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Alex Kolodotschko wrote: I don't always 'thin' my paints, sometimes a wet brush from the pot and careful application can do very nicely.
When it comes to rank and file it's normally good enough.
Wouldn't thin if I were dry brushing either, but in general it's better to learn the 'correct' technique then decide when it's OK to cut corners than be told something isn't necessary when it often is in order to get the results I'd assume many are after.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 15:31:12
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
There's lots of times it's appropriate to not thin paint, with P3 paints I get away with using it straight from the pot without thinning a lot of the time as long as I keep the brush moist and clean (the moist brush is effectively thinning it though). However when giving advice to a new painter I'd always say to thin because then they can learn the times it's appropriate for themselves. Otherwise you end up with this...
It's far less of a problem if your paint is too than than if your paint is too thick.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/05 15:35:58
I shall confess as well that 95% of the time I don't thin my paints either, just take directly from GW pots. Why? Because I'm lazy, and for most cases it doesn't matter to me. When I'm painting something that I might some day want to post online, I would thin my paints in that case.
As for looking after paint brushes, I tend to mistreat mine and then throw them in the bin, and buy new ones.
This is not good advice, this is just the way I roll.
Azreal13 wrote: in general it's better to learn the 'correct' technique then decide when it's OK
As a beginner the margin of error can very wildly, being told to 'thin your paints' will leave you in a soupy mess, applying thick paint is somewhat more tangible and will allow a novice to 'dial down' a bit more easily, a damp brush normally works quite well.
It takes a bit of time to get used to the tiny variations involved in the hobby so I'd prioritize brush control and application over thinning when it comes to explaining how it all works to a novice.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/05 16:02:51
Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look!
Azreal13 wrote: in general it's better to learn the 'correct' technique then decide when it's OK
As a beginner the margin of error can very wildly, being told to 'thin your paints' will leave you in a soupy mess, applying thick paint is somewhat more tangible and will allow a novice to 'dial down' a bit more easily, a damp brush normally works quite well.
It takes a bit of time to get used to the tiny variations involved in the hobby so I'd prioritize brush control and application over thinning when it comes to explaining how it all works to a novice.
My advice is always to go to someone who is a decent painter and get them to show you how to do it in person.
It's sooooo hard to describe in words what you need to do, and trial and error can burn though a lot of really crappy looking models unless you have a natural talent for it. It took me about 2 and a half failed armies before I started to figure out some of the basic stuff, and even then I only started to figure it out because some people at the local store watched me painting stuff and were kind enough to say "oh, you know that might work better if you....".
Something like this tutorial from Duncan isn't bad for a beginner to get a handle on how to lay down paint....
But Duncan does a few things that I think are bad advice. For one he coats his brush within 1-2mm of the ferrule, this is a sure fire way to get paint in the ferrule and destroy the brush. You can get away doing that with oil paints, not acrylics. He also tells you to twist your brush to get a point, if you have a good brush you don't need to do that, just to a couple of small test strokes and it'll come to a point without twisting. My understanding is swirling your brush can lead to the point degrading faster because you are putting a weird bending tension on the bristles, though I don't know how true that is, I'm pretty sure it's something I read on Dakka. Either way, you don't have to twist brushes to get a good point. Duncan also occasionally does silly things in his videos like painting yellow over a black primer. He does always say to use multiple coats instead of one thick coat, but often the video is cut in a way that doesn't make it obvious to a beginner that certain steps would have taken 2-4 coats to achieve the effect.
Alex Kolodotschko wrote: I don't always 'thin' my paints, sometimes a wet brush from the pot and careful application can do very nicely.
When it comes to rank and file it's normally good enough.
I'm sure all of us have our little techniques that work great for us. That being said, it takes knowing the rules first, then learning when to break them.
The point is that telling someone who is new to never thin their paints is just bad advice. Regardless of how good of a painter you think you are.
But Duncan does a few things that I think are bad advice. For one he coats his brush within 1-2mm of the ferrule, this is a sure fire way to get paint in the ferrule and destroy the brush. You can get away doing that with oil paints, not acrylics. He also tells you to twist your brush to get a point, if you have a good brush you don't need to do that, just to a couple of small test strokes and it'll come to a point without twisting. My understanding is swirling your brush can lead to the point degrading faster because you are putting a weird bending tension on the bristles, though I don't know how true that is, I'm pretty sure it's something I read on Dakka. Either way, you don't have to twist brushes to get a good point. Duncan also occasionally does silly things in his videos like painting yellow over a black primer. He does always say to use multiple coats instead of one thick coat, but often the video is cut in a way that doesn't make it obvious to a beginner that certain steps would have taken 2-4 coats to achieve the effect.
