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 Charistoph wrote:

Zarroc1733 wrote:Show me the rule that states that you have to roll to hit to resolve a shooting attack. I see none. To resolve a shooting attack you simply tally up unsaved wounds and see if it forces any morale tests or pinning tests, etc. There are 0 unsaved wounds, shooting is resolved

So you have nothing to answer the question?

In order to demonstrate a Shooting Attack is resolved by only Targeting, a case needs to be made that it can be resolved with nothing Shooting. So, in order to resolve a Shooting Attack:
1) You determine unsaved Wounds.
2) Those unsaved Wounds come from resolved Saves. (If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.)
3) Those Saves come from resolved Wounds. (The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one.)
4) Those Wounds come from resolved Hits. (To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart)
5) Those Hits come from Shots. (roll a D6 for each shot that is in range)

Therefore, No Shots, no Shooting Attack.

That is the Shooting Sequence in reverse, noting where the instances of "resolved" come from, and following the path back from when you consider a Shooting Attack resolved..

Where are the rules support for this though? What are your rules that support a shot has to be made for it to count? The rules themselves say you can choose not to shoot with certain models. The shooting sequence is
1. Nominate a unit to shoot
2. Choose a target
3. Select a weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Allocate wounds & Remove Casualties
7. Repeat steps 3-7 until done

In step 3 It says this

First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with.
The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All
models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot
at the target unit with that weapon.

And here's the important part

A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared
before rolling To Hit. If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon
now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase

So you can start the shooting sequence, make it all the way to step 3 then choose not to shoot with any models. You don't skip steps 4-6, you roll dice equal to the amount of shots you should shoot, in this case 0 Since that's a pointless matter it's just passed over but you could still technically go through those steps.



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Also those are direct quotes from my digital copy of the BRB

Kommissar Kel wrote:The unit is making shooting attacks whether or not any models actually fire any weapons from the moment you select them to make shooting attacks. Read the shooting phase rules. Like seriously, the whole section of the rules.

No shots need to be fired for "shooting" to occur. Again, read the choose a weapon section.

Incorrect. Under Select A Weapon, we have Which Models Can Fire? which states in its very first sentence:

Any model that has line of sight to at least one enemy model in the target unit and is found to be in range of that model can shoot.

All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit. If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in its unit then it cannot shoot at all in that phase.

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

I'm not even bolding for emphasis, this is bolded in the book. This is the last step taken before you Roll To Hit. Nothing is noted as shooting at this point, and is the last preparatory statement before shots are fired. The very next sentence that is not fluff or example is under Roll To Hit:

To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later.

So, yeah, the Shooting Phase does actually require some attempt To Hit to qualify as actually shooting. I have referenced this numerous times, and it is part of the Shooting Phase. If you can provide evidence before hand, actually reference it or quote it, just do not declare it.

Kommissar Kel wrote:And once again, the moment you select your unit you have one of 2 choices(that becomes many more once other special rules get involved): select a target, or run. Running is not making a shooting attack(well, not firing anyways; but some of those other crazy special rules give up the shooting attack for a different action), so I will admit that your unit is not making a shooting attack until selecting a target(at this point you must be making a shooting attack, because this is the trigger for some rules: "targeted by a shooting attack).

That is incorrect. You can also commit the unit to doing nothing during the Shooting Phase. But neither that nor Running is an options when using Split Fire, since Split Fire requires Shooting Attacks to be resolved.

Kommissar Kel wrote:You also seem to have no response to yhe Sentinel and Warp Spiders example. Care to explain why tje Sentinel cannot just keep targeting the spiders until the jump out of LOS so long as it continues to get hot each time? Or any unit for that matter?

I actually have addressed them.

For the Warp Spiders, the shooting unit cannot Change Target, so they must either commit to Attacking or not, no option is made to retarget the Warp Spiders, so no option for them to Jump again before Shooting occurs.

