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Does it make sense that you would buy a dreadnaught for over 100 points and swap out for this guy, simply because they are both faction Space Marines ? No, that is clearly not the intent.
There is no rule or page number that can explain this, but lets look at some simple reasoning... because that is how GW leaves us to operate.
Lets look at a dread data slate; The name is "Dreadnaught".
Lets look further at a character name on a slate Sargeant Telion is, "Sargeant Telion".
Notice how both of those in their data slate do not reference "Space Marine" as explained in the Imperial marine data slate rule of "One Space Marine in your army may be replaced with Imperial Space Marine at no additional points cost". Cool, so lets look at the Imperial Space Marine data slate.. Name: Imperial Space Marine.
Seems clear so far.. but just in case let us look at the Tactical squad data slate. Here you will find names, "Space Marine", "Space Marine Sargeant", "Veteran Sargeant", each with their own profile.
Given the clear intention of GW to use the dataslate profile name which is unique per profile throughout all their rules, it would continue to be their intention that you would be using that here as well. Thus, this special marine Imperial Space Marine could replace a Space Marine in a tactical squad, but not a Space marine Sargeant nor a Veteran Sargeant
As for Assault squads and Devastators, I can not recall their data slates at the moment. If they use Space Marine as their profile name, then you would be able to substitute one of them, but again not their sargeants.
Insaniak is making a good point, however. Every model is a "spacemarine" in some way, bar the servitors. It depends on the definition you are going for.
From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
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Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
Could be, but the profile name on the dataslate is Imperial Space Marine
Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
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nosferatu1001 wrote: I wasnt disagreeing.
I was agreeing that it was an assumption. A likely correct one, but still an assumption.
I was responding to your "it could easily be the faction" bit. The sentence doesn't make sense if it's the faction, so I don't think it actually could easily be the faction.
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Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Except the Preferred Enemy rule states that it can be applied to a faction. Don't use straw men. They burn down easily.
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Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Except the Preferred Enemy rule states that it can be applied to a faction. Don't use straw men. They burn down easily.
except it doesn't, you might want to reread the rule and rethink your answer.
Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Are you talking about a specific case of 'Preferred Enemy: Space Marines'? If its the one from Codex Chaos Space Marines then the codex clarifies exactly what is covered (Designer's Note, pg. 28).
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
sirlynchmob wrote: so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Preferred Enemy generally lists the Faction in parenthesis. Completely different situation. I can't think of a specific instance where a model has a version of Preferred Enemy that targets other models by name.
They may have used "Space Marine(s)" to mean a variety of things, but we're told that we can replace "One Space Marine in your army...". Which of these makes sense?
1. "One Space Marine (model's name) in your army can be replaced..."
2. "One Space Marine (unit's name) in your army can be replaced..."
3. "One Space Marine (faction's name) in your army can be replaced..."
My contention is that context pretty clearly shows that only option 1 makes sense.
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Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Are you talking about a specific case of 'Preferred Enemy: Space Marines'? If its the one from Codex Chaos Space Marines then the codex clarifies exactly what is covered (Designer's Note, pg. 28).
Right, and if you use that as precedence, think of all the fun places Bob (my new name for the 2016 guy) can be used.
sirlynchmob wrote: so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Preferred Enemy generally lists the Faction in parenthesis. Completely different situation. I can't think of a specific instance where a model has a version of Preferred Enemy that targets other models by name.
They may have used "Space Marine(s)" to mean a variety of things, but we're told that we can replace "One Space Marine in your army...". Which of these makes sense?
1. "One Space Marine (model's name) in your army can be replaced..."
2. "One Space Marine (unit's name) in your army can be replaced..."
3. "One Space Marine (faction's name) in your army can be replaced..."
My contention is that context pretty clearly shows that only option 1 makes sense.
Yes 1 makes sense, it could even be the intent, but is it RAW? well apparently it's debatable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/19 14:26:52
sirlynchmob wrote: Yes 1 makes sense, it could even be the intent, but is it RAW? well apparently it's debatable.
Everything is debatable.
What isn't debatable is that models have names. This is clearly defined on each datasheet. Calling the power armored dude on a bike model a "Space Marine Biker" has absolute RaW support. Calling him a "Space Marine" is a gamer shorthand with no actual RaW support. It's a fluff based thing. Per the rules, he's a "Space Marine Biker" or a model with the "Space Marines" Faction. The rules wouldn't refer to him as a "Space Marine". That's something only we as gamers do.
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sirlynchmob wrote: Yes 1 makes sense, it could even be the intent, but is it RAW? well apparently it's debatable.
Everything is debatable.
What isn't debatable is that models have names. This is clearly defined on each datasheet. Calling the power armored dude on a bike model a "Space Marine Biker" has absolute RaW support. Calling him a "Space Marine" is a gamer shorthand with no actual RaW support. It's a fluff based thing. Per the rules, he's a "Space Marine Biker" or a model with the "Space Marines" Faction. The rules wouldn't refer to him as a "Space Marine". That's something only we as gamers do.
We as gamers, including those gamers who write the rules, would also consider a space marine biker to be a space marine though.
