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So the new Space Marines Psychic powers are rapidly approaching with the Angels of Death supplement and I find myself interested in seeing these powers come in to play and if they can increase the viability of Blood Angels in a meaningful way.

Obviously the formations are not applicable unless you field 'red marines' instead of Blood Angels, but I'll leave that for a different discussion.

Mostly I am looking at the Librarius Discipline and the Veil of Time power. Running a Librarian with the Relic force staff as an HQ choice with this power gives a marked improvement to the survival of our more choppy units.

A large squad of Death Company with jump packs and an attached Librarian with Gallian's Staff and this power would be very tough to shift unless being hit with a massive amount of low AP firepower. 3+ rerollable armor saves and 5+ FnP would be fairly resistant to most all small arms fire.

Similarly, A squad of Sanguinary Guard would turn into a fairly impressive unit with said Librarian attached, as well as a Sanguinary High Priest. With the power active you'll have Jump infantry with 2+ re-rollable saves with 5+ FnP and all master crafted power weapons on WS:5 platforms with Furious charge and, if part of a Baal Strikeforce, +1 initiative to the charge as well. That could in theory be quite tanky squad that would be able to endure the advance forward to make it to melee with minimal losses unless targeted by a large amount of AP:2/1 firepower. The Priest isn't required per-se but does make the squad more resilient and effective at their job.

It won't stop a Captain Smashfether, or super friends Deathstar, but it does give some extra tools to bring to the table.

Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas on this? Just curious.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Well, other than the fact that BA are terrible at getting powers off, you mean?

Ever offering positive, constructive and thoughtful responses I see.

Please, if you're not going to contribute, just save your time and don't reply at all.

Thanks.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

It's a very good power, but the vanilla marines get a lot more out of it than BA do. They have better psykers, and better units to cast it on.

You admitted yourself that it won't be enough against the units that BA currently can't handle. It's hard not to be bitter about it.

Veil of Time is just as good on BA units toting Invul as it is on SM units. The problem is that SM pay a lot less for those units than BA do. A unit of Hammernators paired with a Librarian ML2 or even Mephiston would do okay with this power. It still sucks that Meph can't get an Invul. That is unless this power tree can get him one.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Veil of Time is just as good on BA units toting Invul as it is on SM units. The problem is that SM pay a lot less for those units than BA do. A unit of Hammernators paired with a Librarian ML2 or even Mephiston would do okay with this power. It still sucks that Meph can't get an Invul. That is unless this power tree can get him one.

As I said, SM have better units to use it with, so they get more benefit from it. Hammernators are so 5th ed now anyway.

Martel732 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Veil of Time is just as good on BA units toting Invul as it is on SM units. The problem is that SM pay a lot less for those units than BA do. A unit of Hammernators paired with a Librarian ML2 or even Mephiston would do okay with this power. It still sucks that Meph can't get an Invul. That is unless this power tree can get him one.

As I said, SM have better units to use it with, so they get more benefit from it. Hammernators are so 5th ed now anyway.

When they have a rerollable 3++ that is difficult to bypass, they might start to see a comeback. Their VVs are cheaper and can get the same benefit too.

BA have very little that can benefit. We might be better off spamming Dreads and buffing them with Technomancy.

......

I'll note, we are not talking about SM or the fact that they have better units to use this power on.

We are, in fact, talking about ways to integrate these new power trees, specifically in regard to Veil of Time, into our Blood Angels armies and how that will increase viability of our specialist units by allowing them to be more effective and make it into assault where we do the most damage on average.

Once again, if you're not going to contribute, please refrain from posting.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Veil of Time is just as good on BA units toting Invul as it is on SM units. The problem is that SM pay a lot less for those units than BA do. A unit of Hammernators paired with a Librarian ML2 or even Mephiston would do okay with this power. It still sucks that Meph can't get an Invul. That is unless this power tree can get him one.

Hammernators are also a good unit to look at for sure. This power would make them VERY resilient, but somewhat limited on movement and threat range. That's why I prefer Sanguinary Guard myself personally. You sacrifice the invulnerable for higher mobility and more opportunity for at-initiative attacks. Trade offs being what they are.

Thanks for the constructive response also. It's appreciated.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

This power does nothing for SG. They'll get popped by AP 2 just like they do now. Since you want to talk about BA units only.

Every game you might steal from Eldar with this will be taken from you by better Imperial lists. I never thought they'd approach the scatterlaser thing by trying to make units be able to just soak them up. It's nuts.

Martel732 wrote:
This power does nothing for SG. They'll get popped by AP 2 just like they do now. Since you want to talk about BA units only.

Every game you might steal from Eldar with this will be taken from you by better Imperial lists. I never thought they'd approach the scatterlaser thing by trying to make units be able to just soak them up. It's nuts.

Yup. SG gain nothing from this. There really aren't any BA exclusive units that get anything from this. FNP isn't a save, otherwise this would be pretty awesome in a Death Company blob.

Plus Death Company are better than Sanguine Guard-bage except against AP3 weaponry (which is awfully specific). So from that standpoint, casting Veil Of Time does good (3+ reroll 5+++). That ain't too shabby. Add in Dante to help soak wounds as well (EW FTW).

At that point, though, why aren't we just using full-on Space Marines? I honestly only see Death Company + Dante making anything out of it.

Right now there are way too many grav and AP2 weapons out there on competitive level. Any effective deathstar or mini-star needs good invuln saves or at least cover(ravenwing) and with invisibility.

