Greater daemons of chaos - what are they worth?

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**mrhappyface**

So we chaos have a choice between 4 GMC's: Slaanesh for 666pts, Nurgle for 777pts, Khorne for 888pts and Tzeentch for 999pts (Sorry I don't remember their names). Obviously they are amazing models that would soundly thrash most things they came across but that doesn't mean anything at those points, you could take a god damned titan for those points! And what about against other cheaper GMC's and SH? Do you really think the Tzeentch lord could take on 4 wraithknights? Or the Khorne lord a Stompa kitted out with StrD cc weapons?

So what do you tgink the correct points cost of these models should be? Personally I feel prices of 500pts, 550pts, 600pts and 650pts better suits these models. Yes it isn't as fluffy but fluff should complement gameplay not impare it.

Thoughts?

**CrownAxe**

The tzeentch one is worth 999 points because its a Flying GMC and has a 3++ rerolling 1s with FNP

**mrhappyface**

CrownAxe wrote:
The tzeentch one is worth 999 points because its a Flying GMC and has a 3++ rerolling 1s with FNP

That is still 1000pts of yoir army flying about not getting stuck in. Yes he can use magic and summon stuff but at 1000pts you could take a lot more to do the same thing.
Would you be more scared of a GMC who isn't even going to attack you because he is flying about or would you be more scared of hundreds of pink horrors deep striking around you/charging up the board, summoning even more horrors just as you kill a few AND still have enough warpcharge to fire off a couple of StrD shots from their Tzeentch powers.

**jhe90**

The nurgle is tough as feth though. As expected but I believe like t10, 10 wounds, good save.

And big..... Big enough to be a walking los block.

**mrhappyface**

jhe90 wrote:
The nurgle is tough as feth though. As expected but I believe like t10, 10 wounds, good save.

And big..... Big enough to be a walking los block.

I don't understand how the Nurgle lord's toughness is less than the Khorne lord's. All of these problems are caused by this need to have the sacred numbers in the point costing. (Why couldn't Khorne's sacred number be 3!)

**CrownAxe**

Even without flying he's still T8 with 9 wounds. That's a Titan right there

**mrhappyface**

Even with T8 and W9 I would still like to see him try to take on 3 wraithknights.

**Jackal**

They are great until someone uses strength D.
Then its a ton of points wasted.

Better off with a Kytan as a lord of war.
Much cheaper, D weapon, higher initiative than a knight.
Oh, and atleast 150 points cheaper than the cheapest of the named GD's.

Don't get me wrong, the khorne one butchers GC's like made with never ending S10 attacks.
But GC's themselves tend to lack strength D, the main focal point for a huge model.

Birdys summoning is nothing compared to the templates of death it drops everywhere...........at unlimited range.

And the nurgle one is T9, but has a 4+ fnp ontop of that.

The only issue is strength D really.
Since most of it is blast, the thirster and birdy will live longer.

Edit: if your insistent about spending a ton of points, buy a warhound with 2 turbo lasers.

**CrownAxe**

mrhappyface wrote:
Even with T8 and W9 I would still like to see him try to take on 3 wraithknights.

Wraithknights are horribly undercosted and aren't a fair comparison

**mrhappyface**

Against a Stompa then? Or perhaps 3 IK? Both have StrD cc that will wreck those 9 wounds.

**Jackal**

Keep in mind the thirster is S10 with a huge number of basic attacks and another D6 extra when it charges.

If your fighting the knights 1 at a time it will tear through them with ease.

The stomps I'm not sure as I've never bothered to read it's rules.

**CrownAxe**

Its funny that everything looks bad when you only put it against things that are hard counters against GMCs and SHVs

**mrhappyface**

@CrownAxe
Well do you think they will be sending tactical squads to deal with the Daemon lords?

@Jackel
I know, I have used him. He is truely amazing at killing whatever you send him to kill. But in apocalypse games he is easily overpowered by shear weight of StrD weapons being fielded.

**CrownAxe**

You playing Apoc, you have 3000+ points do deal with the things that can kill your daemon lord

**Jackal**

I've seen him in a 1850 list before at a small tournament.
Was going pretty well until it met a revenant lol.

Long story short, the thirster needs to be in combat all the time, but he has a tendency of killing whatever he's against and ending up stood there like an idiot.

