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"“a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase.”

Did the unit fire in the shooting phase? Yes, it fired a melta gun. Did it target the breached team? Yes, they just chose to fire zero weapons.

OP here. There's a few things here that might be worthy of note. The frag grenades solution practically solves this if the same situation would occour. However the idea of "targeting" acting as a substitute for "shooting" changes the game ever so slightly. I tend to lean towards it working said way. My reason is that you can target and shoot at enemies wich you're not able to hurt. Like a MC with too high toughness or a tank with too high AV. Say you have a squad of gaunts and a T7 carniflex both in 4" range of a guardmsen squad with S3 lasguns, a flamer and a S3 laspistol. You can split fire, shot a flamer at the gaunts and then "shoot" the laspistol which would not be able to hurt a T7 Carniflex. You may then proceed to charge said carniflex, though for damadge purposes no shots where actually fired at the carniflex. Practically the result is the same, shoot at one target, charge the other.

This is one of those cases where rules collide. the core rule of the game says "you can only charge what you shot" but it also allows you to charge what you have not shot but could. If you shot at one unit you can not shot any other unit and therefore you cannot charge them. If you chose not to shot any units at all then all of them are still "elligble" for shooting and hence you can declare a charge on any one of them, provided they are within charging distance of course. So what if you're able to shoot multiple units? Well to me it stands to reason you that you could charge any unit you could shoot. This reasoning may have been a bit hard to follow. I don't really see the rules disagreeing with me though I feel strangely dirty comming to this conclusion.

Though the reasoning makes sence to me I don't really like it. I would prefer it to be a simple "if your unit fires a weapon it can only charge a unit it has shot at".

Nerak wrote:
OP here. There's a few things here that might be worthy of note. The frag grenades solution practically solves this if the same situation would occour. However the idea of "targeting" acting as a substitute for "shooting" changes the game ever so slightly. I tend to lean towards it working said way. My reason is that you can target and shoot at enemies wich you're not able to hurt. Like a MC with too high toughness or a tank with too high AV. Say you have a squad of gaunts and a T7 carniflex both in 4" range of a guardmsen squad with S3 lasguns, a flamer and a S3 laspistol. You can split fire, shot a flamer at the gaunts and then "shoot" the laspistol which would not be able to hurt a T7 Carniflex. You may then proceed to charge said carniflex, though for damadge purposes no shots where actually fired at the carniflex. Practically the result is the same, shoot at one target, charge the other.

This is one of those cases where rules collide. the core rule of the game says "you can only charge what you shot" but it also allows you to charge what you have not shot but could. If you shot at one unit you can not shot any other unit and therefore you cannot charge them. If you chose not to shot any units at all then all of them are still "elligble" for shooting and hence you can declare a charge on any one of them, provided they are within charging distance of course. So what if you're able to shoot multiple units? Well to me it stands to reason you that you could charge any unit you could shoot. This reasoning may have been a bit hard to follow. I don't really see the rules disagreeing with me though I feel strangely dirty comming to this conclusion.

Though the reasoning makes sence to me I don't really like it. I would prefer it to be a simple "if your unit fires a weapon it can only charge a unit it has shot at".

People keep saying that the rules read "you can only charge what you shot." This is false. A unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit which it targeted.

I am of the opinion that split fire does not change the target of a particular unit, regardless of whether they choose to fire zero or greater shots.

MrJog wrote:"“a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase.”

Did the unit fire in the shooting phase? Yes, it fired a melta gun. Did it target the breached team? Yes, they just chose to fire zero weapons.

The unit fired the meltagun, but the unit did not target the unit shot by the meltagun. The model did the targeting. However, if the rest of the unit did not shoot, it did not actually complete the Split Fire properly as they did not resolve any shooting.

MrJog wrote:People keep saying that the rules read "you can only charge what you shot." This is false. A unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit which it targeted.

This is true.

However, one should remember that the rest of the unit still has to attempt to Shoot to complete the Split Fire rule. This has little to do with the actual targeting before charging rule (aside from what the rest of the unit shoots will determine its Charge targeting). So, in the case of Split Fire "you can only charge what you shot" is still applicable.

"Resolve the shooting attacks of the rest of the unit" is not a requirement to actually shoot anything with the rest of the unit.

If you move on to step 3, choose the lasguns and then declare none of them will shoot you are resolving the shooting attacks.

