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Monkey Tamer wrote: Only in America do people complain about more ScarJo. My mother works in theater. It's acceptable for an originally white character to be played by someone else, but if a white person is cast in a previously non-white role people lose their minds. If Jada Smith was playing the lead role nobody would say a thing.
For a lot of people, it's not really an ethnicity thing, but rather Johannsen just doesn't seem to fit the character. As I noted earlier, I'd have preferred someone a little older, more gruff, and more heavily built, with less of the wandering "staring off into space" that Johannsen does so much. She has like...a perpetual thousand yard stare in everything she does.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
For everyone complaining about Scarlett Johansson being the lead.
Hollywood doesn't make films for the enjoyment of people who are into the source material. The majority of people who see films have no intrest in the book/comic/anime that the material was based off. I had no idea there was more than one Spiderman, but I've seen Spider-Man so on so forth.
I would not be surprised if this film has nothing to do with the source material, because 90% of the people who will watch the film will have no idea what the anime is about.
DS:90-S+G+++M++B-IPw40k03+D+A++/fWD-R++T(T)DM+ Warmachine MKIII record 39W/0D/6L
Thanks Captain Obvious. The fact there are lots of actors that aren't white is why I didn't single them out. Denzel Washington is about to play the same character also played by Yul Brenner and Takashi Shimua, npne of which ar Caucasian. Would you also like to point out that in most of the world it is football but in the US it is called soccer.
Yul Brynner was born in Vladivostock from a father with Swiss roots and a Russian mother. He had exotic look because his paternal grandmother was half Russian half Siberian native and he played that exoticism in many roles. I guess that the "one drop" rule must be going quite strong around where you live if he is not Caucasian, but in this day an age I will agree I no longer know what Caucasian means since I heard that the Khardashians were not Caucasian because their father had Armenian roots or that Greeks do not count either.
M.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 08:36:18
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About the Clans: "Those brief outbursts of sense can't hold back the wave of sibko bred, over hormoned sociopaths that they crank out though."
2016/04/25 11:17:43
Subject: Re:Ghost in the Shell (live action movie)
trexmeyer wrote: I would've suggested Rila Fukushima for the lead, but the problem is Asian actresses tend towards being waifs and are less than believable as action stars. Scarlett has the full figure of Kusanagi, but her facial structure is far off. Surely there's a female Asian action star that could've played the role? Of course that wouldn't draw as much attention as Scarlett...
It's really a pity that Americans are so openly racist against Asians, particularly the youth.
To call that racist is asinine. Hollywood movies are made to make money. Hiring a current action movie star is good business.
Or is it racist that Kurosawa didn't use British actors when he made Ran?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Nick Fury would also like to chime in. He went from being played by David Hasselhoff (who looked a LOT like classic Fury) to Samuel L. Jackson. Now, Jackson is one of my favorite actors. He's awesome. And I don't mind the switch. I don't see anyone minding the switch. But somehow it matters for ScarJo's nationality not being Asian when she's playing a robot? Get over it. The character is an android. Could be a totally different body, remade, etc. and Batou never looked Asian. So again, people need to get over it. The butt-hurt is alive and well.
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
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Monkey Tamer wrote: Only in America do people complain about more ScarJo. My mother works in theater. It's acceptable for an originally white character to be played by someone else, but if a white person is cast in a previously non-white role people lose their minds. If Jada Smith was playing the lead role nobody would say a thing.
For a lot of people, it's not really an ethnicity thing, but rather Johannsen just doesn't seem to fit the character. As I noted earlier, I'd have preferred someone a little older, more gruff, and more heavily built, with less of the wandering "staring off into space" that Johannsen does so much. She has like...a perpetual thousand yard stare in everything she does.
That's a legitimate criticism. My facebook feed was screaming for blood because she's white, not her inability to act.
If the film is set in Japan, and the characters are all Japanese, but they convert two of the main leads into White roles, then it is really dubious - that is close to Mighty Whitey territory, as well as being whitewashed. If, however, the film is set in New York or Mega City One or whatever - it is an adaptation that transposes the setting - then this is fine, in the same way that West Side Story is a good adaptation of Romeo and Juliet. The difference is in the manner of adaptation. If you take the story and characters, and adapt the entire work to a different setting, with casting and dialogue that suits the new setting, then that is fine. But if you simply shove a white character on top of the adapted material, but keep the work in the original setting, then it is definitely a bit crap. Either go the whole way, and make it a work that doesn't rely upon whitewashing one character but instead does an appropriate update of the whole cast, or don't bother at all.
