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Well I paid the €25 and got him to celebrate 30 years of Space Marines. It is, after all, something unique. Three decades of an IP that defined my adolescence. It does feel a bit more special than the 25 year anniversary we had a couple years ago, and probably will feel more unique than the 35 year anniversary we will be having in 2021, even if that anniversary includes a far more awesome looking model. I have a thing for round numbers. Then again, the back of the box reads "In 1985, Games Workshop released the first ever Imperial Space Marine", so the 30 Year Anniversary was actually a year ago and GW are a bunch of lazy sods triggering my OCD.
Also, when you realize €25 is the price for normal Space Marine HQ clampacks, it doesnt really feel like GW is ripping you off more than they are already doing
The fact that this time around we get the mini for €3 cheaper and arent stuck with a pre-molded Crimson Fist guy is an improvement, despite us losing the big, scenic base and something cool like a big banner. The rules are an additional bonus.
The way I see it, in friendlies you need to have the permission of your opponent to be able to use this mini. Kinda like how he informs you before showing up with a Lord of War. Regarding tourneys the debate is settled anyway by the TO.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/04/16 11:25:55
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Grizzyzz wrote: Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.
That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.
SJ
To some degree that is what any game is no? MTG for example, not everyone can afford the <insert expensive card> of the current standard, so the players that compete will be buying those and others won't.
I am 100% okay with normal proxies, but this is not a normal proxy model, in my opinion anyway.
Grizzyzz wrote: Maybe this is being cynical but personally, things like this are not something that I would be willing to let someone proxy. Let the people who paid the $30 dollars for the model enjoy it; As is its intent.
That's a "pay to win" argument, as in "those that pay for it can use it". If anyone can use it with simple conversion, it's no longer pay to win, just a personal choice.
SJ
To some degree that is what any game is no? MTG for example, not everyone can afford the <insert expensive card> of the current standard, so the players that compete will be buying those and others won't.
I am 100% okay with normal proxies, but this is not a normal proxy model, in my opinion anyway.
Would you be mad if i brought this?
I'd cross out the word 'Unique' on the rules sheet so you could use both if you wanted .
I'm actually kinda disappointed they only updated one model. I expected a full 5 man squad. Would have gladly paid Sternguard/Terminator Prices for the squad, even if it was just cosmetic.
However I'm highly skeptical of the "limited edition" aspect of this marine, as GW has been re-releasing a LOT of "limited edition" models as of late (the Solaq captain, the Terminator Captain, Krom, Karleen, etc) so I wouldn't be surprised if we see him again down the road somewhere a la "Armor through the Ages" type box.
As for letting people proxy him, I'd allow it if they allow me the priviledge too (assuming I was playing with a valid marine army). All in all it's a straight upgrade to either a tactical marine or a devastator marine (not quite assault marines as he lacks a jump pack upgrade, so he might actually be a detriment to that squad depending on the loadout) that isn't holding another special weapon.
Gwar! wrote:Huh, I had no idea Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines posted on Dakka. Hi Graham McNeillm Dav Torpe and Pete Haines!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can I have an Autograph!
Kanluwen wrote:
Hell, I'm not that bothered by the Stormraven. Why? Because, as it stands right now, it's "limited use".When it's shoehorned in to the Codex: Space Marines, then yeah. I'll be irked.
When I'm editing alot, you know I have a gakload of homework to (not) do.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: However I'm highly skeptical of the "limited edition" aspect of this marine, as GW has been re-releasing a LOT of "limited edition" models as of late (the Solaq captain, the Terminator Captain, Krom, Karleen, etc) so I wouldn't be surprised if we see him again down the road somewhere a la "Armor through the Ages" type box.
Those models were never billed as limited edition, they were very careful on the wording there that it was the box that was a limited release.