In fact you do not even have to go that far, at step 3 you can just not choose a weapon as there are times in which no weapon will be in range/los(flickerjump, veil of tears, etc)

Both flickerjump and Jink are triggered by "targeted by a shooting attack", targeting happens in step 2, so a unit making a shooting attack must happen the moment it is selected in step 1; otherwise these rules can never come into effect.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"Resolve the shooting attacks of the rest of the unit" is not a requirement to actually shoot anything with the rest of the unit.

If you move on to step 3, choose the lasguns and then declare none of them will shoot you are resolving the shooting attacks.

In fact you do not even have to go that far, at step 3 you can just not choose a weapon as there are times in which no weapon will be in range/los(flickerjump, veil of tears, etc)

Both flickerjump and Jink are triggered by "targeted by a shooting attack", targeting happens in step 2, so a unit making a shooting attack must happen the moment it is selected in step 1; otherwise these rules can never come into effect.

Show me where resolve is used before To Hit rolls are made in the Shooting Sequence. Without that, the Shooting Attack cannot be consider resolved. As far as I can determine no resolution occurs in the Shooting Sequence until dice are rolled.

To resolve something just means to sort it out. You are holding this word hostage and I'm having a hard time resisting the urge to post that meme from The Princess Bride.

Zero shots equals zero wounds equals zero saves. There it is all sorted out or resolved.

MrJog wrote:
To resolve something just means to sort it out. You are holding this word hostage and I'm having a hard time resisting the urge to post that meme from The Princess Bride.

Zero shots equals zero wounds equals zero saves. There it is all sorted out or resolved.

Again, show me where it states where a Shooting Attack that does not shoot is resolved. Without using resolve with anything but dice rolls, I find it difficult to connect "choosing not to shoot with anything" as "resolving a Shooting Attack". Especially as there is no actual Attack being generated.

Beyond resolve not being a game term; sure: in select a weapon(step 3), the same set of rules that allow you to not actually shoot with the selected weapon(by declaring all of the models with that weapon will not be shooting it).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Beyond resolve not being a game term; sure: in select a weapon(step 3), the same set of rules that allow you to not actually shoot with the selected weapon(by declaring all of the models with that weapon will not be shooting it).

But if you do not shoot, you can reselect that unit again to shoot (aside from the initial model's shot during Split Fire). Still, again, no actual statement is found in Select a Weapon which tells us that if no models fire, the Shooting Attack is considered resolved. Especially when you consider the fact that no actual Attack is generated if you do not shoot.

Why can you reselect it? You can simply declare that you're choosing 'lasguns' and then fire none of them. Then declare that you've completed the shooting phase. You can't take that back.

It's like declaring that you've finished the moving phase... starting measuring stuff for shooting, then saying 'oops I forgot to move this guy, I haven't rolled anything for shooting yet so can I move him?'... Common courtesy is to allow him to move that unit... but you could say no because he declared he was done with movement.

In the same way you can declare that you're selecting 'lasguns' for step 3 and then simply not shoot them.

"Select a Weapon. Select a weapon the firing unit is equipped with. All models
equipped with a weapon with the same name can now shoot that weapon at the
target. Every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one
visible model in the target unit. Models that cannot see the target, or are not in
range, cannot shoot."

Also step 2 is to choose a single target for the unit to make its shooting attacks.

Just because you did not fire or shoot any weapons at that target does not mean you have not made your shooting attacks at that target as demonstrated above(jink and flickerjump, along with any other "target of shooting attacks" or targeted by shooting attacks")

Zimko wrote:Why can you reselect it? You can simply declare that you're choosing 'lasguns' and then fire none of them. Then declare that you've completed the shooting phase. You can't take that back.

Well, yeah, if you have gone back and declared you've completed the Shooting Phase that isn't right.

That wasn't what I said, though. Step 1 of the Shooting Sequence is "1. Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to shoot but has yet to do so this turn." If you have not completed your Shooting Phase and the unit has not shot yet, they can still be reselected to shoot. The unit has not shot until they have made the attempt To Hit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Also step 2 is to choose a single target for the unit to make its shooting attacks.

Just because you did not fire or shoot any weapons at that target does not mean you have not made your shooting attacks at that target as demonstrated above(jink and flickerjump, along with any other "target of shooting attacks" or targeted by shooting attacks")

And the rule that states targeting a unit is sufficient to resolve a Shooting Attack is....?

Again, resolving isn't used with the Shooting Attack until after dice have been rolled.

Flicker Jump has its own rules which do not allow for the unit to change targets. That finishes that unit's participation in the Phase if it moves out of LoS or Range.

