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Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.

Martel732 wrote:
Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.

This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.

It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.

SemperMortis wrote:
How many death stars do you know of that only have 1 model with an invulnerable save?

Gravturions with Draigo?

 Griddlelol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.

This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.

It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.

^^ This. Just to have my tanks be effective I would gladly sacrifice my Infantry.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.

This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.

It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.

^^ This. Just to have my tanks be effective I would gladly sacrifice my Infantry.

That's the path to losing as well.

Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

Please tell me how!

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

I really think the IG should be more about the BALANCE of infantry and tanks/artillery. Much like the armies they are based on they need both to be effective. Tanks/artillery need infantry to take points and to protect them from assault. Infantry need tanks/artillery to do the heavy lifting of damage and to provide mobile cover.

Thats one of the reasons I really liked the idea of the new Armoured Shield formation from the Start Collecting! box set, since it gave you a 4+ cover save for being near the tank. Id be quite happy if they didnt change anything point wise for the Leman Russes, but made that rule universal to all of the different variants. For me this would synergize well with your infantry, let you have an "advancing gunline" with heavy duty ranged Russes hanging out in the back and providing cover for stuff like HWT while the assault russes like demolishers and punishers push the enemy position with infantry in tow claim objectives and ward off attackers.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

Please tell me how!

By being harder to suppress than the tanks. And by having more shots and better orders.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

IG did damage? Where?

It's actually pretty easy to hurt ba.

now the real question, how can Guard beat something rediculous like a flying tetrad, or do we just try to hold objectives?

Genuine argument from my ultramarine friend:

You're immune to grav, so killing you requires me to rebuild my list.

Poor vehicle rules this edition & weak guardsmen aside, one thing I'm not seeing alot of people bring up is:

No reliable dedicated counter assault units in the codex.

Literally. None. Rough riders & Bullgryn/Ogryn are garbage.

Bullgryn cost almost 33% more points base than Wolfen yet lack any of their awesome special rules. Slab shield Bullgryn must take grenade launchers which does not give them any close combat utility. While power mauls +2S is nice, concussive does nothing for them. S10 melee power weapons are their greatest threat & are already hitting at initiative one. One hit is instant death regardless of their 3 wounds.

Ogryns, while slightly cheaper also have garbage melee. Their ripper guns offer no bonus to melee despite doing so in the lore. They should be +1S like in 3rd edition & offer rending.

Ogryn/Bullgryn also have a high armor save. That is acceptable as in most cases they are only wearing shirts or partial makeshift armor. What is not ok, is that their thick skin which is said to shrug off most wounds in the lore is not reflected at all. They should have 4+ FNP.

Lastly, their low leadership basically necessitates a babysitter such as commissar etc bloating their absurd costs even more.

Rough riders are only good for one charge & their lance breaks. Additionally its only AP3. Terrible.

All of the above is a major factor as to why IG is currently terrible. If the gunline is broken & sh*t gets into melee. Its over. Conscripts + priest more often than not only serve to slow your loss, not prevent it.

In all my years of playing guard, I never once cared about having a unit dedicated to counter assault.

 Griddlelol wrote:
In all my years of playing guard, I never once cared about having a unit dedicated to counter assault.

What kind of players are you playing against? Almost half the armies out there can get into assault turn two. In our local meta we either have to deal with drop pods in your face, or 2+ squiggoths loaded up with orks with 15+ nob bikers alongside them & trucks all hitting you at once, or tyranids assaulting turn 1 with genestealer cult shenanigans. How do you even deal with that without allies? Guardsmen bubble wrap only goes so far & sending out sacrificial units ahead to try & tie up the enemy only prolongs your loss.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:
In all my years of playing guard, I never once cared about having a unit dedicated to counter assault.

