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Lets say a strictly codex compliant chapter, for universal acceptance' sake lets go with the , had their full compliment of 1000 marines, including scouts, and they went on a harvesting run to get more initiates for the inevitable losses. And they ended up with a super batch and had 200 survive the trials and begin the implants and training.
Then the chapter goes on a 20 year dream run where they don't lose a single marine. Every warzone they travel to is already pacified by the time they get there, or when they get there it turns out the big bad warlord was actually just gas.
So now they have all their marines alive and kicking which is great, but if they were waiting for losses then they have an excess of scouts and a bunch of initiates who got too old to progress any further.
So the question is, when it becomes obvious the initiates will be wasted if the next steps aren't taken would the chapter:
- say too bad initiates, enjoy your life as servitors, and scouts just be patient OR
- progress with the initiates and promote the scouts and just have too many for a while until the dream run ends OR
- progress with the initiates and promote the scouts and start going on much more suicidal missions until the numbers even out?

Factors to consider:
I know the codex is a guide and not a strict set of numbers, but an extra 20% seems a bit much for such stiff shirts.
In order to get the extra gene-seeds to cover this excess it will require a special allowance from the Adeptus Mechanicus storage, or to take the mature gene-seeds from the still living veterans. Either raises issues which may not be worth it.

They would still elevate marines, despite the dry streak of killing. They could always ship some off to the Deathwatch, or the initiates could be reassigned to chapters (that are close to the Ultramarines, in the example) that have taken heavier casualties, or could be used as the basis for a new founding, forming the core of a few new chapters.

Unlike other Companies in a Space Marine Chapter, there is no fixed limit on how large a chapters 10th company should be. Thus some chapters, most notable the Raven Guard and Ultramarines, field large numbers of scouts. - Codex Space Marines 7th edition page 35

so the answer is Gulliman anticipated this problem and foresaw that the 10th company would have to be flexable in it's numbers. The Ultramarines proably field a large number of scouts because they can, in a good year, take in more then they lose.

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:
In order to get the extra gene-seeds to cover this excess it will require a special allowance from the Adeptus Mechanicus storage, or to take the mature gene-seeds from the still living veterans. Either raises issues which may not be worth it.

Taking geneseed from the living is the method used, mostly. Marines are implanted with two sets, one of which can be harvested after five years (and usually is). The other set is mature after ten years but usually harvested only on death which could mean it is lost if the marine is vaporized or killed too far from an Apothecary. Geneseed for an extra couple hundred scouts is well within the realm of possibilities as the AdMech tithe (used to check for instability and to found future Chapters) is only 5% of the total. Numbers are kept in check by the Codex more than the amount of geneseed available.

A right upstanding Chapter like the UM wouldn't be in trouble for this, but would probably take steps to set things in order once it's clear they're going to be over the limit for some time. As Crazyterran said there's always a use for scouts/initiates. Gift some to a UM descendant that's taken heavy losses, send more marines to Deathwatch service or ask the High Lords if they'd like to found a new Chapter. Just going suicidal would be against the Codex IMO.

A right upstanding Chapter like the UM wouldn't be in trouble for this, but would probably take steps to set things in order once it's clear they're going to be over the limit for some time.

except they don't, because apparently there is no limit, a advantage (loop hole some might say? ) that it would apper the Ultramarines exploit.

Gaining more Marines than you lose wouldn't be considered a loophole. It'd be cause to celebrate.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Gaining more Marines than you lose wouldn't be considered a loophole. It'd be cause to celebrate.

And a true Codex Chapter wouldn't abuse it to stay a few hundred over the limit. They would either slow down or donate initiates/geneseed to a successor.

The limit doesn't apply to Scouts as they aren't full Battle Brothers until they have been implanted with the Black Carapace, which happens after they are accepted into one of the other Companies.

So technically, a Chapter could have 11 Companies.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The limit doesn't apply to Scouts as they aren't full Battle Brothers until they have been implanted with the Black Carapace, which happens after they are accepted into one of the other Companies.

So technically, a Chapter could have 11 Companies.

But then a Chapter would always have more than 1000 Marines at full strength, including Scouts (which in fairness, they do count). And what would be in that company? More Tacs? Or maybe another vet company?

The proper reason there's 10 companies in a Chapter is probably because it is a nice, round number.

The numbers have always been off, as they assume no techmarines, commanders, command squads, apothecaries, librarians, chaplains, etc. At the end of the day it's not a hard and fast number for the whole chapter, it in theory represents the rank and file marine numbers only, and the scouts don't manage to sit at 100 scouts by any means.

Spetulhu wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Gaining more Marines than you lose wouldn't be considered a loophole. It'd be cause to celebrate.

And a true Codex Chapter wouldn't abuse it to stay a few hundred over the limit. They would either slow down or donate initiates/geneseed to a successor.

Well the last time they had a pseudo-exact number, there were ~1400 Ultramarines excluding scouts.

