other retailers because a distributor sold to stores on a ban list would be huge. And very unprofitable.

-(a guess) Several manufacturers have tightened up which distributors they deal with. Less distributors makes it much easier to police a policy like this. Some distributors are already known in the industry to be a bit shady in how they do business. It would not surprise me to see PP cut down the list of distributors they do business with.

-The launch kits for MK3 are in very tight supply, and distributors are getting allocated. I'm not sure how this will affect availability of individual starter kits to stores. We'll know more closer to launch date. They are damn good kits, i ordered the largest as soon as i got the email and made sure it was confirmed with my distributor. The quality of the kits made demand exceed supply.


We'll see how it shakes out, but their is a lot more going on behind the scenes right now, and I think PP are very serious about this new policy.

In the end, no matter how things play out, all of us will make our own decisions on how we look at the game/company and act accordingly.

For me (not that it really matters to anyone else, or PP for that matter...and that's okay) I don't like their miniatures enough to pay full retail, and in most cases not even at 10% discount. I've been eyeing the game for a couple of years now, even bought both Mk2 rulebooks a year and half ago off eBay for a good price (I think it was $25 for both). Nearly bought an "all-in-one" army box last year, as they were good deals, but didn't pull the trigger as my hobby backlog had grown so much already. My interest is keen now that there's a new edition on the horizon, as that tends to be a good time to start a game. Recently I bought the Hordes 2-player starter off eBay for $50.00, new in box, as I generally like Legion and Circle models and figured they would be good starting points. As of now I plan on buying one or more of the new starter boxes when they come out. Even at retail, these are a decent deal. But as for most other releases/kits? Not a chance I buy them for retail, no matter how much I love my FLGS. If no one online sells for a sufficient enough discount, then I will surf eBay until I find what I want or give up and move to something else.

The thing is, if this new policy is in response to feedback from people running events at retail stores, of course those people don't like online retailers: they're the competition.

I'm still unconvinced that this policy is going to accomplish anything except create frustration. The board game / tabletop gaming industry as a whole has been experiencing massive growth in recent years despite the supposed community-destroying threat of online stores.Sure. the market is different than how it used to be, but online retail is a force way bigger than this industry and its laughable to think that you can go back to how it was before online sales existed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh wow, this story is getting pretty silly: they're back to 10%!

The back and forth.

I can only imagine a lot of heated arguments have been going on between PP, MM, and the distributors involved. Oh well. Back to eBay and Amazon for me!

Huh... Title updated. I assume there was no news release, just people noticing the discount changed back?

Not that I know of. I just was thinking about ordering some Croak Raiders and noticed it had changed. It's too bad. I like Miniature Market, but with tax those Croak Raiders now cost about $20 more from them they do they on Amazon. That's simply too big a price gap to ignore.

I almost ordered something yesterday during their May 4th sale too :/ - Getting slowed.

With all the yoyoing, does anyone really think Privateer's going to take them off the list?

Do you think they'd be dropping the discount for any reason other than PP agreeing to take them off the list if they did it?