What kind of players are you playing against? Almost half the armies out there can get into assault turn two. In our local meta we either have to deal with drop pods in your face, or 2+ squiggoths loaded up with orks with 15+ nob bikers alongside them & trucks all hitting you at once, or tyranids assaulting turn 1 with genestealer cult shenanigans. How do you even deal with that without allies? Guardsmen bubble wrap only goes so far & sending out sacrificial units ahead to try & tie up the enemy only prolongs your loss.

The problem is that there are no pod-borne BA left to assault on turn 2. Shooting still rules 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....

IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.

Please tell me how!

By being harder to suppress than the tanks. And by having more shots and better orders.

Harder to suppress? Are we talking about the same Infantry here Martel?

Turn two never felt like a huge deal. At turn two I still have 90% of my units operating at 100%. That squad that wants to assault is usually shot up pretty good, and if they're survivable enough, I can always feed them a unit or two.

Sure I have to concentrate them down, but it's do that, or lose, so I usually pump everything I have into them.

Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...

 Selym wrote:
Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...

It's because once you get to around turn three the Company Command Squad is usually dead, which means the good Orders are gone.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...

It's because once you get to around turn three the Company Command Squad is usually dead, which means the good Orders are gone.

You can keep it alive by hiding it at the back somewhere. It does mean you get less of an area of use though.

"Are we talking about the same Infantry here Martel?"

Yes. Just because you don't understand how to use horde shooting doesn't mean my IG opponents don't. While they are losing badly to Eldar or Tau, they wipe the floor with BA from sheer shots. BA don't have fancy weapons or defenses. Also, it's amazing how much some primaris psykers help. And they aren't even allies.

Martel732 wrote:
"Are we talking about the same Infantry here Martel?"

Yes. Just because you don't understand how to use horde shooting doesn't mean my IG opponents don't. While they are losing badly to Eldar or Tau, they wipe the floor with BA from sheer shots. BA don't have fancy weapons or defenses. Also, it's amazing how much some primaris psykers help. And they aren't even allies.

Oh but I do, and thats the point. Most SM and MEQ armies can remove an IG Infantry horde within a turn or two, long before it can make it into alpha strike range.

BA infantry are largely identical to SA and Vanilla infantry, they arent any less hard to kill. If volume of fire isnt doing it against SW's or Ultras, why would it do so against BA's?

Because volume of fire does work against ultra marine assault marines and grey hunters. What it doesn't work against, wolfstars and centstars, BA can't even field. Volume of fire, especially backed up by misfortune, cuts BA to pieces.

Also, quit letting your opponents list tailor. The IG infantry. becomes a MUCH bigger threat if you don't know to load up on flamers ahead of time. I don't have this luxury, and I struggle HARD against IG, because my lists are full of grav and melta.

And nobody's removing a horde with a 4++ from divination in one turn. Especially with BA.

Martel732 wrote:
Because volume of fire does work against ultra marine assault marines and grey hunters. What it doesn't work against, wolfstars and centstars, BA can't even field. Volume of fire, especially backed up by misfortune, cuts BA to pieces.

Okay, so we can hose the enemy with firepower. If they get within range. And the horde is still alive.

Also, quit letting your opponents list tailor. The IG infantry. becomes a MUCH bigger threat if you don't know to load up on flamers ahead of time. I don't have this luxury, and I struggle HARD against IG, because my lists are full of grav and melta.

I dont. Unfortunately my club works primarily on the principle of arranging games ahead of time so my opponent knows that he will be facing me and he knows that I have IG. There is little that I can do about this - I have tried surprise units, allies and changes but the advantage of these usually only lasts one game or two, at which point my opponent just throws in yet another big buff unit.

And nobody's removing a horde with a 4++ from divination in one turn. Especially with BA.

4++ which one first has to pay through the nose for an overpriced and very fragile psyker for and then pray that they draw/roll said power.

I'd start refusing to play vs those who list tailor. It gives too many advantages to lists that are already unfair.

Your hordes are fine against ba, because ba shooting is awful.

I have run into lists with six primaris psykers. They have powers and dice to get them off. They are not fragile with divination buffs. They guy who runs it almost always wins vs da and lists worse than da.