Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Played a game against the waagh council and ork decursion today. The guy had 3 naked nobz with the bosspole. He stuck the nobs out to absorb the fire. Anyway later on he had meganobz get out of a trukk whom the council then joined up with. I dont think it is meant to work that way, but he says since everyone left in it is an independent character they can all join another squad. Those meganobz obviously benefitted from running with ghaz. But grotsnik's rule says that he cannot leave a unit he is joined with for any reason. Dont the independent characters basically become independent characters again before joining another squad, meaning he could not leave to allow this?

It just feels like a loophole and I am missing something.

The Council of Waaagh! has a special rule disallowing Independent Characters from choosing to leave or join the unit. Even if the the Nobz have died and only Independent Characters remain, they still remain the one unit and are disallowed from leaving.

The guy argued they are not LEAVING, just joining with a squad. That's what it felt like to me though. Do independent characters have to break up if they join a unit if they were in a group with only independent characters though?

 Orock wrote:
The guy argued they are not LEAVING, just joining with a squad. That's what it felt like to me though. Do independent characters have to break up if they join a unit if they were in a group with only independent characters though?

An IC cannot be part of two different units at the same time. If there is any indication where they might be in coherency with more than one unit, the owning player must declare which unit they are part of.

In other words, in order to join another unit, they must leave the first.

Thanks, makes more sense than 4 independent characters suddenly merging with another squad.

The rule for the Council is "all models in this formation must be deployed as a single unit. Models with the Independant Character special rule cannot choose to leave or join the unit" and Mad Doc Grotsnik's rule is "...Once Mad Doc Grotsnik has joined a unit, he may not leave it unless he is the last remaining member of that unit".

All the Nobz die and, involuntarily, the Independant Characters stop being part of the Nobz unit and become their own unit. In their next movement phase they end their move within 2" of another unit and thus join it (BRB page 166). The ICs have not chosen to leave the initial Nobz unit, nor have any other ICs chosen to join it so the Boss Mob rule hasn't been broken. I think that the rules support the way your opponent played it, though perhaps RAI could be different.

xlDuke wrote:
All the Nobz die and, involuntarily, the Independant Characters stop being part of the Nobz unit and become their own unit.

Counter-point:

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The rule doesn't cause IC's to stop being part of a unit as long as another member of the unit is alive. Remember that IC's are treated as members of the unit for all purposes, so if the Nobz are all dead, but at least two IC's survived, there is still a "Nobz" unit.

 Quanar wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
All the Nobz die and, involuntarily, the Independant Characters stop being part of the Nobz unit and become their own unit.

Counter-point:

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The rule doesn't cause IC's to stop being part of a unit as long as another member of the unit is alive. Remember that IC's are treated as members of the unit for all purposes, so if the Nobz are all dead, but at least two IC's survived, there is still a "Nobz" unit.

The Nobz unit has ceased to exist once they are all dead and the IC's, assuming they are all in coherency, become a unit consisting of Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Warboss, Warboss, Big Mek. I think that's correct but I'm not certain. If they are not in coherency they become single model units comprised only of themselves, except for Grotsnik who probably has to try to maintain coherency to satisfy his rule. Per the Boss Mob rule, no IC has chosen to leave the initial unit and none have chosen to join so surely they can join a new unit this way? At what point do you think they "choose to leave the unit" and break the Boss Mob rule?

xlDuke wrote:

 Quanar wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
All the Nobz die and, involuntarily, the Independant Characters stop being part of the Nobz unit and become their own unit.

Counter-point:

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

The rule doesn't cause IC's to stop being part of a unit as long as another member of the unit is alive. Remember that IC's are treated as members of the unit for all purposes, so if the Nobz are all dead, but at least two IC's survived, there is still a "Nobz" unit.