As for Gets Hot, I have already explained it. Go back and look it up if you want it so bad. Since you want me to read the entire Shooting Phase which you will not bother quoting or referencing significant parts, you will have no problem answering this smaller challenge.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Resolve, resolve, resolve. The first paragraph in the shooting phase states complete, you only have to resolve after a weapon is chosen(and again, you can resolve steps 4-6 with 0 dice at any point); hell a template weapon never rolls to hit, so it must not be able to move on to roll to wound and therefore is never fired right?

Do you mean where it states, "You can choose any order for your units to shoot, but you must complete all the firing by one unit before you move on to the next."? As pointed out, no shooting, no firing. No firing, no commitment and no start. I cannot choose to Split Fire with one model and then move on to another unit, and then expect to come back to that unit. In order to Split Fire, one model shoots and resolves his Attack, and then the rest of the unit shoots and resolves their Attack(s).

Kommissar Kel wrote:You are wrong and arbitrarily making up rules and definitions that do not exist.

Name one rule I have made up that I have not at least referenced. Meanwhile, you have declared rules such as Targeting is all that is needed to resolve a Shooting Attack without even referencing the section in the Shooting Phase which would allow us to come to that conclusion. That Selecting a Target is the first step to beginning a Shooting Attack is not in dispute. But evidence is needed to determine that it is the ONLY thing required.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Even your claim that a weapon must be fired or you can re-select a unit for the shootin phase means that you can select a unit, run instead of firing, go back and select that unit again(it now cannot fire, and at the same time has yet to do so) and run again ad nauseum.

Running includes rules that deny Shooting, since "units may choose to Run instead of firing." For someone who thinks the whole Shooting Phase section answers all these questions, I seem to be finding a lot of holes in that argument of yourse IN the Shooting Phase rules and support mine.

Zarroc1733 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Zarroc1733 wrote:Show me the rule that states that you have to roll to hit to resolve a shooting attack. I see none. To resolve a shooting attack you simply tally up unsaved wounds and see if it forces any morale tests or pinning tests, etc. There are 0 unsaved wounds, shooting is resolved

So you have nothing to answer the question?

In order to demonstrate a Shooting Attack is resolved by only Targeting, a case needs to be made that it can be resolved with nothing Shooting. So, in order to resolve a Shooting Attack:
1) You determine unsaved Wounds.
2) Those unsaved Wounds come from resolved Saves. (If it fails, reduce that model’s Wounds by 1.)
3) Those Saves come from resolved Wounds. (The model gets to make a saving throw, if it has one.)
4) Those Wounds come from resolved Hits. (To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart)
5) Those Hits come from Shots. (roll a D6 for each shot that is in range)

Therefore, No Shots, no Shooting Attack.

That is the Shooting Sequence in reverse, noting where the instances of "resolved" come from, and following the path back from when you consider a Shooting Attack resolved..

Where are the rules support for this though?

They are quoted in the parentheses for each section. Did you not bother to look them up?

Zarroc1733 wrote:What are your rules that support a shot has to be made for it to count? The rules themselves say you can choose not to shoot with certain models. The shooting sequence is
1. Nominate a unit to shoot
2. Choose a target
3. Select a weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Allocate wounds & Remove Casualties
7. Repeat steps 3-7 until done

In step 3 It says this

First, select a weapon that one or more models in your unit are equipped with. The selected weapon cannot be one that the unit has shot with during this phase. All models in the unit that are equipped with the selected weapon can now shoot at the target unit with that weapon.

And here's the important part

A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers. This must be declared before rolling To Hit. If a model chooses not to shoot with the currently selected weapon now, it cannot fire that weapon later during the same phase

So you can start the shooting sequence, make it all the way to step 3 then choose not to shoot with any models. You don't skip steps 4-6, you roll dice equal to the amount of shots you should shoot, in this case 0 Since that's a pointless matter it's just passed over but you could still technically go through those steps.

