Fightin in a challenge

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**azgrim**

Had this issue regarding challenges come up in a recent game.
A single model charged a unit. A challenge was issued and at I 10 HoW kills the challenger. At this point my opponent argues that the combat is over since the challenge is still considered ongoing and I can’t attack models outside of it, likewise his models could not attack me. This seemed wrong but I couldn’t find where it says I am still able to attack and he can attack me.

**Mr. Shine**

'Outside Forces' under Challenges in the Character rules.

**CrownAxe**

That was 6ed. In 7ed challenges pretty much just force characters to allocate the wounds they cause to each other first, but operate like a normal combat otherwise

**azgrim**

The allocateing wounds once you have made attacks isnt part of the problem. The problem is being able to cause wounds in the first place. I was not able to find what gave permission to attack models outside of a challenge in the first place.

**CrownAxe**

azgrim wrote:
The allocateing wounds once you have made attacks isnt part of the problem. The problem is being able to cause wounds in the first place. I was not able to find what gave permission to attack models outside of a challenge in the first place.

Its the same permission thats lets you attack in close combat normally. The only thing challenges do as make you allocate to the other character first. Thats it.

**GoonBandito**

CrownAxe wrote:
azgrim wrote:
The allocateing wounds once you have made attacks isnt part of the problem. The problem is being able to cause wounds in the first place. I was not able to find what gave permission to attack models outside of a challenge in the first place.

Its the same permission thats lets you attack in close combat normally. The only thing challenges do as make you allocate to the other character first. Thats it.

Don't you have to roll To Hit and To Wound against the character in the Challenge though (using that character's WS and T values, which could be different from the unit)? Can you still do that if the character dies in the challenge before your Initiative step?

**insaniak**

GoonBandito wrote:
Don't you have to roll To Hit and To Wound against the character in the Challenge though (using that character's WS and T values, which could be different from the unit)? Can you still do that if the character dies in the challenge before your Initiative step?

Yes, the unit outside the challenge would be free to hit the enemy character, but whether or nor the character gets to hit anyone is somewhat more murky. While excess wounds inflicted by him are allowed to spill over into the squad, he can only direct attacks at his challenge opponent... which is no longer on the table.

So my take would be that he doesn't get to strike as his opponent is already dead, but the unit (or as much of it as is close enough) would still get to hit him.

As an aside, it's worth pointing out (just because so many people miss it) that in the specific example given in the original post, the challenge could only have actually taken place to begin with if the lone character had charged onto the enemy character or one of his squadmates within 2" f him, as models can only issue or accept challenges if they are engaged. So if you charge into an enemy unit that has its characters all at the back of the unit, it's entirely likely that no challenge can occur, at least for the first round of the combat.

**Trasvi**

insaniak wrote:
GoonBandito wrote:
Don't you have to roll To Hit and To Wound against the character in the Challenge though (using that character's WS and T values, which could be different from the unit)? Can you still do that if the character dies in the challenge before your Initiative step?

Yes, the unit outside the challenge would be free to hit the enemy character, but whether or nor the character gets to hit anyone is somewhat more murky. While excess wounds inflicted by him are allowed to spill over into the squad, he can only direct attacks at his challenge opponent... which is no longer on the table.

So my take would be that he doesn't get to strike as his opponent is already dead, but the unit (or as much of it as is close enough) would still get to hit him.

As an aside, it's worth pointing out (just because so many people miss it) that in the specific example given in the original post, the challenge could only have actually taken place to begin with if the lone character had charged onto the enemy character or one of his squadmates within 2" f him, as models can only issue or accept challenges if they are engaged. So if you charge into an enemy unit that has its characters all at the back of the unit, it's entirely likely that no challenge can occur, at least for the first round of the combat.

I can't see any requirement in the rules that characters must be engaged to be challenged. Only that their unit must be locked in combat.

To issue a challenge, nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challenger.

If your opponent has issued a challenge, you can now accept it – nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat to be the challengee.

Furthermore, neither the characters in the challenge nor the models that have made way to allow the characters to get into base contact make a Pile In move when their Initiative step is reached.

For the duration of the challenge, these two models are considered to be in base contact with each other and, when rolling To Hit and To Wound, they always use the Weapon Skill and Toughness of their opponent. When allocating Wounds caused by either of these two models, they must be allocated to their opponent first. These Wounds cannot be reallocated by the Look Out, Sir rule.

Combatant Slain
If a character that is involved in a challenge slays his opponent, each excess Wound inflicted by the victor is then allocated, one at a time, to the next nearest enemy model that is locked in the combat. When one of the combatants in a challenge is slain, regardless of which Initiative Step it is, the challenge is still considered to be ongoing until the end of the phase for the purposes of Outside Forces (see below).

Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

So as far as I can see... you would still get to attack IF you are still engaged at your initiative step.

HOWEVER: you have to still attack and wound on your (dead) opponent's weapon skill/toughness (and possibly armor save?) - as the challenge is still ongoing.

HMMMM. I just pieced the OP's example together. The combat might be over if at the next initiative step no-one can pile in to reach BTB. If the challenger is the highest initiative (quite likely) then he can't pile in.

Bloodthirster charges in to combat with X squad. He can only legally make it in to BTB with a single enemy model. Challenge is declared, champion is swapped over, and Bloodthirster kills it with HOW at I10.
At I9, no-one is in BTB, Bloodthirster isn't allowed to pile in.
Combat immediately ends and all remaining steps are lost.