The Nobz unit has ceased to exist once they are all dead and the IC's, assuming they are all in coherency, become a unit consisting of Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Warboss, Warboss, Big Mek. I think that's correct but I'm not certain. If they are not in coherency they become single model units comprised only of themselves, except for Grotsnik who probably has to try to maintain coherency to satisfy his rule. Per the Boss Mob rule, no IC has chosen to leave the initial unit and none have chosen to join so surely they can join a new unit this way? At what point do you think they "choose to leave the unit" and break the Boss Mob rule?

The Nobz unit has not ceased to exist. I can see it, right there, with my own eyes, even though the models are independent characters, the unit, objectively, still exists.

The Nobz unit has not ceased to exist. I can see it, right there, with my own eyes, even though the models are independent characters, the unit, objectively, still exists.

I may have been mistaken there, I find it quite confusing to work out what happens when a unit that contains two or more ICs is destroyed except for the ICs. Those two ICs are still considered as the original unit then?

Even so, in the case of the Council, the ICs have not chosen ("choose" being an important word in the Boss Mob rule) to leave the unit and are not explicitly restricted to join another so I don't think it breaks the Boss Mob rule for them to join up with the Mega Nobz.

xlDuke wrote:
The Nobz unit has ceased to exist once they are all dead and the IC's, assuming they are all in coherency, become a unit consisting of Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Warboss, Warboss, Big Mek. I think that's correct but I'm not certain. If they are not in coherency they become single model units comprised only of themselves, except for Grotsnik who probably has to try to maintain coherency to satisfy his rule. Per the Boss Mob rule, no IC has chosen to leave the initial unit and none have chosen to join so surely they can join a new unit this way? At what point do you think they "choose to leave the unit" and break the Boss Mob rule?

So long as two or more members of the unit survive the Phase, it is still considered that unit. The models will always be who they are when deployment starts, but the rules regarding the ICs reverting to their own units involve all the other models of the unit being removed from play. Two ICs in the unit still around after all the original members are dead would still have "other models" around to give some identity to the unit, at least for that Phase, and probably the end of the turn.

It's weird, but the IC's do not have permission to be back to their own unless they are out of coherency at the end of the Movement Phase, or all alone in the unit at the end of any Phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xlDuke wrote:

The Nobz unit has not ceased to exist. I can see it, right there, with my own eyes, even though the models are independent characters, the unit, objectively, still exists.

I may have been mistaken there, I find it quite confusing to work out what happens when a unit that contains two or more ICs is destroyed except for the ICs. Those two ICs are still considered as the original unit then?

Yes. At least we do not have any rules to tell us otherwise, and there is the IC rule:

If an Independent Character joins a unit, and all other models in that unit are killed, he again becomes a unit of one model at the start of the following phase.

xlDuke wrote:
Even so, in the case of the Council, the ICs have not chosen ("choose" being an important word in the Boss Mob rule) to leave the unit and are not explicitly restricted to join another so I don't think it breaks the Boss Mob rule for them to join up with the Mega Nobz.

The choice is made at the end of the Movement Phase:

If the Independent Character is within 2" of more than one unit at the end of its Movement phase, the player must declare which unit it is joining.

 Charistoph wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
The Nobz unit has ceased to exist once they are all dead and the IC's, assuming they are all in coherency, become a unit consisting of Ghazghkull Thraka, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Warboss, Warboss, Big Mek. I think that's correct but I'm not certain. If they are not in coherency they become single model units comprised only of themselves, except for Grotsnik who probably has to try to maintain coherency to satisfy his rule. Per the Boss Mob rule, no IC has chosen to leave the initial unit and none have chosen to join so surely they can join a new unit this way? At what point do you think they "choose to leave the unit" and break the Boss Mob rule?

So long as two or more members of the unit survive the Phase, it is still considered that unit. The models will always be who they are when deployment starts, but the rules regarding the ICs reverting to their own units involve all the other models of the unit being removed from play. Two ICs in the unit still around after all the original members are dead would still have "other models" around to give some identity to the unit, at least for that Phase, and probably the end of the turn.

