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With so many models getting put on larger bases, thus increasing the potential distance between models, I feel like the 3" blast marker just doesn't do anything. It should do 2-3 hits on a unit, but in my experience, it rarely does more than 1 hit after a scatter. I would rather have a weapon with 2 or more shots, than one with a small blast.

So, is the 3" blast showing it's age, or is it just me?

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Its an issue with the scale of the game in general, and the increasingly "Apocalypse"/"Epic" scale that 40k keeps pushing. Same way that small arms fire now is largely pointless for many armies.

Its situational imo - can still be useful against units in multi level rules due to the whole column of infinite height shenannigans, VS large vehcicles can still be useful and VS very tightly packed units, multiples of them still work (wyvern etc).
But overall, yes its probably suboptimal as a weapon type VS higher RoF weapons/large blasts/flamers.

It's almost like smart spacing by troops to prevent multiple casualties from things like grenades is a thing...

Yes, Small blast is good only in weapons with high RoF (like Grotzooka). I almost never use Frag missiles anymore, even Plasma cannon seldom feels useful. There is just not much infantry in the game anymore, and if there is it's large models like Wraithguard or Centurions.

I try to avoid using them. If you have an optimal target, and if your scatter die is in a good mood, then you might hit 2-3 targets. If you are lucky. But smart playing can deny a good target, and the scatter die is the most fickle, hateful, little cube of randomness on the planet. So the most likely outcome is you get 0-1 hits. Yawn.

I’ll pass.

Once you start TLing or are heavy4 barrage, then they can start paying off. But generally things like frag missiles and plasma cannons are a waste of time and points.

I would agree that the Small Blast is starting to show it's age. As other's have said; higher ROF weapons, larger bases...

I would even suggest that the ease in which players can access tactical discussions online; specifically models dispersement; has an effect on the value of Small Blasts.

Not sure how to add value to Small Blasts other than increasing the size (not my first choice), or perhaps a scatter reduction of some sort. e.g. -2" within half range, -1" over half range (just an example). Or cover saves taken from the center of the blast?

Ya Know, even with a large blast, I think higher RoF weapons are better.
Take the DK heavy Psycannon for example: either 6 shots or a large blast. Every time I have attempted to use the large blast (on say a clump of Guants or Cultists), it scatters slightly off and I get less hits than if I just fired the 6-shot version.

Small blasts aren't too great for trying to kill a well formed enemy deployment but it really shines when the battle is unfolding and you have blobs of units from consolidating out of close combats, terrain, vehicle explosions, etc that cause units to end up lumped together. As the game goes on movements tend to get more sloppy so its easier to find opportunities to hit multiple units.

They aren't the best in the game (sadly for Orks the KMK small blast is the best ranged weapon we have bar some superheavy stuff S8 AP2) but for the rest of my life I will remember playing against a DA player who deep struck a deathstar of terminators behind my lines....only for my 5 KMK's to pivot on the spot (not movement) and fire 5 S8 AP2 small blasts into their tight packed ranks, utterly destroying his best/most expensive unit.

SpookyRuben wrote:
I would agree that the Small Blast is starting to show it's age. As other's have said; higher ROF weapons, larger bases...

I would even suggest that the ease in which players can access tactical discussions online; specifically models dispersement; has an effect on the value of Small Blasts.

Not sure how to add value to Small Blasts other than increasing the size (not my first choice), or perhaps a scatter reduction of some sort. e.g. -2" within half range, -1" over half range (just an example). Or cover saves taken from the center of the blast?

IIRC one of the early editions you rolled to hit normally (with BS). If you hit, you could place it where you aimed. If you missed, then you rolled for scatter to see where you ended up.

Yes, I believe it is rather useless at this point. Like, the Death Ray is great. But, only hitting 2 models maybe, and only getting one hit on a vehicle makes it moderately good at best (taking it's statline into account, which is rather good). Then I play my Tyranids, and with their lower BS, anything that is a small blast literally is pointless. Miasma Cannon, Venom Cannon, Bio Plasma, Warp Blast (Only worth using on Zoanthropes, which even then is meh. But it appears I always get it on my Flyrant), Spine Banks, all of which are borderline useless if not completely useless.

If anything, being forced to place the centre over a model is what kills you with blasts. It'd hit more stuff if you could place it such that any part of the blast touches a model. I know I'm pretty frequently hoping for small scatters just to increase how many models I can hit! That's a sure sign that there's a problem.

As others have said, they do better on high ROF weapons. On their own? Forget it.

The one great thing about blasts, even small ones, is against very large targets it is hard or almosr impossible to miss with.

That said, with saves being what they are and the nature of MC's and vehicles in 7E, ROF beats blasts any day of the week.

 djones520 wrote:
It's almost like smart spacing by troops to prevent multiple casualties from things like grenades is a thing...

This. Small blasts are there to punish clumping from poor moving or deep striking units. Troops should be spaced out to avoid small explosions like grenades killing more than 1 person, even in WW2/WW1 era




That said, I feel like Small Blast is pretty useless. To that end, I propose that Blast now refers to the 5" template, Large Blast means the next size above that, Massive Blast be removed altogther as I see nothing ever that uses it, and then Apocalyptic Blast be the 3rd and final size

Or we just do point adjustments for those weapons or give them an extra shot.

 Nevelon wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:
I would agree that the Small Blast is starting to show it's age. As other's have said; higher ROF weapons, larger bases...

