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I have an Ultramarines army but I am really not sure what works with them. I mean, Blood Angels is fairly straight forward for example as you all have constant furious charge. But Ultramarines really feel like a lame duck army for me. Only their elite units scream good and only one of them has models so that's that. I also have Gulliman but hes neither a combat monster nor a huge or useful army buff. Basically unless I am using Invictari I might as well just be using the base Crusade army list and feel like I am at an immediate disadvantage compared to most of the other legions.

better to go ask in the HH forum bud

9 Quad mortar thudd guns have Guiliman throw interceptor on them for lulz... 60" interceptor blasts or shorter range anti tank stuff? He always looked like a pretty massive support character to me...

And yeah 30k probably is a better forum for it

the HH form would be a good but, but some light tips:

1) Get out of the "bring only the best" mindset of 40k. 30k is moreso about being fluffy rather than being cheesy.
2) With interlocking tactics, you can get some messy combos, so bring some basic tactical squads (15-20 men strong for durability and extra bullets)
3) While he's not the strongest CC primarch, he can certainly hold his own against anything that isn't a leviathan, or other 'better' stabby primarch
4) With army wide Ld: 10 (among their other legion buffs) they are hardly a push over so long as you remember to look at them with a 30k point of view rather than a 40k point of view.

 Brennonjw wrote:
the HH form would be a good but, but some light tips:

1) Get out of the "bring only the best" mindset of 40k. 30k is moreso about being fluffy rather than being cheesy.
2) With interlocking tactics, you can get some messy combos, so bring some basic tactical squads (15-20 men strong for durability and extra bullets)
3) While he's not the strongest CC primarch, he can certainly hold his own against anything that isn't a leviathan, or other 'better' stabby primarch
4) With army wide Ld: 10 (among their other legion buffs) they are hardly a push over so long as you remember to look at them with a 30k point of view rather than a 40k point of view.

Those fluffy armies have quite a big advantage over fluffy Ultramarines.

I have three full squads of twenty tacticals. They tend to amount to cannon fodder and never get their points back.

I ve used Gulliman twice and he basically has his bodyguard shredded by fire and the two times I have used him hes been pounded into the ground by Castallex or Kataphracts. He never made back his points and was pretty embarrassing actually.

They only get army wide leadership 10 on fear tests and roles to regroup. They can still be ran down by sweeping advance and use standard morale unless buffed by a Primarch. Some armies like Word Bearers are basically fearless or like Iron Warriors totally immune to morale for shooting.

Clearly, the best way is to run 10 Suzerains with Guilliman in a Spartan.

And a Pair of Sicarans with Tank Hunter at his flanks, of course.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
the HH form would be a good but, but some light tips:

1) Get out of the "bring only the best" mindset of 40k. 30k is moreso about being fluffy rather than being cheesy.
2) With interlocking tactics, you can get some messy combos, so bring some basic tactical squads (15-20 men strong for durability and extra bullets)
3) While he's not the strongest CC primarch, he can certainly hold his own against anything that isn't a leviathan, or other 'better' stabby primarch
4) With army wide Ld: 10 (among their other legion buffs) they are hardly a push over so long as you remember to look at them with a 30k point of view rather than a 40k point of view.

Those fluffy armies have quite a big advantage over fluffy Ultramarines.

I have three full squads of twenty tacticals. They tend to amount to cannon fodder and never get their points back.

I ve used Gulliman twice and he basically has his bodyguard shredded by fire and the two times I have used him hes been pounded into the ground by Castallex or Kataphracts. He never made back his points and was pretty embarrassing actually.