The slaanesh one is much the same as khorne, just slightly toned down and no wings.

Nurgle one is useless.
Yes, it has a ton of wounds, fnp, saves etc, but it's slow and not all that great in combat compared to the others.
He's bait for SD weapons as he has no chance of avoiding them.

Tzeentch is nasty, until you screw up with your ton of templates and your opponent gets to place them instead.
Then your army vanishes quickly.

**CrownAxe**

I wish you could take the daemon lords in normal games but they have a 25% cap for them on non-apoc games now.

**mrhappyface**

CrownAxe wrote:
You playing Apoc, you have 3000+ points do deal with the things that can kill your daemon lord

Have you tried neutralising all possible threats to your Daemon Lord when your playing an unholy concoction of IG, IK, Eldar and Necron.

**CrownAxe**

mrhappyface wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
You playing Apoc, you have 3000+ points do deal with the things that can kill your daemon lord

Have you tried neutralising all possible threats to your Daemon Lord when your playing an unholy concoction of IG, IK, Eldar and Necron.

Its like units are suppose to have a way to be killed or something

**mrhappyface**

You're missing the point. Of course the Daemon Lords should be able to be killed but at such a high point cost it shouldn't be so easy.
(Talking from experience)

**jhe90**

Maybe give them a rule limiting effect of d weapons, aka there pure energies, ie disregard additional wounds on a x plus roll.

**CrownAxe**

mrhappyface wrote:
You're missing the point. Of course the Daemon Lords should be able to be killed but at such a high point cost it shouldn't be so easy.
(Talking from experience)

Welcome to D-weapons. You think the Stompa isn't afraid of D-weapons either?

**mrhappyface**

We don't have to live in fear anymore... Join us and you will be free...

**Jackal**

Crown has it in 1.
D weapons scare everything.

They are just a tad too common lol.

Try using any nid GC's.
Then you will know over costed and under effective :p

**gwarsh41**

Outside of D weapons, it is insane hard to kill the daemon lords. They have crazy high toughness, and a ++3 save, which any self respecting daemon player will bump up to a ++2.

I've brough Scabriethrax in a few apoc games, twice against Tau. One was when the new FW superheavy was announced. My opponent proxied 3 of them. I had Scabby, a nurgle knight, and a Brass Scorpion. Those and enough daemons to make about 14k worth of goodies. The brass scorpion lost 2 hull points, no other superheavies were scratched.

Scabby deep struck turn 1 due to some apoc shenanigans and charged turn 2. Cursed earth went up next to him and the D shots that targeted him didn't roll 6. The knight was invisible, and the Scorpion had grimore and cursed earth.
The real threat was the rest of the daemon army. The 20 flesh hounds with 4 heralds did as much damage as the scorpion, charging 7 units at once. (4 riptides and 2 pathfinders and a firewarrior blob) then ran them all down.
In CC against something with D, whoever swings first and rolls the first 6 wins. It doesn't matter what you have, that is how it goes. Same with ranged. D strength makes the game a little frustrating like that. You can bring your favorite big toy, but that guy got lucky so pack it up and pack it in.
I feel bad for the Nids who don't have invulnerable save shenanigans and psychic crazypants like daemons do.

Chaos GMCs are overpriced, and every time they get a rules update, they get worse. The Nurgle one used to have instant death, then it was changed to deal 2 wounds instead of one, now it has the crappy plague flail. Thanks. The largest daemon of nurgle can't bring a balesword?

Outside of D shots though, good luck bringing them down.

**Formosa**

I charged scabbi with 10 red butchers and Angron, did sod all, they are hands down the best assault unit in the game, and it lived, the deamon lords are not crap, but they are slightly over priced.... Apart from the Tzeentch one, that one is worth the 1k tag

**wtnind**

Worth is a relative scale that goes from Wraith Knight to Mutilators. If your in a game that's big enough to be fielding them (apocalypse) then wasting points on overpriced models isn't too bad if it makes for some nice centre pieces and epic moments.

That said the one with the most worth are the flying one who at least requries 2 6s in a row to instagib with D. But throw in a few void shield generator relays and you can make the others work. They won't be as competitive as their equivalent points in flesh hounds but if your bringing 300 flesh hounds to an apocalypse game then your doing it wrong.