It's weird, but the IC's do not have permission to be back to their own unless they are out of coherency at the end of the Movement Phase, or all alone in the unit at the end of any Phase.

Thanks, this makes that paragraph from the BRB clearer to me.

So Ghaz, Grotsnik, the Big Mek and the Warbosses still count as the original unit when the Nobz die. Does them joining another unit also mean they are opting to leave their old unit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An addition to confuse myself further: if all the Nobz are killed and it leaves all of the ICs out of coherency with each other, presumably the original unit is destroyed, can the ICs then choose to join other units freely whilst adhering to Boss Mob? If Grotsnik cannot leave the unit until he is the last model remaining, does he have to try to maintain coherency with at least one other IC and would this keep the original unit 'alive' and in play?

xlDuke wrote:
So Ghaz, Grotsnik, the Big Mek and the Warbosses still count as the original unit when the Nobz die. Does them joining another unit also mean they are opting to leave their old unit?

Necessarily they must - an Independent Character cannot be part of more than one unit at a time, and when joined to a unit has no permission to join another unit with that unit.

An addition to confuse myself further: if all the Nobz are killed and it leaves all of the ICs out of coherency with each other, presumably the original unit is destroyed, can the ICs then choose to join other units freely whilst adhering to Boss Mob? If Grotsnik cannot leave the unit until he is the last model remaining, does he have to try to maintain coherency with at least one other IC and would this keep the original unit 'alive' and in play?

Why is the original unit destroyed? The unit has several surviving members who are restricted from leaving the unit, and are then required to move into unit coherency.

Necessarily they must - an Independent Character cannot be part of more than one unit at a time, and when joined to a unit has no permission to join another unit with that unit.

Is this made explicit somewhere in the rules? ICs have permission to join other units and I presume a unit consisting only of ICs can also all join another unit at the same time.

Why is the original unit destroyed? The unit has several surviving members who are restricted from leaving the unit, and are then required to move into unit coherency.

Page 166 says that if an IC is not within 2" coherency of another model in the unit he reverts back to being a single model unit. The models in this formation aren't forbidden from leaving the unit, they are forbidden from choosing to leave. If all the Nobz die and it leaves all the ICs out of coherency with each other don't they then just follow the normal rules for ICs and become single model units?

xlDuke wrote:

Necessarily they must - an Independent Character cannot be part of more than one unit at a time, and when joined to a unit has no permission to join another unit with that unit.

Is this made explicit somewhere in the rules? ICs have permission to join other units and I presume a unit consisting only of ICs can also all join another unit at the same time.

Only based on the fact that it is not stated or permitted at all and there is the line I quoted earlier about if the IC is in coherency with more than one unit, it must be announced which one it is part of. If you have to choose which one they are part of, they obviously cannot be part of two.

xlDuke wrote:
]

Why is the original unit destroyed? The unit has several surviving members who are restricted from leaving the unit, and are then required to move into unit coherency.

Page 166 says that if an IC is not within 2" coherency of another model in the unit he reverts back to being a single model unit. The models in this formation aren't forbidden from leaving the unit, they are forbidden from choosing to leave. If all the Nobz die and it leaves all the ICs out of coherency with each other don't they then just follow the normal rules for ICs and become single model units?

Only at the end of the next Movement Phase, and only if they keep their IC rules*. ICs joining another unit during the game is only considered the Movement Phase. ICs can only voluntarily leave a unit during the Movement Phase. All other points are involuntary, but coherency is only considered for the Movement Phase, not when the original models of the unit is shot out from underneath it.

*I mention keeping their IC rules as some Formations deny the ICs from leaving the unit Formation calls upon (such as the Necron Conclave of the Burning One). At which point, this discussion is moo. I am unfamiliar with the Waaagh Council formation, and some of the other statements have indicated that this may not be a possibility, so this stipulation was presented in the case of that eventuality.