They only get army wide leadership 10 on fear tests and roles to regroup. They can still be ran down by sweeping advance and use standard morale unless buffed by a Primarch. Some armies like Word Bearers are basically fearless or like Iron Warriors totally immune to morale for shooting.

well, we'd be able to help more if we knew what you frequently faced (as most 'fluffy' armies shouldn't faceroll a 'fluffy' UM list, or any list on average for that matter). the word bearer's 3d6 for leadership isn't game changing, and as long as your not dumb enough to let the gal vorbak charge something expensive, then you should be doing fine. Same goes for the iron warriors: they don't flee as often but you can still get around that pretty easily.

if you're bumping into Castellax, back guilliman up with a dread or two (or p.fist terminators as once they or the dreads get into CC the mechanicum loose most of their strengths) and even then, he should be wounding them on 2's and ignoring their armor save, leaving them with a 6+ invuln for CC. by Kataphracts, do you mean cataphractii terminators? if so, NEVER rush your primarch in alone (unless you are sure you can hold off untill backup comes). he's a 400 point army buff and CC beast IF you support him with another squad

as for base tactics: how are you using your tactical squads? what does your list usually look like? who do you frequently play? how do you usually use your units? there's a lot of questions that need to be answered as 1) it sounds like you've either been playing them out of their element (i.e. trying to outshoot something using a melee squad, etc.) or 2) have had some terrible luck so far. Especially since by their rules: UM are one of the stronger legions with some pretty powerful combos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Clearly, the best way is to run 10 Suzerains with Guilliman in a Spartan.

And a Pair of Sicarans with Tank Hunter at his flanks, of course.

sometimes cheddar =/= best 'cause while he has all of his eggs in 1 basket (and 2 S: 7 baskets next to it) some rapiers or CC squads would laugh at such a 'strong' list.

Moved to correct forum

Their legion rules are built around foot slogging units, due to "Interlocking Tactics". After a unit with the "Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines)" rule shoots and hits a unit, following units with this rule gets to reroll 1's on wounds and pens. This means that a Tac Squad can shoot their bolters at a tank, you roll to hit, and as long as one bolter shot hits the tank you "mark" it. This then means that your heavy weapon and support squads anti-tank weapons now get to reroll any ones to pen.

Ageist infantry and MC's this is even more effective since the bolters at least get a potential to do something, before the heavy and special weapon squads open fire.


The down side is that these rules do not apply to any of their tanks, dreadnoughts or other vehicles since they do not have the "Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines)" rule. Thus their shots do not effect Interlocking Tactics in anyway. I do belive that the Rapiers still benafit from Interlocking Tactics due to their crew having the "Legiones Astartes (Ultramarines)" rule. Basically the ultramarien rules focus on rewarding you for getting as many boots on the ground as you can.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
the HH form would be a good but, but some light tips:

1) Get out of the "bring only the best" mindset of 40k. 30k is moreso about being fluffy rather than being cheesy.
2) With interlocking tactics, you can get some messy combos, so bring some basic tactical squads (15-20 men strong for durability and extra bullets)
3) While he's not the strongest CC primarch, he can certainly hold his own against anything that isn't a leviathan, or other 'better' stabby primarch
4) With army wide Ld: 10 (among their other legion buffs) they are hardly a push over so long as you remember to look at them with a 30k point of view rather than a 40k point of view.

Those fluffy armies have quite a big advantage over fluffy Ultramarines.

I have three full squads of twenty tacticals. They tend to amount to cannon fodder and never get their points back.

I ve used Gulliman twice and he basically has his bodyguard shredded by fire and the two times I have used him hes been pounded into the ground by Castallex or Kataphracts. He never made back his points and was pretty embarrassing actually.