The real codex breakdown is 9 battle companies of roughly 100 marines, Scout company, command staff, and support staff. Incidentally, all the vehicle pilots are part of "support staff". There's 2 Marines for every Rhino and roughly one Rhino for every squad, for example.

 WarbossDakka wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The limit doesn't apply to Scouts as they aren't full Battle Brothers until they have been implanted with the Black Carapace, which happens after they are accepted into one of the other Companies.

So technically, a Chapter could have 11 Companies.

But then a Chapter would always have more than 1000 Marines at full strength, including Scouts (which in fairness, they do count). And what would be in that company? More Tacs? Or maybe another vet company?

The proper reason there's 10 companies in a Chapter is probably because it is a nice, round number.

But they don't because the Codex mentions Battle Brothers, which the Scouts are not. And the best choice would be another Battle Company, which should just be 6th CO and shift the rest down by one. And Chapters already have more than 1000 men at full strength, they have around atleast 1200 counting Commanders, Command Squads, Honor Guard, Apothecaries, Librarians and Chaplains and not including any excess Scouts a chapter may possess.

The standing forces of a space marine chapter should never be 'full strength' save maybe at their founding ceremony, whatever that looks like.

That said, the common figure of '1000' feels like a quick estimation based on the breakdown: 10 squads, 10 units of 10-man marine squads of various kinds, but we already know that doesn't really account for the total organizational structure of a chapter...

On top of that, you have the chaplains, captains, and apothecaries- one of each per company (30 men), the librarius (number varies), the armoury (>100, at least one for every rhino used by the other companies, plus land speeders, plus predators, plus land raiders, stormtalons, stormravens etc forever, plus the techmarines proper), every brother interred in a dreadnought if you count them (varies), the honour guard (10?), and the chapter master himself.

So even if you don't count the scouts, a space marine chapter at capacity does have more than 1000 astartes in it. Your hypothetical chapter would be well advised to take this as an opportunity to reconsider moving some marines out of the reserve companies and into the motor pool.

Hahahahaha. "You have to stay at 1000 marines because we never want another Horus Heresy!"

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hahahahaha. "You have to stay at 1000 marines because we never want another Horus Heresy!"

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

I suspect the Codex never said "1000 marines" I suspect that's a simplification. rather the codex says...

"A space Marine Chapter shalt doth consist of ye 10 companies, of which the first shalt be a veteran first company, the 2nd through 5th shalt be battle companies consisting of 6 tatical squads *see appendix 12 paragrah 9 subsection 8 for definition of tatical squad* 2 assault squads, and 2 devestator squads. the remaining companies shalt be reserve companies following the format as descrivbed in appendix 12 paragraph 9 subsection 9. except for the 10th which shalt consist of the scouts!"


in other words rather then specify a maximum number it lays out the orginization, that, pratically speaking, has a rough approximate limit

If the Chapter doesn't lose any Marines for 20 years they deserve to be excommunicated and sent on a punitive crusade, for clearly they haven't been doing their duty to the Emperor properly by engaging His foes in the most dangerous warzones.
In other words, this scenario would never happen because a Chapter is constantly engaged in warfare and constantly losing men all the time. In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hahahahaha. "You have to stay at 1000 marines because we never want another Horus Heresy!"

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

Haha, while not to that extent, SM chapters probably do have large amounts of auxiliary units. SM ships are described as having a complement of several hundred chapter serfs (in addition to servitors), who perform various functions as well as defend the ships from boarding actions. And that's just for single ships. They're also used for defending fortress-monasteries. This is quite interesting:

"Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action – even without the support of their genetically modified lords."

They could simply keep excess recruits at that stage, as they do not count towards the 1000-man limit (though that's probably almost never necessary with the constant fighting).

But yea, a tank driver army would be epic I guess that's how the DA go about their "legion building."

Said it before, I'll say it again,
There are 1001 Fully power armoured Astartes in the Ultramarines, with the tenth company not counting as Astartes because they're scouts.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hahahahaha. "You have to stay at 1000 marines because we never want another Horus Heresy!"

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

Haha, while not to that extent, SM chapters probably do have large amounts of auxiliary units. SM ships are described as having a complement of several hundred chapter serfs (in addition to servitors), who perform various functions as well as defend the ships from boarding actions. And that's just for single ships. They're also used for defending fortress-monasteries. This is quite interesting:

"Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action – even without the support of their genetically modified lords."

They could simply keep excess recruits at that stage, as they do not count towards the 1000-man limit (though that's probably almost never necessary with the constant fighting).

But yea, a tank driver army would be epic I guess that's how the DA go about their "legion building."

Honestly, I'd be surprised if most Space Marine Chapters didn't have 50,000 "Chapter Serfs" to act as a mobile Imperial Guard force.