I would even suggest that the ease in which players can access tactical discussions online; specifically models dispersement; has an effect on the value of Small Blasts.

Not sure how to add value to Small Blasts other than increasing the size (not my first choice), or perhaps a scatter reduction of some sort. e.g. -2" within half range, -1" over half range (just an example). Or cover saves taken from the center of the blast?

IIRC one of the early editions you rolled to hit normally (with BS). If you hit, you could place it where you aimed. If you missed, then you rolled for scatter to see where you ended up.

I have a vague memory of this rule. To be honest I think it would add a lot of value to the current state of Small Blasts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we just do point adjustments for those weapons or give them an extra shot.

Or how about we nerf the high ROF weapons?

Enough with fething power creep, already.

SpookyRuben wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

SpookyRuben wrote:
I would agree that the Small Blast is starting to show it's age. As other's have said; higher ROF weapons, larger bases...

I would even suggest that the ease in which players can access tactical discussions online; specifically models dispersement; has an effect on the value of Small Blasts.

Not sure how to add value to Small Blasts other than increasing the size (not my first choice), or perhaps a scatter reduction of some sort. e.g. -2" within half range, -1" over half range (just an example). Or cover saves taken from the center of the blast?

IIRC one of the early editions you rolled to hit normally (with BS). If you hit, you could place it where you aimed. If you missed, then you rolled for scatter to see where you ended up.

I have a vague memory of this rule. To be honest I think it would add a lot of value to the current state of Small Blasts.

and it would make me stop fielding them all together At this point for my orks, KMKs and other blast templates are the only reliable way of getting High strength low AP weapons to hit vehicles or elite infantry. or in the case of lobbas, of getting lots of anti infantry RANGED firepower. something orks don't really need but meh..

The Best and I mean the BEST anti-tank ranged weapon the Ork army has is the KMK. It is significantly more survivable then the tank bustas and has a 36in range meaning they don't need to move as much.

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or we just do point adjustments for those weapons or give them an extra shot.

Or how about we nerf the high ROF weapons?

Enough with fething power creep, already.

Even if you nerfed other weapons, Plasma Cannons still won't be worth taking.

Why would you stop fielding them all together Semper? I'm not seeing a downside to Nevlon's recall of an older version of the rule. In fact it's more likely to be on target.

I'm just confused by your remarks.

Slayer-Fan wrote:Even if you nerfed other weapons, Plasma Cannons still won't be worth taking.

1. What's wrong with plasma cannons?

If you're thinking of gets hot, this doesn't apply to gladius strike force armies for 3 turns of the game.

2. It really depends on how much you nerf those other weapons, doesn't it?

Plasma cannons in my gladius have done very very well honestly.People tend to underestimate them, thus allowing them to deal heavy damage. If they weren't cheap, I wouldn't take them, but they are decent.

Small blasts, plasma cannons especially, definitely have a role in shooting at units whose transports have been destroyed. Obviously if your anti-vehicle strategy is to wreck through glances, then the utility of small blasts is further diminished.

Plasma Canon Dev Squads can spell instant doom for most anything they fire at, with the exception of large Blobs. Light vehicles included because it's hard (not impossible, but hard) to miss.

Do small blasts have a place? Yes as a marine player they are invaluable for thinning out Blobs in assault range of other units, because they're more reliable in "danger close" situations. The large blast of say a Vindicator is often too dangerous to fire if my terminators are too close to cultists, Guard, or Orks for an assault.

I can punk out a few models at range with a Plasma or Missile Dev Squad with less chance of killing my own guys.

And I would cringe to see the thunderfire (and subsequently my Rapier Quad Launchers) upgraded to a 5" template.. they're powerful as is.

Traditio wrote:

Slayer-Fan wrote:Even if you nerfed other weapons, Plasma Cannons still won't be worth taking.

1. What's wrong with plasma cannons?

If you're thinking of gets hot, this doesn't apply to gladius strike force armies for 3 turns of the game.

2. It really depends on how much you nerf those other weapons, doesn't it?

1. Forgetting Gets Hot on my end. The damage output is bad. Spamming Plasma Guns would get you more results.
2. Not really. A small blast for 15 points? I'll pass for something else. Hell, you'd be better off paying 5 extra points for Lascannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:1. Forgetting Gets Hot on my end. The damage output is bad. Spamming Plasma Guns would get you more results.

Plasma cannons have an additional 12" range.

2. Not really. A small blast for 15 points? I'll pass for something else. Hell, you'd be better off paying 5 extra points for Lascannons.

It's a strength 7, AP 2 small blast at 36 inch range.

If you're saying that this is bad, then my previous point bears repeating:

Other stuff needs serious nerfs.

SpookyRuben wrote:
Why would you stop fielding them all together Semper? I'm not seeing a downside to Nevlon's recall of an older version of the rule. In fact it's more likely to be on target.

I'm just confused by your remarks.

Because when I am trying to hit vehicles and large blobs with my KMKs I will ALWAYS hit unless i roll a 9+ with the dice and even then if its a big enough blob i'll still hit something. The dice guarantee a 1/3rd hit rate just with the "direct hit" arrows.

With the older system I would have to rely on my BS skill which for orks is TERRIBLE. Even with the grots manning the guns its only BS3 so I have a 50/50 hit rate compared to an almost guaranteed hit before. Ork artillery is probably the only highlight in an otherwise terrible codex.

Small blasts got a nerf when GW changed base sizes to 32mm.

Really, all blasts got a nerf when GW increased base size.