Does that sound right???

**CrownAxe**

You don't actually switch the models around to be in B2B in a challenge.

Also you don't check for combat disengaging until after the initiative steps in the post combat pile in.

**Trasvi**

CrownAxe wrote:
You don't actually switch the models around to be in B2B in a challenge.

Yes you do:

Rulebook wrote:If a challenge has been accepted, it is time to move the two combatants into base contact with each other. Note that these moves cannot be used to move a character out of unit coherency. If possible, swap the challenger for a friendly model in base contact with the challengee. If this cannot be done, swap the challengee for a friendly model in base contact with the challenger. If neither of these moves would result in the two models being in base contact, ‘swap’ the challenger to as close as possible to the challengee and assume the two to be in base contact for the purposes of the ensuing fight.

CrownAxe wrote:
Also you don't check for combat disengaging until after the initiative steps in the post combat pile in.

Rulebook wrote:When making Pile In moves, the player whose turn it is moves his unit(s) first. If both players’ Pile In moves combined would be insufficient to bring any combatants back together (that’s more than 6" – very unlikely!), the assault comes to an end. All remaining Initiative steps are lost – work out the assault result as described below.

You do an end-of-combat pile-in after all initiative steps are done, but you do need to check at every initiative step that you're still engaged, or you skip over any remaining steps straight to the end of combat pile in and lose everyone's attacks.

**DeathReaper**

Trasvi wrote:
I can't see any requirement in the rules that characters must be engaged to be challenged. Only that their unit must be locked in combat.

Then you missed the rule in the Characters Chapter, Challenges section, Issuing a Challenge subsection, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence.

And Characters Chapter, Challenges section, Accepting a Challenge subsection, 1st Graph, 3rd sentence.

So the Character needs to be engaged not just locked in combat.

**Trasvi**

DeathReaper wrote:
Trasvi wrote:
I can't see any requirement in the rules that characters must be engaged to be challenged. Only that their unit must be locked in combat.

Then you missed the rule in the Characters Chapter, Challenges section, Issuing a Challenge subsection, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence.

And Characters Chapter, Challenges section, Accepting a Challenge subsection, 1st Graph, 3rd sentence.

So the Character needs to be engaged not just locked in combat.

Thankyou.

**insaniak**

Trasvi wrote:

I can't see any requirement in the rules that characters must be engaged to be challenged. Only that their unit must be locked in combat.

Check the last sentence under 'Accepting a Challenge'

Edit - ninjad.

The same requirement was in there last edition when Challenges were introduced. People missed it then, as well... But it makes Challenging with a single-model unit much more difficult. Although with the 'Outside Forces' rules, challenging with a single-model unit is now the next thing to pointless anyway....

Frankly., the whole Challenge system as it currently stands is ridiculous.

**Galef**

I don't think they are pointless, I did a pretty good job of negating a TON of TWC attacks by knowing the challenge rules. My opponent had a TWC deathstar and I had 2 DreadKnights. I moved the 2 DKs to opposite ends of the TWC unit, charged, then challenged with the DK that was at the end with the most models.

Because of the rule about allocating to the model in the challenge while there are other units locked in the combat, I was able to cause 5 TWC models to not be able to attack at all, b/c they were not within 2" of a model in base with the DK the was NOT in the Challenge and could not allocate wounds to the DK in the Challenge while the other was alive.

I still lost both DKs, cuz ya know Thunderwolves, but I was able to take down quite a few more and tie them up for 3 more turns than they should have been. All thanks to that challenge

--

**insaniak**

That's not what I was talking about, though, as you had more than just the single model in the combat.

**Galef**

True, I just felt like sharing.
Another benefit of the single model challenge is to "snipe" an enemy character, since LoS cannot be used in a challenge. If you have the movement to position so that the only engaged character is the one you want to snipe, they won't be able to accept with a different one.
You could use this to either force him to accept with he character you want, or if he denies, you can pick the character you want to not attack. Only single model characters can do this (as long as they are maneuverable)

**nosferatu1001**

The rules state the challenge doesnt end until the end of combt though, dont though? Could that be used to argue you can still attack, as you MUST attack?

I agree its definitely murky...

**Grizzyzz**

Galef wrote:
I don't think they are pointless, I did a pretty good job of negating a TON of TWC attacks by knowing the challenge rules. My opponent had a TWC deathstar and I had 2 DreadKnights. I moved the 2 DKs to opposite ends of the TWC unit, charged, then challenged with the DK that was at the end with the most models.

Because of the rule about allocating to the model in the challenge while there are other units locked in the combat, I was able to cause 5 TWC models to not be able to attack at all, b/c they were not within 2" of a model in base with the DK the was NOT in the Challenge and could not allocate wounds to the DK in the Challenge while the other was alive.

I still lost both DKs, cuz ya know Thunderwolves, but I was able to take down quite a few more and tie them up for 3 more turns than they should have been. All thanks to that challenge

--

So how was this the case exactly? since your swapping "one model" to replace your DK.. so all the other TWC would be able to consilidate onto your other DK unit. And 2" from the base of a TWC model is pretty far back.

**nosferatu1001**

No, they follow the move chargers rules, so have to get as close as possible. The challenging dk is still there, so they move towards him if he is closer - especially as some would have to get into base contact anyway.

With even a slightly strung out unit this isn't that tricky to pull off.