You have just answered your own question with this statement, oddly enough. At no point did you point out where shooting happens if you do not shoot. And you missed something very important in the Select A Weapon section. I have quoted it up above for Kommissar Kel. Go and read it or look it up in your rulebook. I have only referenced it several times before now.

Deleted due to some confusion

So let's say you split fire...

"Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit"

And choose not to shoot anything with the rest of the unit. (Meaning, you don't target anything)

Is the 'unit' considered to have 'fired' in the shooting phase for the purposes of charging? If so, then what unit did it target? A model with a special rule (which breaks normal rules) fired. The unit didn't fire anything. So they should be able to charge whatever they want, right?

1) yes the model can shoot. Does it have to? No. Which models can fire(can in both the first sentence of your quote and tje subsection title meaning "has the capability of the action") has absolutely no relevence nor requirement for any of the models to shoot.

2) Yes nothing is noted as having shot, but your unit is already at this point making a shooting attack. Shooting attack, and shoot/firing a weapon(or simply firing) are different terms. Once you have targeted a unit in step 2 you are targeting that unit with a shooting attack; this is the only way all of the various rules reliant on that clause can function; especially when you take into account other rules that can stop your unit from actually firing the weapon(gets hot, veil of tears, flickerjump exiting range/los, etc). You are also talking about having shot in the past tense versus making or targeting with a shooting attack in the present or future tense as if targeting does not happen until after the dice have been rolled.

3) no you really did not address either. Your claims that a shot must occur or the unit is not making a shooting attack means that in that scenario the sentinel targers the spiders, they bounce but are still in range/los, the gets hot result(which is not a to-hit roll since this is a blast weapon) clearly states the weapon does not fire. Now you have the impossible situation where the spiders have been targeted by a shooting attack and flickerjumped, but then there was no shooting attack as gets hot prevented the model from firing so according to your statements you must commit to firing that plasma cannon a second time rolling another get hot test. Since the shooting sequence has been aborted by the gets hot, you cannot move on to another unit and are still on the sentinel as the selected unit to make shooting attacks, moving back to step 2 because that is where you start making shooting attacks flickerjump forces you to continue targeting the spiders. The spiders now targeted(again) by a shooting attack may flickerjump, the sentinel only has a plasma cannon with which to fire so must again choose that weapon(we have reset the sequence to fulfill your commitment to firing that doesn't exist in the rules anywhere), rolling a gets hot test. If it gets hot again, rinse-repeat.

4) You are correct that you cannot fire with the split fire model, then move to a different unit and make its shooting attacks, then go back to the first unit again. But no one was suggesting that in any way. Firing with the split fire model then resolving your 0 shots with lasguns on the breachers then opting not to choose any more weapons though does complete that units firing while selecting the breachers as the target of the unit's shooting attacks. Literally nothing in the shooting rules requires a single shot to be fired by a unit in order for that unit to have targeted another unit with thier shooting attacks(as has been demonstrated multiple times).

5) Your requirements that a weapon be fired or a to hit roll be made has been arbitrarily fabricated by you. Show me where that rule exists and I will mail you all of my beloved plasma cannon sentinels.

I also had referenced and quoted the section, but I will now quote it for you; Step 3, Select a Weapon, paragraph 4, first sentence: "A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers."

There is no limit to how many models may be chosen not to fire in that paragraph, you are free to choose not to fire with any of them

6) If you are claiming that you must fire a weapon after selecting a unit with which to do so, and opt to run instead; then you are either breaking your own rule or forced to just keep running with that unit until you and your opponent decide to simply end the game. When you run you do so instead of firing, but as you pointed out you must fire in order to complete the shooting sequence with the selected unit before you move on to another unit. It was a statement to get you to realize that no shots need to be fired to complete the sequence, and yes another rule that proves you do not have to fire.

7) Resolution of a shooting attack with no shots fired, in reverse order:
a)0 models are removed as casualties(as there were no unsaved wounds applied in excess of any model's W characteristic.
b) 0 unsaved wounds were allocated(as there were no unsaved wounds)
c) 0 Saves were taken(as there were no wounding hits)
d) 0 to wound rolls were attempted(as there were no successful hits)
e) 0 to hit rolls were attempted(as no models fired the selected weapon).