They only get army wide leadership 10 on fear tests and roles to regroup. They can still be ran down by sweeping advance and use standard morale unless buffed by a Primarch. Some armies like Word Bearers are basically fearless or like Iron Warriors totally immune to morale for shooting.

well, we'd be able to help more if we knew what you frequently faced (as most 'fluffy' armies shouldn't faceroll a 'fluffy' UM list, or any list on average for that matter). the word bearer's 3d6 for leadership isn't game changing, and as long as your not dumb enough to let the gal vorbak charge something expensive, then you should be doing fine. Same goes for the iron warriors: they don't flee as often but you can still get around that pretty easily.

if you're bumping into Castellax, back guilliman up with a dread or two (or p.fist terminators as once they or the dreads get into CC the mechanicum loose most of their strengths) and even then, he should be wounding them on 2's and ignoring their armor save, leaving them with a 6+ invuln for CC. by Kataphracts, do you mean cataphractii terminators? if so, NEVER rush your primarch in alone (unless you are sure you can hold off untill backup comes). he's a 400 point army buff and CC beast IF you support him with another squad

as for base tactics: how are you using your tactical squads? what does your list usually look like? who do you frequently play? how do you usually use your units? there's a lot of questions that need to be answered as 1) it sounds like you've either been playing them out of their element (i.e. trying to outshoot something using a melee squad, etc.) or 2) have had some terrible luck so far. Especially since by their rules: UM are one of the stronger legions with some pretty powerful combos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Clearly, the best way is to run 10 Suzerains with Guilliman in a Spartan.

And a Pair of Sicarans with Tank Hunter at his flanks, of course.

sometimes cheddar =/= best 'cause while he has all of his eggs in 1 basket (and 2 S: 7 baskets next to it) some rapiers or CC squads would laugh at such a 'strong' list.

The Suzerains butcher anything other than on intiative AP2 quite nicely. And I was talking about 2000 points, so not even a large game of HH.

If you want a fluffy list for the Ultramarines, the Logos Loctora is the way to go. Three large Tactical Squads, your Master of Signals and Praetor (or some kind of Centurion if you are running Guilliman(well, not a support officer)), some Heavy Weapons squads, throw in some Dreads, and Drown them in a Blue Tide, as the Ultramarines do in the fluff. Nothing is really 'not fluffy' to include in an Ultramarines army, but the core should be built around a large number of infantry.

If you want some cheese, Guilliman in a Flare Shielded, Armoured Ceramited Spartan with Suzerains to drive forward works. Give them a Chaplain and/or a Forge Lord with Rad Grenades. Excessive Grav is about the only thing that will make you sad when driving that; but for the most part, you can survive long enough to get close enough that the Spartan dying is of minor concern.

The only Primarchs that stand up to Guilliman are an Angron that charged, a Fulgrim you fail to keep concussed, and Horus. The rest of them die. If you get the charge you should be able to kill any of their Retinues.

Yeah, Ultras are a rather strong Legion. Their skills revolve around spamming infantry, MSU works rather well with Ultras.
Guilliman, whilst not as much of a beast as Angron or a buffy as Alpharius, is very much a jack of all trades, and can reliably beat down all but the strongest Primarchs.
Suzerains are very good as a retinue, and the Fulmentarii are a good backfield unit, in many ways better than the Iron Warrior equivalent.

Rapiers and Infantry will be rather good for you here, and a strong block of Breachers would look super fitting too.

I almost always fight an Iron Warriors gunline army. Although its a very flexible force with a strong reserve of Cataphracts in a storm eagle. He also has a few other assault units like destroyers. So usually I get outshot and then either crushed by a counter assault if I charge him or with his assault units landing among mine.

I am also having a game against Night Lords on Sunday which is a much more tough game against an outflanking force with lots of terror squads and kataphracts.


No I never have Gulliman on his own. In both cases he had a ten man terminator squad with him and in both cases they got shot to death by massed fire and destroyer weapons.

I see a couple of advantages running Ultras in HH.

First, Guilliman. Hes good in combat but had a low attack number. At 2000 points, run him in a Dreadclaw with a unit of some-kind (I like Suzerains, big surprise). He's too much to also run an expensive assault ramp (Phobos, Spartan, Storm Eagle).