Getting drowned in wounds was never DCs problem. It's always been the oodles of low AP shooting. Maybe Sanguinary guard benefits with their 2+, however being that they have no invuln, they still won't be able to make a viable deathstar.

SG against small arms fire and the plethora of scatterlaser shots with a rerollable is great but with no invul they are not really the best candidate for veil. I'd go for a unit with an invul themselves or FNP, preferably both... (again provoking the question " why can't jumppack units jink and why doesn't the BA command squad have access to bikes?")

The other key problem is having a reliable way of rolling for it, as Martel stated Librarians are not the best psychic platforms out there so you would need to spam them to work...

In my mind those are the two questions I'd have to ask before I start trying to roll for it, of course when I get my hands on the book there maybe some more practical powers for BA to use... just my two cents

The only unit in out book that comes stock with an ivul are the termies and they are far from the unique to BA or even worth casting this,power on (aside from maybe hammernators ). FNP isn't technically a save so I don't think Veil applies to FNP.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
The only unit in out book that comes stock with an ivul are the termies and they are far from the unique to BA or even worth casting this,power on (aside from maybe hammernators ). FNP isn't technically a save sAye, it's not a save and not applicable for the veil buff it's just if I were to go to all the effort to throw on that buff I'd like to use it on something that at least has some defence when something ignores it's armour/cover o I don't think Veil applies to FNP.

Aye, it's not a save and not applicable for the veil buff it's just if I were to go to all the effort to throw on that buff I'd like to use it on something that at least has some defense when something ignores it's armour/cover

Ill be spamming Technomancy with my Librarian dreadnoughts in my 100% walker list

What does Technomancy?

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas on this? Just curious.

I've seen in a few places that a note in Angels of Death makes these powers available to all Space Marine chapters, including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. ...

However, the explanations on page 52 and page 107 specifically state that these powers are available only to librarians who have the "Space Marine" faction. Thus, all other chapters in books other than the Adeptus Astartes Space Marines Codex wouldn't get these benefits because they have a different faction.

Did I miss something?

Already spent some time playing with new powers:

Hammernators could be immortal and would still be subpar because of their awful mobility. Now, if one were to ALSO roll up one of several mobility powers, then suddenly they're a force.

The best BA unit built around veil is probably a jump-vanguard vet unit with a few shield-holding bullet-sponges taking the lead and the real wargear in back. With a priest also in you could have a right-proppa deathstar, with it taking 12 wounds or 9 s8+ wounds to down each of the boys in front.

Again, it's no thunderwolf, but until GW gets around to us again, it's about the best we got.

commander dante wrote:
Ill be spamming Technomancy with my Librarian dreadnoughts in my 100% walker list

I like this idea. With Warpmetal Armor, a Librarian Dreadnought becomes 14/13/11, meaning it isn't going to be incredibly easy to bust. That and Reforge will make Librarian Dreadnoughts pretty tough.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Ill be spamming Technomancy with my Librarian dreadnoughts in my 100% walker list

I like this idea. With Warpmetal Armor, a Librarian Dreadnought becomes 14/13/11, meaning it isn't going to be incredibly easy to bust. That and Reforge will make Librarian Dreadnoughts pretty tough.

After running the powers a few times, I'd say unless your list is extremely vehicle-centric, increasing the usefulness of techno a bit, I'd go for fulmination and hope for the 3++. Also the primaris isn't terrible (unlike technomancy,) and the other powers are all pretty useful.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

commander dante wrote:
Ill be spamming Technomancy with my Librarian dreadnoughts in my 100% walker list

I like this idea. With Warpmetal Armor, a Librarian Dreadnought becomes 14/13/11, meaning it isn't going to be incredibly easy to bust. That and Reforge will make Librarian Dreadnoughts pretty tough.

After running the powers a few times, I'd say unless your list is extremely vehicle-centric, increasing the usefulness of techno a bit, I'd go for fulmination and hope for the 3++. Also the primaris isn't terrible (unlike technomancy,) and the other powers are all pretty useful.

Good point. The 3++ would help the Dread a lot more than just a single point of AV. Of course, running two psykers, the Librarian Dreadnought with Fulmination and another Librarian with Technomancy could lead to a 14/13/11 Dread with a 3++...

 psiekier wrote:

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas on this? Just curious.

I've seen in a few places that a note in Angels of Death makes these powers available to all Space Marine chapters, including Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, etc. ...

However, the explanations on page 52 and page 107 specifically state that these powers are available only to librarians who have the "Space Marine" faction. Thus, all other chapters in books other than the Adeptus Astartes Space Marines Codex wouldn't get these benefits because they have a different faction.

Did I miss something?

The seperate Psychic Card set for them contains a separate card that details which factions can use them. BA are on that card.

I'm no BA player, but if you're wanting to get the most out of the new powers, I'd ally in a conclave on jumppacks to tag along with your BA brothers. When rolling for powers try to get the 4++ from Divination, then Veil, then possibly Sanctuary. OR, take Meph + Hammernators + conclave on foot and roll for Veil, Sanctuary (hammerhand would be brutal too) and Electrodisplacement.

It's really hard to build a list around the new powers without using allies. Since you need multiple psykers to have a decent shot at getting the right stuff.

A couple of bike captains with 2+3++ fist/claw would scale pretty well with veil or hammernators and accept they will be useless in some matchups and carry in others.

I suppose taking Fulmination as Mephiston will allow me to get him a coveted 3++ roughly 60% of the time. Not too shabby. The other powers in the Discipline are a little lackluster, but taking Electroshield and then using Sanguine Sword and Force will allow him to wreck face in CC, but still have a pretty viable defense against stuff.