Jink does not provide for the unit to change Targets, but then you're back to not shooting.

Okay so if I don't roll any hits on step number four can I not resolve step number five, six, or seven?

Hypothetical situation:

A model with a Gets Hot Blast weapon attempts to shoot something. "Immediately before firing" The player rolls for Gets hot, rolls a 1, and survives the wound. The Gets Hot rules say that "the shot is not fired". It says nothing further about whether the model can or can not attempt to fire again, or whether the model's shooting attack is considered "resolved".

By Charistoph's logic it seems to me that this model may now attempt to shoot again, since it has not rolled to hit (or the blast equivalent of rolling to hit) and no shots have actually been fired or resolved. No dice have been rolled to attempt to score a hit.

by Everyone else's logic it seems to me that the model may not attempt to shoot again, since declaring a target for a shooting attack means you have fired, regardless of how many dice you have or have not rolled. The model attempted to fire, his weapon got hot, and now he's done for a turn.

Bojazz wrote:
Hypothetical situation:

A model with a Gets Hot Blast weapon attempts to shoot something. "Immediately before firing" The player rolls for Gets hot, rolls a 1, and survives the wound. The Gets Hot rules say that "the shot is not fired". It says nothing further about whether the model can or can not attempt to fire again, or whether the model's shooting attack is considered "resolved".

By Charistoph's logic it seems to me that this model may now attempt to shoot again, since it has not rolled to hit (or the blast equivalent of rolling to hit) and no shots have actually been fired or resolved. No dice have been rolled to attempt to score a hit.

by Everyone else's logic it seems to me that the model may not attempt to shoot again, since declaring a target for a shooting attack means you have fired, regardless of how many dice you have or have not rolled. The model attempted to fire, his weapon got hot, and now he's done for a turn.

Aside the fact you already rolled a dice that justify the shooting attack, as the rules tell you to do.

Or would you claim that since the weapon is now unable to shoot you are not firing then and not taking the Gets hot wound due not firing it ?

Lord Perversor wrote:
Aside the fact you already rolled a dice that justify the shooting attack, as the rules tell you to do.

Or would you claim that since the weapon is now unable to shoot you are not firing then and not taking the Gets hot wound due not firing it ?

Personally I'd follow everyone else's logic and say that since you've declared a target and started the shooting process, the shooting attack has been resolved regardless of how far through the process you were able to get. The post was to exemplify how Charistoph's claim that " If you have not completed your Shooting Phase and the unit has not shot yet, they can still be reselected to shoot." would allow Gets Hot Blast weapons to repeatedly attempt to fire until they are successful, since Gets Hot says "the shot is not fired".

MrJog wrote:Okay so if I don't roll any hits on step number four can I not resolve step number five, six, or seven?

Sure, how many To Wound Rolls do you make with 0 Hits? How many Saves do you make with 0 Wounds?

As for Step 7, that takes you back to Step 3 or Step 1.

Bojazz wrote:Hypothetical situation:

A model with a Gets Hot Blast weapon attempts to shoot something. "Immediately before firing" The player rolls for Gets hot, rolls a 1, and survives the wound. The Gets Hot rules say that "the shot is not fired". It says nothing further about whether the model can or can not attempt to fire again, or whether the model's shooting attack is considered "resolved".

By Charistoph's logic it seems to me that this model may now attempt to shoot again, since it has not rolled to hit (or the blast equivalent of rolling to hit) and no shots have actually been fired or resolved. No dice have been rolled to attempt to score a hit.

by Everyone else's logic it seems to me that the model may not attempt to shoot again, since declaring a target for a shooting attack means you have fired, regardless of how many dice you have or have not rolled. The model attempted to fire, his weapon got hot, and now he's done for a turn.

I guess the statement of "equivalent of Rolling To Hit" means nothing to you?

The gets hot roll for a blast weapon takes place BEFORE firing. There has been no equivalent roll to hit for a blast weapon that has gotten hot. The shot is never fired, as per the gets hot rules. So yeah, "equivalent of rolling to hit" does mean something to me, but a blast weapon that gets hot doesn't make it that far.

Bojazz wrote:
The gets hot roll for a blast weapon takes place BEFORE firing. There has been no equivalent roll to hit for a blast weapon that has gotten hot. The shot is never fired, as per the gets hot rules. So yeah, "equivalent of rolling to hit" does mean something to me, but a blast weapon that gets hot doesn't make it that far.