One of the other UM benefits of running RG is his ability to confer Implacable advance (ie scoring) to a unit type. I take Contemptors. Couple that with his other ability to "turn on" Suzerain's and Termies as troop types and you can make a 2000 point list with RG, an assault ramp and EIGHT scoring units.

Ive heard having scoring units in your army is good thing.

From what I see UM legion specials are good but thats my thoughts on it.

They have on initiative AP 2 CCW thats pretty solid and their special units are good as well.

Think its just a matter of adjusting your tactics to your meta.

Personally Im not a fan of Primarchs in games its pretty much one or the other player falling back on the super powered unit crutch IMO.

They can be defeated by a force without a primarch but a primarch with a big body guard/tough body guard unit is a super/super tough deathstart to try to bring down at 2k or less from what Ive seen.

As you can often have the primarch walk in front tanking most hits and only giving out D hits and other nasty hits to the bodyguard. Ive seen alot of players not set their units up right esp with all the 2+ save stuff in 30k. You can reduce losses alot with just a good set up with the right models taking the hits and using look out sir to take the hits you dont want on the main guys.

well, it's a good thing you're not allowed to bring LoWs in games under 2k points

Primarchs are fun, but they are a lot like flare shielded spartans: the uninitiated fear them much more than they should

14 responses, and not one reply of "as meat shields?"

Shame on you Dakka.

 Azreal13 wrote:
14 responses, and not one reply of "as meat shields?"

Shame on you Dakka.

Nah. That's what the 4th Legion is for.

You think the smurfs have lame duck legion rules? Look at the Iron Warriors rules. They look like a diluted mix of Death Guard and Iron Hands.

Granted their RoW makes up for it a little bit but the Warsmith tax is annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also sorry to double post but you really should just pick what legion you like. I think the HH Ultramarines really have some wonderfull sculpts and upgrade packs that make up for how Vanilla they have become in regular 40k.

Its all about the fluff my man, read the books and I am sure you will find a Legion that represents you the best.

 Nurgle wrote:
You think the smurfs have lame duck legion rules? Look at the Iron Warriors rules. They look like a diluted mix of Death Guard and Iron Hands.

Granted their RoW makes up for it a little bit but the Warsmith tax is annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also sorry to double post but you really should just pick what legion you like. I think the HH Ultramarines really have some wonderfull sculpts and upgrade packs that make up for how Vanilla they have become in regular 40k.

Its all about the fluff my man, read the books and I am sure you will find a Legion that represents you the best.

You think the warriors have lame duck legion rules? Look at the Salamanders rules. They are literally Death Guard -1 not that I mind, mind you

100% agree on your second point, though I would like to point out that UM rules can be super effective, but you can't really play small, elite armies using their rules as all of their stuff relies on multiple units working together.

 Brennonjw wrote:

 Nurgle wrote:
You think the smurfs have lame duck legion rules? Look at the Iron Warriors rules. They look like a diluted mix of Death Guard and Iron Hands.

Granted their RoW makes up for it a little bit but the Warsmith tax is annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also sorry to double post but you really should just pick what legion you like. I think the HH Ultramarines really have some wonderfull sculpts and upgrade packs that make up for how Vanilla they have become in regular 40k.

Its all about the fluff my man, read the books and I am sure you will find a Legion that represents you the best.

You think the warriors have lame duck legion rules? Look at the Salamanders rules. They are literally Death Guard -1 not that I mind, mind you

100% agree on your second point, though I would like to point out that UM rules can be super effective, but you can't really play small, elite armies using their rules as all of their stuff relies on multiple units working together.

Look at the Dark Angels rules, If they aren't scraping the bottom of the barrel, nothing is.

One popular tactic I've heard of with UM is to mech up. Use your combi-bolters on the rhinos to grant your Legion bonuses to your disembarked unit.

LOLz....saying Salamanders have bad rules...they are awesome if you play to their specials. Me and my friends think they are one of the better legions from looking over the rules.

