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I thought mabye after the whole space wolf and super effecient wulfen, mabye GW saw the power creep and decided to start turning it down again. The Ork formation is gimicky, expensive, and loses its whole purpose the second ghazkull dies. The flyer ones give very little benefit for a huge investment of points, and they even managed to TAKE AWAY one of the more popular formations green tide. The guard got equally if not more screwed with a formation with an impractical in most situations minimum investment of troops, and a mediocre tank version.

Then the first leaks of the chaos ones launched. Take 3 to 5 sorcerors and each one contributes a "free" warp charge to a unique 3 warp charge spell with a 30 inch range "control a non vehicle enemy unit to shoot for you this turn". Suddenly those 3 riptides or two stormsurges are doing work for you. There are other good ones in the rumors thread, that's just an example.

I'm not saying chaos has not had these coming for a long time. Just wondering where the equal love/treatment went for the orks/guard. Do the game devs look at horde armies and say "wow look at all those extra bodies they have. That's op, better buff elite armies"?

I fear for future tyranid formations. Take 1800 points of filler, and you get an extra warp charge and free wings for your one mandatory hive tyrant!

The sorcerer one is the only good one. Even then you still are committing 500+ points to a few MEQ marines (and you'll probably have to spend points on Master Levels and Bikes

GW is a model company. Good rules are bad for gameplay. Poor balance is the fault of the players. Forge the narrative. Random tables and effects are the hallmarks of great tacticians. L2P.

I think I covered all the possible arguments here.

The only thing consistent with GW is their inconsistency. They're equally good at having good ideas and failing spectacularly at executing them. Shmeh. Vote with wallet and all that.

 CrownAxe wrote:
The sorcerer one is the only good one. Even then you still are committing 500+ points to a few MEQ marines (and you'll probably have to spend points on Master Levels and Bikes

So? Put them on bikes, give them Mark of Nurgle, and you're set.


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Welcome to 40k. GW also removed Green Tide, one of the last fun and competitive Ork builds without resorting to Forgeworld. GW I think just likes to hose Guard and Orks.

We all knew orks got the shaft before this. Imagine what the new SM formations are going to be like.

28 new psychic powers, 5 new formations, 3 new units.

Orks 3 of the same formation and a crappy decurion only army wide rules are drawbacks. Orks I think are just meant to be that army for the "hero" armies to kill.

GW is perfectly capable of writing good rules, they just choose to only for marines , tau and eldar.

 Blacksails wrote:
GW is a model company. Good rules are bad for gameplay. Poor balance is the fault of the players. Forge the narrative. Random tables and effects are the hallmarks of great tacticians. L2P.

I think I covered all the possible arguments here.

The only thing consistent with GW is their inconsistency. They're equally good at having good ideas and failing spectacularly at executing them. Shmeh. Vote with wallet and all that.

this is pretty much it. GW is awful at actully executing anything, seemingly going out of their way to do so in many instances.

As a guard player , the emperors wrath artillery company and the recon company is pretty solid. Also if you are doing tons of tanks the emperors fist is alright.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
The sorcerer one is the only good one. Even then you still are committing 500+ points to a few MEQ marines (and you'll probably have to spend points on Master Levels and Bikes

So? Put them on bikes, give them Mark of Nurgle, and you're set.

And if you give them MoN now they have to roll on the awful Nurgle Discipline

The point I was making is that CSM so far aren't making off like bandits like the OP is implying. This sorcerer formation is the ONLY good formation. All the other formations suck because they are bad units with mediocre bonuses. But even then its not amazing. For one its still a bunch of mediocre Chaos Sorcerers and the only bonus they get is a once per turn psychic power. And that power is only as good as your opponent's most shooty unit. Sure its amazing against a unit of multiple stormsurges or Centstar but what about when you face Daemons which is an army with no shooting outside of vehicles, or a Mech list with barely any non-vehicle shooting, or extreme MSU where the best unit to steal is 5 SMs with bolters. There are a lot of list that this power basically amounts to nothing in which case this formation is only take 3-5 sorcerers and nothing else.

Yes Orks totally got shafted (they lost more good formatioans then they got) but IG did fine and got a few solid formations. So far I think CSM aren't doing better then IG.