A few random remarks, that I cannot be bothered putting into full paragraphs:
- Saying that it is an android body so why does it matter if it is white: because you are saying that if, given the choice, this Japanese protagonist would prefer to be white. Is that racist? I don't know for certain. It certainly seems to border on racism, especially if white people are doing the adapting.
- The Wolverine film doesn't adapt a Japanese story, so I wouldn't consider that to fall into this problem. It isn't a very faithful adaptation of the original comic, but then none of the X-Men films have been.
- Whitewashing is more of a problem than, say, making a white character into a black one, for the simple reason that we already get all of the roles as a base assumption. White people can play anything; but Asian (or whatever) thespians can't do the same, not even here, in a role that is custom-built for a Japanese actress! Not to mention that universally white protagonists increasingly doesn't reflect the diversity of the audience.
- A lot of people already raised this issue with Tilda Swinton in Dr Strange, but that one doesn't bother me so much. Not entirely sure why.
Anyway, I'm hopeful that this will turn out to be a good film, and that the reports that the studio tried using CGI to make the cast members look Japanese - rather raising the question of why not just cast Japanese people in the first place - are not indications of dreadful times ahead. There are too few cyberpunk films to enjoy!
Frazzled wrote: To call that racist is asinine. Hollywood movies are made to make money. Hiring a current action movie star is good business.
I wish more people understood this.
It's good business unless it is a bad choice for the character, which can certainly contribute to a film not making as much money as it can.
I mean, John Wayne was a big star but that doesn't make casting him as Genghis Khan any better does it? Keanu Reeves in basically any film other than Bill and Ted and The Matrix?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 16:35:20
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
TheMeanDM wrote: Nobody in the "this is racist" camp ever has refuted my visuals showing the character to be more "generic" in looks than specifically asian.
Considering purple hair and red eyes aren't exactly attributes of a specific race, I imagine you'll be waiting a long time for someone to take you up on that.
TheMeanDM wrote: Nobody in the "this is racist" camp ever has refuted my visuals showing the character to be more "generic" in looks than specifically asian.
Considering purple hair and red eyes aren't exactly attributes of a specific race, I imagine you'll be waiting a long time for someone to take you up on that.
This. Anime doesn't really portray "asian" characteristics, or at least what non-Japanese people may consider asian characteristics. You could show the same anime character to an american and a japanese person and they will give you different answers as to whether that character is white or japanese or whatever.
So what matters more in determining the race of the characters is their background and in-universe lore. Their names suggest that many of them are asian (Pazu, Aramaki, Kusanagi, Togusa, Saito, Ishikawa etc.). Their past employment, many as soldiers in the Japanese self defence force, also implies that they are asian.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/25 17:11:11
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
My daughter has blue green hair. Maybe she should audition.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/04/25 17:18:19
Subject: Re:Ghost in the Shell (live action movie)
A Town Called Malus wrote: [Keanu Reeves in basically any film other than Bill and Ted and The Matrix? Or John Wick, the best Reeves movie since Bill and Ted because the Matrix is lets face it, kind of overrated
I fixed that for you :p
As to this;
Nobody in the "this is racist" camp ever has refuted my visuals showing the character to be more "generic" in looks than specifically asian.
That's because the point you were making is kind of shallow and pedantic. Revy is Chinese-American, but does she really look much different from any other scantily clad anime character? Rin from Fate Stay?How about every single clone of Rei? Yin (top left corner) is from Norway. Does she look any different from Yuki (bottom left) who is Japanese? Anyone looking for non-American culture to codify race in the manner we do here is missing how specific America's brand of racism is to America. Japanese animators don't think in the way you suggested. A character's visual appearance in anime is more about encoding aspects of characterization via recognized visual ques, not about ensure the character is "race accurate."
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 17:26:42
A Town Called Malus wrote: Keanu Reeves in basically any film other than Bill and Ted and The Matrix? Or John Wick, the best Reeves movie since Bill and Ted because the Matrix is lets face it, kind of overrated
I fixed that for you :p
Haven't seen that but after reading about it briefly on its wikipedia page, I will definitely have to give it a watch.
Also realised that I forgot to put Point Break in the list of Reeves better films
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 17:31:23
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Their names suggest that many of them are asian (Pazu, Aramaki, Kusanagi, Togusa, Saito, Ishikawa etc.). Their past employment, many as soldiers in the Japanese self defence force, also implies that they are asian.