My buddy plays only salamanders and they are good, very hard to beat.

ignoring Fear plus the re-rolled morale dice is huge they are almost fearless--way better than DG rule where you only ignore fear.

Not to mention the bonus on flamer weapons and reduced str when using flamer weapons against them...think how much this nerfs DG or any other force using any amount of flame weapons against them...not to mention getting hit by salamanders squads with flamers is almost always a ton of wounds you have to save since their standard flamers are STR 5.

Then you grab their Rite of War as well which gives all their vehicles a 5+ vs melta/plasma---which equals most vehicles killing weapons in many armies, and allows the salamander player to mastercraft all their metlas for free.....

So ya...Salamanders are very good, very good indeed compared to many if not most other legions....and their primarch is awesome as well.

chaos45 wrote:
LOLz....saying Salamanders have bad rules...they are awesome if you play to their specials. Me and my friends think they are one of the better legions from looking over the rules.

My buddy plays only salamanders and they are good, very hard to beat.

ignoring Fear plus the re-rolled morale dice is huge they are almost fearless--way better than DG rule where you only ignore fear. Salamanders also have some serious shenanigans done to runs and charges, AS WELL as a huge hit to their sweeping advance rolls (DG only have a -1 to sweeping advance)

Not to mention the bonus on flamer weapons and reduced str when using flamer weapons against them...think how much this nerfs DG or any other force using any amount of flame weapons against them...not to mention getting hit by salamanders squads with flamers is almost always a ton of wounds you have to save since their standard flamers are STR 5.

Then you grab their Rite of War as well which gives all their vehicles a 5+ vs melta/plasma---which equals most vehicles killing weapons in many armies, and allows the salamander player to mastercraft all their metlas for free.....

So ya...Salamanders are very good, very good indeed compared to many if not most other legions....and their primarch is awesome as well.

DG ignore fear AND pinning checks. As for the flamers, it doesn't really nerf DG as much as it simply hits flamers, if anything DG mitigate this compared to other legions by giving their flamers shred. Their RoWs are Cool, but that RoW which bans running, deepstrike, fortifications, and limits you to a single console (champion) (also, in truth melta is rare in 30k and who is shooting vehicles with plasma ). It's not much compared to the DG RoW that also bans running and deepstrike, but still allows consoles, fortifications, AND gives everyone rad grenades. AND salamanders can't play with destroyers or moritats OR phosphex.

Yes, they have some damn cool special squads/units and Vulkan is pretty badass. Pyroclasts are a 5-man flamer/crappy-melta(6" range boo :() support squad in artificer armour, the terminators are neat (mainly 'cause shields), and cassian is silly.

Do they have good rules? Well, yeah, they are just slightly worse Death Guard. Better rules than most legions? No, I wouldn't say that

@Farseer Anath'lan Eh, I wouldn't say Dark Angels are bad until we see more of their special units. As they stand, they are the 'jack of all trades' legion that they were in the fluff (And one of the only other legions that can rad-spam )

Guess you forget the WB special dreadnought has STR 8 Plasma lol....also the Salamander RoW works against melta bombs to something you only get 1 attack with.....

Personally I think DG suck compared to other legions and why I went all in on my WB first cause I can paint them red and easily double tap them for Khorne type Chaos force in 40k as well if I want.

Not to mention plasma preds are really good in 30k....

you seem to forget plasma works well on Rhinos and smart players will still be bringing the armored boxes...so getting them a 5+ save against plasma/melta is awesome.

The upgrade to DG scythes made them abit better but still the -1 init means you could die in a challenged before you get to swing unfortunately. shred offset by gets hot as well lets not forget.....dangerous terrain is a laughable bonus I see it rarely come up in most games.

Mileage various by player and meta I guess....but despite the drawbacks the salamander RoW is good you just box everyone up or put them in flying transports and gun it forward then melt face with melta/flamers. Seems to work pretty good from what I have seen. Melta is still AP 1 so if you do get that pen its still +2 on the chart to explode things. An free mastercraft means almost all your shots will hit.

chaos45 wrote:
Guess you forget the WB special dreadnought has STR 8 Plasma lol....also the Salamander RoW works against melta bombs to something you only get 1 attack with.....