"Take control of a riptide" I'm happy that they won't get to control my markerlights, and I'm happy that coordinated firepower benefits small units. I can't wait to watch that one riptide miss 1/3rd the time.

IG & Orks largely arent allowed to have nice things generally

It also doesnt help that seemingly GW doesnt understand how these armies actually function either or what people really use.

 Jaxler wrote:
"Take control of a riptide" I'm happy that they won't get to control my markerlights, and I'm happy that coordinated firepower benefits small units. I can't wait to watch that one riptide miss 1/3rd the time.

I was refering to the posability of controlling a riptide wing. And 2 or 3 of them that overcharged for the guns are good without markerlights.

As for how good the formations are, I was basing that off earlier hype when only good things were said about them. So it may in fact not be much better. But the other books formations have yet to be leaked either, so the possability is still there.

Indeed. If they do take a Riptide, might be possible to shave off a few wounds with Get's Hot rolls.

 Orock wrote:

 Jaxler wrote:
"Take control of a riptide" I'm happy that they won't get to control my markerlights, and I'm happy that coordinated firepower benefits small units. I can't wait to watch that one riptide miss 1/3rd the time.

I was refering to the posability of controlling a riptide wing. And 2 or 3 of them that overcharged for the guns are good without markerlights.

As for how good the formations are, I was basing that off earlier hype when only good things were said about them. So it may in fact not be much better. But the other books formations have yet to be leaked either, so the possability is still there.

A Riptide Wing is still 3 seperate riptides, so still only controlling one of them

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
We all knew orks got the shaft before this. Imagine what the new SM formations are going to be like.

28 new psychic powers, 5 new formations, 3 new units.

Orks 3 of the same formation and a crappy decurion only army wide rules are drawbacks. Orks I think are just meant to be that army for the "hero" armies to kill.

GW is perfectly capable of writing good rules, they just choose to only for marines , tau and eldar.

The Orkcurion may be clunky as all hell, but "only army wide rules are drawbacks?" What are you smoking?

Last time I checked, army wide run and charge, army wide fearless, 3 warlord traits, permanent 2++ on an EW beatstick, hammer of wrath (albeit on S3 models) and preferred enemy everything if Ghaz kills something in a challenge is not a drawback. Are you complaining about the mob rule thing? Because army wide fearless removes it entirely!

Guard detachment rightly sucks ass. But I just think of the Ghaz-curion as an army sized formation to make Ghaz an absolute monster.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
We all knew orks got the shaft before this. Imagine what the new SM formations are going to be like.

28 new psychic powers, 5 new formations, 3 new units.

Orks 3 of the same formation and a crappy decurion only army wide rules are drawbacks. Orks I think are just meant to be that army for the "hero" armies to kill.

GW is perfectly capable of writing good rules, they just choose to only for marines , tau and eldar.

The Orkcurion may be clunky as all hell, but "only army wide rules are drawbacks?" What are you smoking?

Last time I checked, army wide run and charge, army wide fearless, 3 warlord traits, permanent 2++ on an EW beatstick, hammer of wrath (albeit on S3 models) and preferred enemy everything if Ghaz kills something in a challenge is not a drawback. Are you complaining about the mob rule thing? Because army wide fearless removes it entirely!

Guard detachment rightly sucks ass. But I just think of the Ghaz-curion as an army sized formation to make Ghaz an absolute monster.

Except that orks already had a way to take army wide run/charge and the stupid S3 HoW attacks. Ghaz doesn't give his army preferred enemy if he kills something The rule is that if he kill someone in a challenge he gets to reroll HIS to hit rolls. The only benefit to the orkurion is the 2++ for Ghaz and the fearless. Don't get me wrong, fearless for orks is awesome, but not worth paying 800-1000 points for a deathstar where only 1 model has a invul save.

As a Chaos player, the fact you are decrying that you got hosed because one of our supplements is getting some sub-par formations absolutely kills me.

I mean, we still have to use our core Codex. You know, that outdated relic from the very start of 6th edition, built on 5th edition principles? You know, the book that has literally seen multiple Codexes released AFTER it get updates and amendments?

Let's see....