8) the reason why you would ever target a unit with a shooting attack but not actually fire any weapons at it is the OP's exact scenario: split fire with an anti-tank weapon and the desire to assault a different unit. In this case the unit will be firing a weapon in the shooting phase(via split fire), but targeting their intended charge target, as the unit only has ranged weapons that would deny the ability to charge, their best option is to select that weapon and choose not to fire with all models in the unit, resolving the rest of the shooting sequence as above.


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Zimko; if a model has fired the unit has fired; the special rule does not change that. Also If you have not selected a target with the unit as a whole then youe model firing via spli target has not fired at a different target; the only target from the unit was the unit that the firing model targeted.

That is why you need to declare a target for the unit to not actually fire at(and yes, technically a weapon that no model will fire)

So if a unit has 0 weapons it can fire with (an all melee unit), but they have an attached IC with Split Fire that uses Split Fire to fire his weapon at a tank, then the unit can't choose to charge something that isn't the tank?

It seems like the Split Fire rule should allow for a model to act independently from the unit with regards to targeting, thus allowing the unit to charge whatever it wants.

Correct.

In order to target a unit with your unit you must have ranged weapons in your unit(as stated in the first page of this thread grenades always help here and most pure melee units have assault grenades as they are the only thing that lets you charge through difficult terrain and still attack at initiative.)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
1) yes the model can shoot. Does it have to? No. Which models can fire(can in both the first sentence of your quote and tje subsection title meaning "has the capability of the action") has absolutely no relevence nor requirement for any of the models to shoot.

Permission not to shoot is really not at discussion. You keep bringing this option up as if it mattered. The fact is that if zero models fire, the unit is not shooting. No shooting, no Shooting Attacks are resolved, according to the words the rulebook uses and when it uses them. Targeting alone is never stated as completing a Shooting Attack or count as Shooting.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
2) Yes nothing is noted as having shot, but your unit is already at this point making a shooting attack. Shooting attack, and shoot/firing a weapon(or simply firing) are different terms. Once you have targeted a unit in step 2 you are targeting that unit with a shooting attack; this is the only way all of the various rules reliant on that clause can function; especially when you take into account other rules that can stop your unit from actually firing the weapon(gets hot, veil of tears, flickerjump exiting range/los, etc). You are also talking about having shot in the past tense versus making or targeting with a shooting attack in the present or future tense as if targeting does not happen until after the dice have been rolled.

For the umpteenth time, do you have a reference or quote that Targeting is sufficient to complete a Shooting Attack? Please present it. Not once has it been presented, yet.

I have stated that while Targeting is used to set up the Shooting Attack, the actual shooting still requires the equivalent of To Hits to be made. I have provided you where actual firing and shooting starts. I have provided you the points where firing and shooting are considered to have resolved. But you ignore them all. Why?

There are times I talk about past and future tense because that is what the rulebook uses. I have quoted you the transition point where it goes from future tense to past tense. Yet, for all your claims, you failed to present any reference or quote to state we need to concern ourselves with the present.

And no, I do not state that targeting happens until the dice have been rolled, nor have I intimated that. That is a misrepresentation of what I have said. I have stated the SHOOTING doesn't happen until the dice roll (or the Weapon's equivalent To Hit). Learn the difference. That is the key to understanding my case.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
3) no you really did not address either. Your claims that a shot must occur or the unit is not making a shooting attack means that in that scenario the sentinel targers the spiders, they bounce but are still in range/los, the gets hot result(which is not a to-hit roll since this is a blast weapon) clearly states the weapon does not fire. Now you have the impossible situation where the spiders have been targeted by a shooting attack and flickerjumped, but then there was no shooting attack as gets hot prevented the model from firing so according to your statements you must commit to firing that plasma cannon a second time rolling another get hot test. Since the shooting sequence has been aborted by the gets hot, you cannot move on to another unit and are still on the sentinel as the selected unit to make shooting attacks, moving back to step 2 because that is where you start making shooting attacks flickerjump forces you to continue targeting the spiders. The spiders now targeted(again) by a shooting attack may flickerjump, the sentinel only has a plasma cannon with which to fire so must again choose that weapon(we have reset the sequence to fulfill your commitment to firing that doesn't exist in the rules anywhere), rolling a gets hot test. If it gets hot again, rinse-repeat.