Personally I think DG suck compared to other legions and why I went all in on my WB first cause I can paint them red and easily double tap them for Khorne type Chaos force in 40k as well if I want.

Not to mention plasma preds are really good in 30k....

you seem to forget plasma works well on Rhinos and smart players will still be bringing the armored boxes...so getting them a 5+ save against plasma/melta is awesome.

The upgrade to DG scythes made them abit better but still the -1 init means you could die in a challenged before you get to swing unfortunately. shred offset by gets hot as well lets not forget.....dangerous terrain is a laughable bonus I see it rarely come up in most games.

Mileage various by player and meta I guess....but despite the drawbacks the salamander RoW is good you just box everyone up or put them in flying transports and gun it forward then melt face with melta/flamers. Seems to work pretty good from what I have seen. Melta is still AP 1 so if you do get that pen its still +2 on the chart to explode things. An free mastercraft means almost all your shots will hit.

great, 1 S: 8 plasma gun. woo. Again: while plasma can hurt vehicles, if you're firing it at vehicles then you either have no better targets or the vehicle is something super light like a rhino. also, while it does work against melta bombs most units that make heavy use of MB have access to multiple for the same price (i.e. breachers get 1 per guy, as do assault squads). I wouldn't make a catch-all statement like you did regarding transports, as 10-men in a rhino will arguably pale in comparison to a 20-man with apothecary (but again, that could be due to your meta containing multiple S: 8+ AP:3 or better large blast weapons). DG power scythes still beat out basically all non-initiative AP: 2 (more so when you add on rad grenades). You also forget the 4+ invuln against poison/fleshbane, re-rolling ALL dangerous terrain checks (upgrading to move through cover with their 1st RoW), immunity to fear and pinning, cover shenanigans with their 2nd right of war, and one of the single most irritating to stab cataphractii squads in the game (always forcing disorganized charges as well as being the only cataphractii in the game who can use a weapon in over watch AND with a great gun for no bonus point cost over regular terminators) backed by a primarch with an amazing shooting phase, and one of the longest charge ranges in the game.

now, enough derailing the thread

the rule of 2 works best for Ultramarines in HH.

2 Suzairin
2 Tacs
2 support
2 FA units of your choice
2 heavy support sqauds

Then if points allow, fill the rest up with whatever you please

OH! as 1d4chan points out, something like 2 or 3 units of minimum sized recon squads with snipers could be effective for ultramaines simply to just paint units for your big hitter squads (i.e. shoot your snipers at a land raider so it is marked for your lascannons)

 Brennonjw wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
LOLz....saying Salamanders have bad rules...they are awesome if you play to their specials. Me and my friends think they are one of the better legions from looking over the rules.

My buddy plays only salamanders and they are good, very hard to beat.

ignoring Fear plus the re-rolled morale dice is huge they are almost fearless--way better than DG rule where you only ignore fear. Salamanders also have some serious shenanigans done to runs and charges, AS WELL as a huge hit to their sweeping advance rolls (DG only have a -1 to sweeping advance)

Not to mention the bonus on flamer weapons and reduced str when using flamer weapons against them...think how much this nerfs DG or any other force using any amount of flame weapons against them...not to mention getting hit by salamanders squads with flamers is almost always a ton of wounds you have to save since their standard flamers are STR 5.

Then you grab their Rite of War as well which gives all their vehicles a 5+ vs melta/plasma---which equals most vehicles killing weapons in many armies, and allows the salamander player to mastercraft all their metlas for free.....

So ya...Salamanders are very good, very good indeed compared to many if not most other legions....and their primarch is awesome as well.