As for proxying, I think I'd play it by ear. If someone asked if I minded, and they clearly weren't out to waac, I'd be fine. If they were, or assumed that they could use it without checking first, I might not be so easy going. I get that it is a pricey hobby and sometimes le stuff has to be missed, and whilst I'm all for inclusivity, I also don't want to have to endure any chips on shoulders or sentiments of entitlement. That said, if I felt that way about the opponent that I'd say no to the proxy, I'd more likely not actually play them at all...
JamesY wrote: I took the plunge and picked one up. He'll go nicely with my converted beaky sternguard unit.
Sternguard are Veterans, not "Space Marines".....
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Local TO has already said you have to have the figure to use the rules.
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
Just wait for the recasts.... Cheap ones be obvious mind. If you have orig metal I'm sure they won, t mind.....
I've got real one on order, its looks great and has fun rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/16 20:23:31
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
The original metal one isn't all that rare. Particularly since he was offered as a redemption prize in the Skullz program. He pops up in a reasonable number of old miniature collections.
insaniak wrote: The original metal one isn't all that rare. Particularly since he was offered as a redemption prize in the Skullz program. He pops up in a reasonable number of old miniature collections.
You ever see one, grab him and message me. I'll paypal ya and be eternally grateful!
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
Matthew wrote: Does anyone know what codices may take him? Only Space Marines, or Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves?
Also, how will this work with proxies?
I would have thought all sm codices except Gk. Proxying is up to both players to agree upon.
Since he has the Chapter Tactics special rule, RAW, he can only be used by Codex: Space Marines. My FLGS, however, has house-ruled that BA, DA, and SW have Chapter Tactics BA, DA, and SW respectively, so we would allow it to be used by them. This is 100% house-ruled, though.
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress 2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
If I wanted to make an issue of it, a simple question of where did you get the rules from? should be enough to not allow you to play it in a tournament. Sure you made a really cool proxy of him, but let's see your official rules on the model.
If I wanted to make an issue of it, a simple question of where did you get the rules from? should be enough to not allow you to play it in a tournament. Sure you made a really cool proxy of him, but let's see your official rules on the model.
Well that's up to the tourney to mandate having an official rules source instead of simply having a copy printed out.
If I wanted to make an issue of it, a simple question of where did you get the rules from? should be enough to not allow you to play it in a tournament. Sure you made a really cool proxy of him, but let's see your official rules on the model.
They don't require the physical data slate, only a clear and concise print out or "scan" of it
Matthew wrote: Does anyone know what codices may take him? Only Space Marines, or Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves?
Also, how will this work with proxies?
I would have thought all sm codices except Gk. Proxying is up to both players to agree upon.
Since he has the Chapter Tactics special rule, RAW, he can only be used by Codex: Space Marines. My FLGS, however, has house-ruled that BA, DA, and SW have Chapter Tactics BA, DA, and SW respectively, so we would allow it to be used by them. This is 100% house-ruled, though.
I don't think RAW it does say that at all. The rule says that one space marine can be replaced with an imperial space marine. Do sw, da, and ba have space marines? Yes. So you can swap him. You could argue at that point that the model doesn't benefit from its chapter tactics as it is from a different codex, but either way he's in the list.
If I wanted to make an issue of it, a simple question of where did you get the rules from? should be enough to not allow you to play it in a tournament. Sure you made a really cool proxy of him, but let's see your official rules on the model.
They don't require the physical data slate, only a clear and concise print out or "scan" of it
No, but those rules are for the imperial space marine model, so you could demand that they need it, outside of him there is no such thing as a space marine with a disintegrator gun. If someone kitbashed a good model and asked if I minded, I wouldn't. If someone put down a conversion and copied rules and told me they were using it, then that would be a different matter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/17 12:11:11
The issue with that oine of thinking is that only those that can afford to pay to win can have the good things. Requiring the official model and box set rules sheet in order to field the Imperial Space Marine is a way of limiting this option to only those that had the money and the free time to snag one. It's the mind set of only the elite should playing this game, the riff-raff can go play X-Wing.