But it takes place after Checking For Range for Selecting a Weapon, and performed right before you place the marker. It's inserted in that nebulous space.where the Rolling To Hit is engaged (in this case the Rolling for Scatter, really). And yes, that is part of why I keep referring to "equivalent", and also have stated "after dice roll" as well. Did you roll a die for Gets Hot?

Christoph: how many hits do you roll with 0 models firing the chosen weapon? Same exact thing.

If you have selected a unit to make shooting attacks, you have begun makung that unit's shooting attacks. In step 2 you are targeting a unit with shooting attacks. In step 3 you technically need to choose a weapon with which to make shooting attacks but may then choose not to fire with any of the models that have that weapon. At this point you roll 0 to hits, have 0 hits with which to roll to wounds, the opponent has 0 wounds which require saves and allocation, removes 0 casualties and you are on to step 7 where you choose 0 other weapons to fire.

You can skip all that discussion of nothing and simply target the unit for a shooting attack then not shoot.

You also only target at step 2, moving on to not fire does not in any way allow you to select another target.

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
To resolve something just means to sort it out. You are holding this word hostage and I'm having a hard time resisting the urge to post that meme from The Princess Bride.

Zero shots equals zero wounds equals zero saves. There it is all sorted out or resolved.

Again, show me where it states where a Shooting Attack that does not shoot is resolved. Without using resolve with anything but dice rolls, I find it difficult to connect "choosing not to shoot with anything" as "resolving a Shooting Attack". Especially as there is no actual Attack being generated.

Show me the rule that states that you have to roll to hit to resolve a shooting attack. I see none. To resolve a shooting attack you simply tally up unsaved wounds and see if it forces any morale tests or pinning tests, etc. There are 0 unsaved wounds, shooting is resolved

He can't show you that. He is stretching too far to make resolve mean something it does not.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Christoph: how many hits do you roll with 0 models firing the chosen weapon? Same exact thing.

How many units are shooting if 0 models are firing the chosen weapon? How are Shooting Attacks made without Shooting?

Kommissar Kel wrote:If you have selected a unit to make shooting attacks, you have begun makung that unit's shooting attacks. In step 2 you are targeting a unit with shooting attacks. In step 3 you technically need to choose a weapon with which to make shooting attacks but may then choose not to fire with any of the models that have that weapon. At this point you roll 0 to hits, have 0 hits with which to roll to wounds, the opponent has 0 wounds which require saves and allocation, removes 0 casualties and you are on to step 7 where you choose 0 other weapons to fire.

You can skip all that discussion of nothing and simply target the unit for a shooting attack then not shoot.

You also only target at step 2, moving on to not fire does not in any way allow you to select another target.

And the rule to support that is where?

Zarroc1733 wrote:Show me the rule that states that you have to roll to hit to resolve a shooting attack. I see none. To resolve a shooting attack you simply tally up unsaved wounds and see if it forces any morale tests or pinning tests, etc. There are 0 unsaved wounds, shooting is resolved

So you have nothing to answer the question?

In order to demonstrate a Shooting Attack is resolved by only Targeting, a case needs to be made that it can be resolved with nothing Shooting. So, in order to resolve a Shooting Attack:
1) You determine unsaved Wounds.
2) Those unsaved Wounds come from resolved Saves. (If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.)
3) Those Saves come from resolved Wounds. (The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one.)
4) Those Wounds come from resolved Hits. (To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart)
5) Those Hits come from Shots. (roll a D6 for each shot that is in range)

Therefore, No Shots, no Shooting Attack.

That is the Shooting Sequence in reverse, noting where the instances of "resolved" come from, and following the path back from when you consider a Shooting Attack resolved.

MrJog wrote:He can't show you that. He is stretching too far to make resolve mean something it does not.

It's not nice to troll just because you have no clue as to what I am talking about.

We understand what you are saying. We just don't agree. You have made up a new definition of a word.

MrJog wrote:
We understand what you are saying. We just don't agree. You have made up a new definition of a word.

Either present a case or be seen as trolling.

If you understand my case and what I am saying, then please actually address them.

How many units are shooting? 1, the same as if a plasma cannon rolled a gets hot(which, again specifies no shot is fired; your requirement of "some roll of the dice" is an arbitrary fabrication).

Shooting attacks are started when you select a unit to make them, the rules then allow for no models to actually fire.

The rules that support that are... The shooting phase rules, you should try reading the actual rules instead of just the summary; you might learn something.