I basically learned to paint watching all the tutorials on WarhammerTV. Duncan mentions multiple times in each vid how important it is to thin your paints and also specifically mentions that it sometimes takes more than two coats in many of his vids. I haven't noticed any of my brushes have issues with the twisting thing.There are other non- miniature painting tutorials that recommend doing the same thing to help with painting very fine lines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 16:44:56
The twisting your brush thing is new to me, without wanting to sound too superior or cynical, perhaps it's something that helps with lower quality brushes? I tend to stick to sable (I have W+N, Rosemary and Co and some non-branded) and they never really need any help coming to a point, just a rinse in water and a quick drag backwards over something absorbent and they're ready to go.
I use cheaper and synthetic brushes too, but it wouldn't be fair to critcise them for losing their points, because they tend to get used with harsh materials and techniques, which is exactly why I have them, and I'd certainly never advise someone to buy expensive brushes if they drybrush extensively or are using alcohol based paints, for instance.
But my own experience tells me that not all brushes are created equal, and that investing in better quality (and not even the most expensive) does pay dividends. I know I'm not alone in this, because I'm far from the only one who says this.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I was told to twist the brush only if the brush had lost its point and you want to reshape it. I don't think it harms your brush provided you aren't doing it excessively. But maybe Im wrong?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 17:59:47
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
I love me some Duncan, but lots of his methods seem to ensure you'll need to replace your paints and brushes often, as well as the citadel painting method just requiring more pots of paint in general.
kb_lock wrote: citadel painting method just requiring more pots of paint in general.
I'm not trying to be coy, but I'm really not sure what the "citadel painting method" is. I'm sorry for my newbishness.
It's just a paint by numbers method, buy a base, a layer, a shade, another layer, a drybrush or an edge, a glaze. Suddenly you've spent $15-25 just to paint one colour.
It's not a bad method, just one that requires the purchasing of a large number of individual pots to complete a model.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/05 20:18:10
The method works fine, but as skink said, you're buying 5 paints for one task. Even then, it's a lot of paint. The thinness of citadel layer paints mean they don't cover as well, so you need to use a base first - now your base coat is 4 layers thick
AllSeeingSkink wrote: buy a base, a layer, a shade, another layer, a drybrush or an edge, a glaze. Suddenly you've spent $15-25 just to paint one colour..
Yup, learning how to mix these things from two or three colours with different quantities of other mediums is the basis of painting.
In theory it's possible to paint everything with 5 paints: red, yellow, blue, black and white and maybe a metallic.
Saturation changes and having more vivid pigments helps for speed and gives colours a bit of pop.
Oli: Can I be an orc?
Everyone: No.
Oli: But it fits through the doors, Look!
Yup, learning how to mix these things from two or three colours with different quantities of other mediums is the basis of painting.
I've been thinking a lot about this. I guess my first goal is to learn to actually paint somewhat proficiently. I know that could take a lifetime, LOL!
That's what I found attractive about the Citadel line of products for painting. Like someone else said, it is fairly paint by numbers. I hope to eventually progress to the point where I am more comfortable and feel I can get more creative with mixing paints and colors and such. That's my personal reasoning.
I am starting to look more at other lines for a more expanded color pallet, though. The Vallejo colors are really nice.
I was the same, terrified of mixing paints. It makes some things really easy though, like skin. Basecoat of vmc tan, then sit some vmc bonewhite on the palette next to it and gradually mix them together - keep adding more and more bonewhite while painting less of the model. Easymode for skin
I find it hard to direct a new painter because there are so many paths that all can lead to a good looking finished miniature.
I think I would start with if I was to "correct" myself from when I first started:
1) Remove the mold lines from the model you lazy... ummm... they show up real bad when applying washes.
2) Do not be afraid to fill gaps in the model with putty or green stuff, again they show up more when painting.
3) Do you want to paint the model in easy to reach pieces or fully assembled? Some thoughts: fully assembled you can play your work in progress plus if it is hard to paint, it is hard to see right? Important note: When gluing ALWAYS ensure you remove paint where you try to bond or your model will fall apart: paint does not glue well.