By allowing everyone the option to play an Imperial Space Marine if they want via a suitable conversion, printed rules, and a legal squad to put it in, the game is more accessable and less douchy.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: The issue with that oine of thinking is that only those that can afford to pay to win can have the good things. Requiring the official model and box set rules sheet in order to field the Imperial Space Marine is a way of limiting this option to only those that had the money and the free time to snag one. It's the mind set of only the elite should playing this game, the riff-raff can go play X-Wing.
By allowing everyone the option to play an Imperial Space Marine if they want via a suitable conversion, printed rules, and a legal squad to put it in, the game is more accessable and less douchy.
SJ
To an extent I don't disagree with you, and have said that I'd personally be happy to allow it if asked. My point was that opponents don't actually have to accept proxying, and that a little courtesy goes a long way. That said, a single infantry figure isn't an issue of paying to win, it's a one off £18 model that has a half decent, but short ranged gun, not a £1240 titan. Suggesting someone is elitist because they show the mildest possible objection to potential proxying in a specific instance isn't very fair, and is incorrect.
Matthew wrote: Does anyone know what codices may take him? Only Space Marines, or Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Space Wolves?
Also, how will this work with proxies?
I would have thought all sm codices except Gk. Proxying is up to both players to agree upon.
Since he has the Chapter Tactics special rule, RAW, he can only be used by Codex: Space Marines. My FLGS, however, has house-ruled that BA, DA, and SW have Chapter Tactics BA, DA, and SW respectively, so we would allow it to be used by them. This is 100% house-ruled, though.
I don't think RAW it does say that at all. The rule says that one space marine can be replaced with an imperial space marine. Do sw, da, and ba have space marines? Yes. So you can swap him. You could argue at that point that the model doesn't benefit from its chapter tactics as it is from a different codex, but either way he's in the list.
If I wanted to make an issue of it, a simple question of where did you get the rules from? should be enough to not allow you to play it in a tournament. Sure you made a really cool proxy of him, but let's see your official rules on the model.
They don't require the physical data slate, only a clear and concise print out or "scan" of it
No, but those rules are for the imperial space marine model, so you could demand that they need it, outside of him there is no such thing as a space marine with a disintegrator gun. If someone kitbashed a good model and asked if I minded, I wouldn't. If someone put down a conversion and copied rules and told me they were using it, then that would be a different matter.
I would ask you to prove that I had not purchased the model and rules, and was using my scan and a conversion as my model and rules are in a display case at home for show only. The judge would agree and you would fail to do so. End of conversation at that point.
@Pain4Pleasure and so could the game, quite happily. I'll repeat, I have never said I would point blank refuse to allow it myself. I would expect the courtesy of being asked though, as I would for any proxying. If you expect me to have to keep track of what is what in your army, it's not much to ask.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/17 17:03:14
jeffersonian000 wrote: The issue with that oine of thinking is that only those that can afford to pay to win can have the good things. Requiring the official model and box set rules sheet in order to field the Imperial Space Marine is a way of limiting this option to only those that had the money and the free time to snag one. It's the mind set of only the elite should playing this game, the riff-raff can go play X-Wing.
By allowing everyone the option to play an Imperial Space Marine if they want via a suitable conversion, printed rules, and a legal squad to put it in, the game is more accessable and less douchy.
SJ
But the former is what helps keep the game balanced more in the long run. For the reasons you stated (exclusivity, asking price, limited window), very few people will end up getting the model, and therefore very few people in the entire meta will be using one in their armies.
If everyone was allowed to kit-bash an Imperial Marine and print out a grainy .jpg image from google search that shows the rules and field it, EVERYONE would do so because it is like a Black Lotus for the Space Marine army: making it a tiny bit more competitive for no points cost at all. And THAT is a power creep that can be felt everywhere.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/17 17:02:16
Ravenous D wrote: 40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote: GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
2000 l 
2000 l 
2000 l 
1500 l 
1000 l 
1000 l 
Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 
1500 l
- 535pts
40K - 2000pts
HH - 3000pts
- 40 Wounds 
4k 
4k Points
Competition Index
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~2800 points 
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