DG ignore fear AND pinning checks. As for the flamers, it doesn't really nerf DG as much as it simply hits flamers, if anything DG mitigate this compared to other legions by giving their flamers shred. Their RoWs are Cool, but that RoW which bans running, deepstrike, fortifications, and limits you to a single console (champion) (also, in truth melta is rare in 30k and who is shooting vehicles with plasma ). It's not much compared to the DG RoW that also bans running and deepstrike, but still allows consoles, fortifications, AND gives everyone rad grenades. AND salamanders can't play with destroyers or moritats OR phosphex.

Yes, they have some damn cool special squads/units and Vulkan is pretty badass. Pyroclasts are a 5-man flamer/crappy-melta(6" range boo :() support squad in artificer armour, the terminators are neat (mainly 'cause shields), and cassian is silly.

Do they have good rules? Well, yeah, they are just slightly worse Death Guard. Better rules than most legions? No, I wouldn't say that

@Farseer Anath'lan Eh, I wouldn't say Dark Angels are bad until we see more of their special units. As they stand, they are the 'jack of all trades' legion that they were in the fluff (And one of the only other legions that can rad-spam )

Dark angels are easily top tier in legions at the mo, Ironwing are very good at the moment, I'm getting rewarded for meching up, something I planned to do anyway, the +1 to wound at 12" or less make even bolters brutal, add CCW to your units, and your hitting marines on a 3+ due to the legion trait, free calabanite warblades, terranic greatswords, plasma repeaters, all these make dark angels excellent at both ranged and CC, I'm going to add some Heavy bolter rapiers to my force, chuck the molecular acid rounds on them and go hunting.

Havent tried Ravenwing protocol yet though.

Yeah, I'm not a DA player, but their rites and gear look awfully good. You can't make judgments based only on a legion's LA rules or their special units.

Besides, something one side chooses out of the CAL can be a bigger influence on a given game than anything legion-related anyway.

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, I'm not a DA player, but their rites and gear look awfully good. You can't make judgments based only on a legion's LA rules or their special units.

Besides, something one side chooses out of the CAL can be a bigger influence on a given game than anything legion-related anyway.

Well, they were discussing LA rules only, and based on that, the DA are sparse and not very good indeed.
I also disagree that DA are Jack of All Trades. Their rites are good, but extremely restrictive and specialised.
Their wargear looks good, but is too restrictive and some is not-quite-good enough.
I'll also say DA are not top tier. Alright, but nowhere near.

I'll stop derailing now.

 Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Yeah, I'm not a DA player, but their rites and gear look awfully good. You can't make judgments based only on a legion's LA rules or their special units.

Besides, something one side chooses out of the CAL can be a bigger influence on a given game than anything legion-related anyway.

Well, they were discussing LA rules only, and based on that, the DA are sparse and not very good indeed.
I also disagree that DA are Jack of All Trades. Their rites are good, but extremely restrictive and specialised.
Their wargear looks good, but is too restrictive and some is not-quite-good enough.
I'll also say DA are not top tier. Alright, but nowhere near.

I'll stop derailing now.

I disagree, 15 games in so far and 15 wins against some very competitive 30k armies, but I know my word doesn't mean squat on the tinternet, so I think ill post some bet reps, vidoes of course.

For me its all about taking advantage of what they offer, and the 3+ to hit with blades is nothing to sniff at, 2 conbi stasis in a terminator unit or on a tac sarge means I'm hitting those elites on a 3+ most of the time, plasma repeaters in rhino are also really good, frags wound on a 4+, volkite chargers on a 2+, it all adds up when combined with the protocalls, the terranic greatsword is pure death to anything with a 3+ and multi wounds, calab blades are also pure gravy, for the same points as a power sword I'm getting +1 str, stasis missiles on my heavy support squad are also great, then we get the borderline broken molecular acid rounds, they SHRED elite units, 2+ to wound was good enough, but if you get that ap 1/2, things die real fast.