Dark Angels - got a whole new Codex.
Chaos Daemons - got new lores, new traits, new artefacts, decurion formation and formations in a campaign supplement.
Tau - got a 'new' Codex with points values updated, Decurion formation, new units and formations.
Eldar - got a new Codex.
Space Marines - not only got a new Codex but started drowning in supplemental material.
Imperial Knights - also got a new Codex.
Space Wolves - got supplemental material in a campaign supplement which includes rules and point amendments and a new unit.

Chaos and Sisters of Battle have languished since the start of 6th edition....

Which wouldn't be so bad except Chaos are in the starter box and still on shelves to buy direct from stores. And we're still floundering behind.

Sorry Ork and AM players. Really, I am. But if us getting possibly one useable formation in a supplement means you got hosed with your Decurion Detachments, upgraded traits, artefacts, formations and Codexes released after our sloppy hot mess of a book....

Hoo boy.

Lets be real, nothing about the last IG book was really "upgraded", it was almost as much of a hot mess as the CSM codex, with a stupid name change to boot (nor did it get any integral formations as it was the last of the 6E books).

My two largest armies are IG and CSM's...so I feel extra bitter.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets be real, nothing about the last IG book was really "upgraded", it was almost as much of a hot mess as the CSM codex, with a stupid name change to boot (nor did it get any integral formations as it was the last of the 6E books).

My two largest armies are IG and CSM's...so I feel extra bitter.

My two biggest armies are Guard and Orks...I had my dreams smashed twice in the past few months.

I have since started an AdMech army just to change it up a bit.

He's just crying about how bad the Orks and guard update was chaos update is nice but hardly inspiring without a decent decorian. I'm sure csm will be fine after the two books update but still won't be competitve.

Honestly the book that scares me is the space marine update. I can only imagine the horror of overpoweredness coming from the iron hand formations and decorian.

I'll make some guesses now rerollable fnp saves on an army that can probably get mass 3+ fnp and 2+ on characters, rerollable iwnd on vehicles. Maybe even a iron hands battle company type decorian because that seems to be GW stitck for space marines. Clan rakagtun was already a good book with good warlord traits and relics, allow relics to be taken from multiple lists and stack on formation bonuses on top of it and you get space marines that are about as easy to kill as necrons.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets be real, nothing about the last IG book was really "upgraded", it was almost as much of a hot mess as the CSM codex, with a stupid name change to boot (nor did it get any integral formations as it was the last of the 6E books).

My two largest armies are IG and CSM's...so I feel extra bitter.

CSMs and Tyranids - even my 'new' units got super gimped when the only things they could kill reliably were turned into GCs and became practically immune to them. Ayyyyy. (RIP Toxicrene - you were good for all of 6 months before Wraithknights suddenly became GCs).

Sold my Flesh Tearers - technically to pay bills but actually because watching Space Wolves get buffed dreads, squadroned vehicles and a Decurion of their own made me feel super sad.

Guard did get some formations padded to them in the Tau filled campaign though. Maybe not fantastic but still more than Chaos.

You know it's bad when I've decided to just play 30k because hey, when everyone's a Marine there's no ridiculous gaps in balance....least not to the extent of Codex: CSM 6th ed.

 CrownAxe wrote:
The sorcerer one is the only good one.

Khorne one is good too. It's not amazing cause you're forced to take zerkers, however, free marks and 1-st turn WAAAGH! are amazing for raptors. They have a real potential of drowning the enemy in s6 attacks.

I don't know about relics and votlw, however. Are you forced to spend points of votlw? Can you take codex relics? It might affect things a lot.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
We all knew orks got the shaft before this. Imagine what the new SM formations are going to be like.

28 new psychic powers, 5 new formations, 3 new units.

Orks 3 of the same formation and a crappy decurion only army wide rules are drawbacks. Orks I think are just meant to be that army for the "hero" armies to kill.

GW is perfectly capable of writing good rules, they just choose to only for marines , tau and eldar.

The Orkcurion may be clunky as all hell, but "only army wide rules are drawbacks?" What are you smoking?

Last time I checked, army wide run and charge, army wide fearless, 3 warlord traits, permanent 2++ on an EW beatstick, hammer of wrath (albeit on S3 models) and preferred enemy everything if Ghaz kills something in a challenge is not a drawback. Are you complaining about the mob rule thing? Because army wide fearless removes it entirely!

Guard detachment rightly sucks ass. But I just think of the Ghaz-curion as an army sized formation to make Ghaz an absolute monster.