As for your reply to zarroc: completely based on your own illogical fallacy. Let me give you an example of what you are saying in an actually possible situation(based on my and one of my regular opponent's armies and commonly seen units): I play guard and love fielding armoured sentinels with plasma cannons, he plays Eldar(all 3) and does field warp spiders. So I have my turn and select a lone plasma Sent as the firing unit, choose the warp spiders as a target(they flickerjump but are still in range/los). I then roll a 1 and gets hot, so no shot is fired. According to you my armoured sent unit has not made a shooting attack, so can be selected again; also incidentally, as no shooting attack happened, the warp spiders flickerjump is retroactively illegal and in a tournament setting I can call the TO over to dq him for cheating.

For mr. Jong's reply; show us the definition in game terms for "resolve". Prove it is a game term and dependent on rolling at least a to hit in the shooting phase. Otherwise, yes you are the one making up rules that do not exist; along with your general assuming things work in a certain way without knowing(or making assumptions about) any of the rules involved(as you have shown in this, and at least half of the threads you have been posting in lately).

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/resolve

I can't seem to find a definition that deals with dice rolling. So is there one in the BRB? I would say if not, then you are making things up.

However I do like this one from Webster.
"d : to find a mathematical solution of"
So if you can multiply by zero you should be good, right?

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
How many units are shooting? 1, the same as if a plasma cannon rolled a gets hot(which, again specifies no shot is fired; your requirement of "some roll of the dice" is an arbitrary fabrication).

Not the full question. "How many units are shooting if 0 models are shooting?" The answer is 0. No models shooting equals no units shooting.

Roll of the dice is not arbitrary in determining if shooting is done. A model is not shooting if it is found out of Range or out of Line of Sight of the target. The Rolling To Hit also talks about resolving shots, i.e. a noun indicating an attempt at shooting.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Shooting attacks are started when you select a unit to make them, the rules then allow for no models to actually fire.

Starting isn't the issue, resolving them is. If no models fire, then no shooting occurs. If there is no shooting, no Hits to Resolve, etc.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The rules that support that are... The shooting phase rules, you should try reading the actual rules instead of just the summary; you might learn something.

Please try to be more specific in demonstrating your case. Targeting alone has not been shown to actually resolve a Shooting Attack.

There should be something which properly defines when a Shooting Attack is resolved other than the entire Shooting Phase rules. I have already pointed out several points in the Shooting Phase rules that many people have seemed to have forgotten and neglected about the Shooting Phase and continue to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MrJog wrote:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/resolve

I can't seem to find a definition that deals with dice rolling. So is there one in the BRB? I would say if not, then you are making things up.

However I do like this one from Webster.
"d : to find a mathematical solution of"
So if you can multiply by zero you should be good, right?

I should point out that the definition itself was never in question by me, but it's placement and use in the BRB pertaining to the Shooting Phase. In short, the first time it is used is after you Roll To Hit. It is never used in the Shooting Phase before this point, so connecting it to just targeting is stretching the definition to mean something it does not.

The unit is making shooting attacks whether or not any models actually fire any weapons from the moment you select them to make shooting attacks. Read the shooting phase rules. Like seriously, the whole section of the rules.

No shots need to be fired for "shooting" to occur. Again, read the choose a weapon section.

And once again, the moment you select your unit you have one of 2 choices(that becomes many more once other special rules get involved): select a target, or run. Running is not making a shooting attack(well, not firing anyways; but some of those other crazy special rules give up the shooting attack for a different action), so I will admit that your unit is not making a shooting attack until selecting a target(at this point you must be making a shooting attack, because this is the trigger for some rules: "targeted by a shooting attack).

You also seem to have no response to yhe Sentinel and Warp Spiders example. Care to explain why tje Sentinel cannot just keep targeting the spiders until the jump out of LOS so long as it continues to get hot each time? Or any unit for that matter?

Resolve, resolve, resolve. The first paragraph in the shooting phase states complete, you only have to resolve after a weapon is chosen(and again, you can resolve steps 4-6 with 0 dice at any point); hell a template weapon never rolls to hit, so it must not be able to move on to roll to wound and therefore is never fired right?

You are wrong and arbitrarily making up rulesand definitions that do not exist.

Even your claim that a weapon must be fired or you can re-select a unit for the shootin phase means that you can select a unit, run instead of firing, go back and select that unit again(it now cannot fire, and at the same time has yet to do so) and run again ad nauseum.