They could press some of the highest ranking Veterans and Captains into the Honour Guard, if they deserve. The UM for example have 3 times what a normal chapter does (27 per 5th Ed Codex, and Calgar allowed you to field 3 squads instead of the usual 1 for CM or Pedro). They could train 10 of the new arrivals as Apothecaries, 10 as Chaplains, assuming 10 or so are sufficiently powerful psykers to become Librarians, send 10 off to Mars to become Techmarines, there's 50 taken care of already. Another 50 are sent to become dedicated drivers and fleet based assets. There's 100 dealt with. The remaining 100 are just wrapped into the Scout Company.

In the case of the Ultramarines, you could ship a particularly gifted set of newbies off to the Honour Company, there's about 10 more dealt with.

I've always been of the opinion that the '1000 marines' is just Battle Brothers, as others have said, there's the armoury, Librarius, Apothecarion, fleet etc. These will take up more men.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Hahahahaha. "You have to stay at 1000 marines because we never want another Horus Heresy!"

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

I suspect the Codex never said "1000 marines" I suspect that's a simplification. rather the codex says...

"A space Marine Chapter shalt doth consist of ye 10 companies...

Here is what it says in Insignium Astartes:

"Of the remaining Companies the Codex states that eight shall be divided into the 'Companies of Battle' and the 'Companies of Reserve'. Again the ancient tome is not clear about how many of each type of Company there should be or rather the various copies of the Codex do not agree on this point.

"Battle Companies comprise a mix of squad designations, usually six Tactical Squads, two Assault Squads and two Devastator Squads. This can vary however and some Chapters may organise include more or less Assault and Devastator Squads but never more than the number of Tactical Squads in the Company."

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

"But Inquisitor, we ARE at 1000 marines. We just have 880,000 tank drivers who carry bolt guns and are trained as infantry. Look it has the pretty little cog tooth edge on their groin plates. Definitely tank drivers."

has there ever been a case of a Marine chapter being CENSORED for breaking the codex? not "mistrusted" not "looked at with suspicion" but CENSORED.

BrianDavion wrote:
has there ever been a case of a Marine chapter being CENSORED for breaking the codex? not "mistrusted" not "looked at with suspicion" but CENSORED.

Penitent crusades happen due to this fairly often, and the Badab War was partially due to old Huron saying "Feth the Codex, I want a Legion."

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
has there ever been a case of a Marine chapter being CENSORED for breaking the codex? not "mistrusted" not "looked at with suspicion" but CENSORED.

Penitent crusades happen due to this fairly often, and the Badab War was partially due to old Huron saying "Feth the Codex, I want a Legion."

Penitent crusades happen fairly often yes, but I can't think of any that where made because a chapter had a battle company too many.

and the Badad war did NOT happen because of Huron saying "feth the codex" it happened because he was refusing his gene tithe.

I always maintained the "fluff" for my Black Templar was that entire squads were "donated" to the inquisition to do with as they please.
Part bribe, part penance and a means to get rid of some of the more "moderate" recruits that survived training.
These guys are particularly bad for their numbers being too high, but no question of taking the fight to the enemy.
Yeah, "stockpiling" troops would be a problem for space marines and would show a lack of "engagement" at keeping enemies at bay.

 Talizvar wrote:
I always maintained the "fluff" for my Black Templar was that entire squads were "donated" to the inquisition to do with as they please.
Part bribe, part penance and a means to get rid of some of the more "moderate" recruits that survived training.
These guys are particularly bad for their numbers being too high, but no question of taking the fight to the enemy.
Yeah, "stockpiling" troops would be a problem for space marines and would show a lack of "engagement" at keeping enemies at bay.

I also suspect the only way to effectivly stockpile while maintaining a normal rate of operations would be to withhold your gene seed tithe.

BrianDavion wrote:

I also suspect the only way to effectivly stockpile while maintaining a normal rate of operations would be to withhold your gene seed tithe.

The tithe is only 5%. 20 marines instead of 19 isn't going to break the bank. What Huron did (besides not tithing, ofc) was absorb another Chapter of the same stock, avoid combat to build even more force, effectively hold several other Chapters as vassals by gifting them equipment and support and trying to found his own little Empire out of the worlds he and his supporters governed and defended. Withholding the planetary tithe of Badab and blocking trade routes throughout the Maelstrom Sector while hoarding resources for himself was a way more serious crime than failing to send in some geneseed.

I also suspect the only way to effectivly stockpile while maintaining a normal rate of operations would be to withhold your gene seed tithe.

Which - over short periods for a major rebuilding operation, chapters are often permitted to do. The administratum and mechanicus got suspicious on that front because it had been going on for too long; if a chapter with good records has been gutted and needs to rebuild 2-3 companies, then a few decades with no submitted tithe is overlooked.

Huron also 'hid' marines on detached duty with the PDF forces.

And yes, '1000' marines is the nominal amount - like the Imperium being 1,000,000 worlds - it's good enough for rough description but is unlikely to ever be 'right'.

I was under the impression (I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere) that the 1,000 Battle Brothers limit doesn't apply to the Scout Company. The High Lords of Terra are only scared of Marines with Power Armor I guess.