4) Black, Grey or White primer. Think hard on this. Which one will become your go-to and why? Each represent different kinds of work.
5) Consider "Zenithal Highlighting" it makes it even more "paint by numbers". All bets are off with white primer.
6) Never, never, never start with a pure black or white when "block painting", go a few shades lighter/darker so you have somewhere to go when you try to darken shaded areas.
7) Do you not mind block painting? I got an airbrush purely to lay down the first layer of paint: I find it soul sucking on occasion.
8) Starting out, the quality of the brushes do not vary in a noticeable way at first, mainly holding it's tip point is important. I am now much more fussy, just save yourself some money at first and do not get too hung up on the high end brushes.
9) Look into some color theory, look at a color wheel for different types or groupings of contrasting colors.
10) Pay attention to those shading paints/washes and how to apply them. I was quite upset when I saw how these worked when they first came out. Results are awesome for little work.
11) Read-up a bit on "Edge Highlighting" and it's more frantic brother "dry-brushing". They would be the final details techniques to make models look awesome. BTW as you learn painting and "destroy" some brushes, they become your volunteers for dry-brushing: the technique is very hard on brushes.
12) Almost forgot: metalics! Thou shalt not mix metallic brush and water with other non-metallic paints without a thorough cleaning or your "non-metallic" model will look like it is going out to the disco... glitter bits... EVERYWHERE!
Bah! Too much advice.
Grab 10 guys, assembly-line paint.
Do another set, look back: you will see improvement.
Do a third set of 10, I promise you look back at the first group and you will want to redo them.
Do not though! That path leads to madness!
Good luck!
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
The nice thing about mixing your own paint is that it's easier to avoid having your shade/mid/highlight clashing. You learn to subtly tweak highlights and shades to get a better result.
The nice thing about not mixing your paints and just buying them is when you have 50-200 models to paint and you would like the colour to be the same every time you open the bottle.
I also suck at the artsy side of modelling so mixing paints has limited value to me. I'm not an artist, every time I try and learn about art it just confuses me more. A good artist needs to mix their own paints so they can fine tune the hue in their highlights and shade instead of just adjusting the lightness. A crap artist like me, our only hope is to accidentally stumble on to a good combination anyway
kb_lock wrote: I was the same, terrified of mixing paints. It makes some things really easy though, like skin. Basecoat of vmc tan, then sit some vmc bonewhite on the palette next to it and gradually mix them together - keep adding more and more bonewhite while painting less of the model. Easymode for skin
Nice! Are you using a wet palette with this technique?
I also suck at the artsy side of modelling so mixing paints has limited value to me. I'm not an artist, every time I try and learn about art it just confuses me more. A good artist needs to mix their own paints so they can fine tune the hue in their highlights and shade instead of just adjusting the lightness. A crap artist like me, our only hope is to accidentally stumble on to a good combination anyway
LOL, me too!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/05 22:35:46
kb_lock wrote: I was the same, terrified of mixing paints. It makes some things really easy though, like skin. Basecoat of vmc tan, then sit some vmc bonewhite on the palette next to it and gradually mix them together - keep adding more and more bonewhite while painting less of the model. Easymode for skin
Nice! Are you using a wet palette with this technique?
Worth noting this isn't just easy mode for skin, it's easy mode for pretty much anything, and gets much, much faster and better results than using several layers of different paints. You get much smoother transitions, spend less time cleaning your brush and switching paint pots, and have access to a much wider variety of colours, shades and hues. It really is liberating, and once you start, will pretty much become something you do on instinct.
Wet palettes aren't strictly necessary, I don't use one (and I use this process on pretty much everything that isn't metallic), but they do help if you're doing multiple/large models or are just a little slower with the brush, as the paint stays thin, liquid and mixable for much longer, and you use less as a result.
Honestly, the only reason I have so many pots of paint is convenience. They are expensive, but I'm too lazy and time poor to work at getting colours right. I'd rather use four pots and blend between those. I find it easier and faster.
Always thin. Especially with citadel base and layer. Cut it with water or medium and/or unload excess paint. There are few exceptions to this and with practice you will learn to identify them. Too little paint is far better then too much.
Wet palettes are great. They help you thin, blend and you don't have to race that stupidly short drying time on citadel brand as much. Make one with a tray, paper towels and baking of parchment paper. If you hate it then you've wasted all of a few drops of paint and some paper...
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