Also, the basic guy in tac/ass/dev squads is a "space marine" but the faction is "space marines". Not the same and therefore clear that the rule is not referring to the faction.
sirlynchmob wrote: Yes 1 makes sense, it could even be the intent, but is it RAW? well apparently it's debatable.
Everything is debatable.
What isn't debatable is that models have names. This is clearly defined on each datasheet. Calling the power armored dude on a bike model a "Space Marine Biker" has absolute RaW support. Calling him a "Space Marine" is a gamer shorthand with no actual RaW support. It's a fluff based thing. Per the rules, he's a "Space Marine Biker" or a model with the "Space Marines" Faction. The rules wouldn't refer to him as a "Space Marine". That's something only we as gamers do.
We as gamers, including those gamers who write the rules, would also consider a space marine biker to be a space marine though.
Sure, from a fluff standpoint... but not from a rules standpoint. There are pretty explicit rules about how models/units/factions/etc are named.
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Kriswall wrote: From a rules standpoint, every model has a name. We're told that we can swap any one "Space Marine" in the army for the "Imperial Space Marine". Since "Imperial Space Marine" is the new model's name, it's fair to assume that "Space Marine" is the replaced model's name.
"Space Marine Biker" isn't the same as "Space Marine" in the same way that "Marneus Calgar" isn't the same as "Space Marine", so wouldn't be eligible for replacement.
Exactly
The bolded assumption is the key point being made though - while context implies that this is the model name, it could as easily be faction. This is due to GWs insistence on colliding faction, ALE and model names.
If it said "a model with the Space Marines Faction" I would agree in a second. It says "Space Marine". Occam's Razor dictates that it's most likely that the thing being named is being named using its Name and not its Faction. Anything else is a stretch. That the Space Marines Faction shared a similar name with some of the models belonging to that Faction is a coincidence. Replace the Space Marine bit with a different Faction and see if the sentence still makes sense...
"One Space Marine in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
vs.
"One Tau Empire in your army can be replaced with the Imperial Space Marine at..."
Faction simply doesn't make sense in this context.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
AS it's GW, we'll never know their intent, but they've used "space marine" to mean everything listed in their codex previously, so it can be used the same way for the 30th marine.
Are you talking about a specific case of 'Preferred Enemy: Space Marines'? If its the one from Codex Chaos Space Marines then the codex clarifies exactly what is covered (Designer's Note, pg. 28).
Right, and if you use that as precedence, think of all the fun places Bob (my new name for the 2016 guy) can be used.
Its most definitely not a precedent. Its clearly a 'in this instance we mean this' case.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
Correct. Fortunately the rule is Preferred enemy (space marines) making it clear that it's referring to the faction and not (space marine) which would be referring only to models of that name.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
Correct. Fortunately the rule is Preferred enemy (space marines) making it clear that it's referring to the faction and not (space marine) which would be referring only to models of that name.
it actually identifies a specific type of foe. specifically space marines. the rules for PE don't make it clear that it's referring to the faction, that's just a widely held assumption.
If PE space marines refer to the whole codex, then replacing 1 space marine would also refer to anyone in the codex.
Or if replacing 1 space marine, only applies to those named space marine, than PE would also only apply to those named space marines.
so preferred enemy space marine would only work on "space marines", not bikers, librarians, sgts?
Correct. Fortunately the rule is Preferred enemy (space marines) making it clear that it's referring to the faction and not (space marine) which would be referring only to models of that name.
it actually identifies a specific type of foe. specifically space marines. the rules for PE don't make it clear that it's referring to the faction, that's just a widely held assumption.
If PE space marines refer to the whole codex, then replacing 1 space marine would also refer to anyone in the codex.
Or if replacing 1 space marine, only applies to those named space marine, than PE would also only apply to those named space marines.
No, there are two distinct terms in use here.
"space marines" is a faction.
"space marine" is a model name.
They are not interchangeable. PE refers to "space marines" which is a faction name. The anniversary model refers to "space marine" which is a model name.
Do you have any examples where those terms are not used in that way to support your argument? (i.e. where "space marine" is used to refer to the faction of where "space marines" is used to refer to models with the name space marine.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/19 15:30:44
sirlynchmob wrote: Or if replacing 1 space marine, only applies to those named space marine, than PE would also only apply to those named space marines.
do you see right there where your argument falls short? You are arguing the exact text yet you don't have that. Space Marine is not the same text as Space MarineS
Also look at other examples of preferred enemy. It is clear that they are all faction names. Literally every other instance I can think of.
It is mere coincidence that the model profile name on the data slate is similar to the overall Faction name. But even then the faction is referred too in its plural tense, and the model name its singular tense.
PE(Characters) exists, so that is definitely not a faction name, but doesnt undermine that space marinE and space marineS are two different things entirely
really, you're arguing and using a plural instead of singular?
it's one space marine, they used the singular version of the word. You can have many space marines in your army, more than one, plural. so you assume because they referred to two space marines, that some how extrapolates to the whole codex?
space marine = 1
space marines = 2 or more of the singular space marine.
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