Not necessarily meaningful either (for the Major). I think it was in the original manga where she says she doesn't know what her real name is. Motoko Kusanagi is a name she got in the SDF, and she was considered government property for most of her childhood and early adulthood (this is covered in Arise). Remember that the Major has been fully prosthetic save her brain since she was six years old. One of the major themes in the manga and the first movie was the question of whether or not she is more human or machine. This is brought up in 2nd Gig of the TV series as well, when other members of section 9 end up debating why the major uses the body she uses (because it's a standard commercial model, not a specialized military one like Batou's). EDIT: And I'll remind that's what the series title is all about. "Ghost" is in universe code for "soul." In both the original manga and the first feature film the title referred to Motoko; the ghost in the shell.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A Town Called Malus wrote: Also realised that I forgot to put Point Break in the list of Reeves better films
That's two strikes Malus! One more and it's off to the camps
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 18:01:13
So what matters more in determining the race of the characters is their background and in-universe lore. Their names suggest that many of them are asian (Pazu, Aramaki, Kusanagi, Togusa, Saito, Ishikawa etc.). Their past employment, many as soldiers in the Japanese self defence force, also implies that they are asian.
Irrelevant. The movie setup will be all that counts.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
TheMeanDM wrote: Nobody in the "this is racist" camp ever has refuted my visuals showing the character to be more "generic" in looks than specifically asian.
Thank you Lordofhats for that great explanation on GiTS. You did a great job of respectfully showing why Scarlett Johansson casting could work in this case.
But what is irritating is some of the disingenuous arguments people are using. Remakes are OK and happen all the time. The Departed was a western remake of Infernal Affairs, and that is OK. Remakes that tell a story in a new way or different setting, that is fun. What people were worried about is when there is a chance for an Asian actor/actress and they aren't given one because of "Marketability." Some people saw a GiTS movie as a chance for a western movie with an Asian or Asian-American lead. Asians in US media are still fighting for representation, and it stinks when roles that they could have are arbitrary filled by non-Asians. This also happens to Latinos as well (see Argo).
And on Nick Fury, is everyone ignoring the fact that the Ultimate Universe Nick Fury was based on Samuel Jackson? When they decided to make the MCU, casting him seemed a gimme.
2016/04/25 20:23:00
Subject: Re:Ghost in the Shell (live action movie)
Some people saw a GiTS movie as a chance for a western movie with an Asian or Asian-American lead. Asians in US media are still fighting for representation,
Well to chime in more specifically (because I've kind of been dancing around it), yeah it is kind of problematic that they cast ScarJo rather than an Asian for the role from the perspective of racial inclusion. I think ScarJo can do the role, and I think she can do the character justice. It's really going to come down to the script there. I'm not going to complain about casting her as far as acting goes because this is something up her alley. But really. I mean, did they not even consider Rinko Kikuchi? She's got acting chops imo, and hell she fits the Arise variation of the character just as well as ScarJo. Even looked a bit like the major as Mako Mori;
Spoiler:
So yeah. It's a bit irksome that once again, non-White culture has been whitified for the convenience of a assumed white audience. As if the American viewing public has no Asians in it... and as if this film isn't going to be marketed outside America... I doubt Paramount is really thinking about that though. They want star power, and ScarJo brings it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 20:24:46
hotsauceman1 wrote: Not really. go look back at pacific rim, her english isnt that good, and neither is her acting.
Maybe not in Pacific Rim but she was good enough in Babel to get nominated for an Oscar. Now admittedly that role was in Japanese but still, it does show that she has talent.
She was also in 47 Ronin recently. Not a great film, it must be said, but I didn't notice her english to be a problem.
EDIT: In fact, going back and watching some clips, it is superb.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 21:24:02
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
She can speak English clearly enough when she needs to;
In interviews you can see that her English isn't smooth, but that doesn't seem to carry into her acting. Things like accents can be adjusted with practice line by line for the role. She doesn't have to be able to recite perfect Shakespeare at the drop of a hat.
I think the biggest thing against her is that she's never played anyone like the Major on screen, as opposed to ScarJo who has. And actually, speaking of people who've played similar roles; Ming-Na Wen? She could pull off the more boistrous version of the character I'd bet. Regardless, I think the point being made is that there are Asian and Asian American actresses known to an American audience who could fill the role. The one thing they all lack is star power for the poster.
EDIT: And because it was brought up, this isn't yellowface. This is yellowface;
There's a difference.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/25 21:58:59