For a 900 point unit, that can be shut down by a smart opponent or a real death star. Army wide draw backs are da boss is watching and Biggest and da best.

If having to take a 900 point sub par death star just to avoid the army wide crappy rules is "good", I'd hate to see what bad is. Army wide run and charge is crap if the rest of your force is so bad since you have to sink half your points into the council.

And once ghazz is dead, army wide fearless and run and charge is gone.

One unit does not win games when the rest of the army can't do anything.

People need to stop thinking the council is good and makes orks playable.


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Also CSM have the benefit of KDK and Demons to allie with and mix with, orks have no such luxury.

So chaos has more options as a whole, than orks, imo.

Wow. People are now having arguments about whose army is the worst. It's okay. Everyone here is running bottom rung armies. But we're doing it because we love the theme and fluff instead of power gaming. We're much better for the game than power gamers.

 Blacksails wrote:
GW is a model company. Good rules are bad for gameplay. Poor balance is the fault of the players. Forge the narrative. Random tables and effects are the hallmarks of great tacticians. L2P.

I think I covered all the possible arguments here.

The only thing consistent with GW is their inconsistency. They're equally good at having good ideas and failing spectacularly at executing them. Shmeh. Vote with wallet and all that.

What the man said.

If you wanted even a half-balanced game from 40K you should have given up when 6th edition was launched. It's got worse and worse since then.

People need to face the fact that GW is controlled by the players who have kept enthusiastically buying the new mega models and formations that GW have been squirting out in the past three to four years.

I am not saying this as a jibe at those players. A wide open wacky game where anything goes and everything keeps changing is a perfectly reasonable concept and can be a good laugh. It's just incompatible with balance.

Munga wrote:
Wow. People are now having arguments about whose army is the worst. It's okay. Everyone here is running bottom rung armies. But we're doing it because we love the theme and fluff instead of power gaming. We're much better for the game than power gamers.

For sure, if the game was catered for us.
It isn't and it won't be.

I see less and less guard, orks and csm as we go on.
The ba guy had a terrible, terrible game against tau last week even when playing with terrain.

A guy brought an eldar all biker netlist with magic shenanigans against my CSM. He's an alright guy but:
- I was already done at the list building phase
- He keeps to himself so the talking is usually done by me/his opponent
- It's gonna be 2/3 hours

He went to play x-wing or something else quick, i went to the pub with someone else.

I don't really think that the experience is getting any better when the punching bags armies get paired with mid-upper tier codex.

The minis are still a blast to paint, and are getting better and better, but with no game I'd only buy a token miniature here and there.

I get the frustration of not having the shiny toys that other armies have but I have learned if I were to keep thinking about what other people have I would go mad. Better to focus on what you have to work with and make the most of it. Its surprising how often I have seen a good player with a great understanding of a subpar army beat a Top Tier/Net List.

The coven of sorcerers one is the only decent one out of them all, and you're going to spending huge amounts of points to get it off

 gmaleron wrote:
I get the frustration of not having the shiny toys that other armies have but I have learned if I were to keep thinking about what other people have I would go mad. Better to focus on what you have to work with and make the most of it. Its surprising how often I have seen a good player with a great understanding of a subpar army beat a Top Tier/Net List.

What other people have is an actual viable Codex.

That's the difference.

I've been Chaos through and through since late 2nd ed. Always Nurgle. All the way through. And the past two editions have sucked cancerous balls because flyers, superheavies and gargantuan creatures have waddled into my 40k and because I personally love my footslogging, trench warfare, all terrain dangerous infantry fluff I won't go Mech or Vehicle heavy nor do I feel I should be buying Hellturkeys to just be viable.

People say Nurgle hasn't been hit as hard...oh we have. Slowly but surely we have. Points have gone up, FNP has gotten worse and our Initiative has plummeted..we're basically being killed by the core rulebook over time.

Kinda feel sorry for Khornate players too - all those Power Axes modelled to be fluffy and dedicated to your god just to have the core rules go LOL UNWIELDY meaning that your mandatory challenges (which really is kind of potentially awesome and thematic for Khorne at least) become a quick and easy way to throw away characters as the enemy HQ splats you before you even get to strike.

We're all bottom tier here lads. Meet you at the pub.