So, you DIDN'T look up my answer on Gets Hot. Look it up before addressing it again. Oh, and it doesn't involve a loop, despite your imagining.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
4) You are correct that you cannot fire with the split fire model, then move to a different unit and make its shooting attacks, then go back to the first unit again. But no one was suggesting that in any way. Firing with the split fire model then resolving your 0 shots with lasguns on the breachers then opting not to choose any more weapons though does complete that units firing while selecting the breachers as the target of the unit's shooting attacks. Literally nothing in the shooting rules requires a single shot to be fired by a unit in order for that unit to have targeted another unit with thier shooting attacks(as has been demonstrated multiple times).

I was referring to that which the sentence was addressing. You said that "completed" was in the first paragraph, and what it is talking about was "completed firing" which goes back to the actual action of shooting and not just the more global concept of the Shooting Attack.

But how can you finish something you didn't start? That is the point you do not seem to be appreciating. You think just setting it up is sufficient to complete the action. This is not true. Making cake batter and not putting it in the oven isn't baking a cake. All you did was make a sweet mixture. Baking a cake involves making the batter first to set it up, prepping the pan, and heating up the oven. BUT until that mixture is in the oven and beginning the heat process, baking is not actually occurring.

So, too. Targeting and Selecting a Weapon are all well and good at setting up shooting, but until dice are actually rolled To Hit (or their equivalent) no actual shooting is involved.

But again, targeting itself isn't the issue, it is establishing that targeting is the ONLY requirement for establishing the resolution to a Shooting Attack. Targeting is all that is needed for Flickerjump and for Charging, true, not in dispute. However, Targeting is not sufficient for the rest of the unit with Split Fire. The Shooting Attack must be completed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
5) Your requirements that a weapon be fired or a to hit roll be made has been arbitrarily fabricated by you. Show me where that rule exists and I will mail you all of my beloved plasma cannon sentinels.

I also had referenced and quoted the section, but I will now quote it for you; Step 3, Select a Weapon, paragraph 4, first sentence: "A player can choose not to fire with certain models if he prefers."

There is no limit to how many models may be chosen not to fire in that paragraph, you are free to choose not to fire with any of them

It has not been made up by me. That list I gave Zarroc demonstrates where the Shooting Phase actually uses resolved and its synonyms are used. Why do you think that permission to not shoot is sufficient to complete a Shooting Attack? Your quote and reference are not sufficient to define this as completion or resolution of the Shooting Attack. It works for a model, but not for an entire unit.

Permission not to fire is not the problem. The problem is that by NOT firing, you are not shooting. No shooting, no resolution to a Shooting Attack. No resolution to a Shooting Attack means that Split Fire has failed.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
6) If you are claiming that you must fire a weapon after selecting a unit with which to do so, and opt to run instead; then you are either breaking your own rule or forced to just keep running with that unit until you and your opponent decide to simply end the game. When you run you do so instead of firing, but as you pointed out you must fire in order to complete the shooting sequence with the selected unit before you move on to another unit. It was a statement to get you to realize that no shots need to be fired to complete the sequence, and yes another rule that proves you do not have to fire.

Odd how you think I am breaking my own rule, when it involves breaking YOUR own rule by this set up.

But we aren't talking about the Sequence, really. We are defining Shooting and a Shooting Attack. To you, a Shooting Attack is started with and can end with simply Targeting. Nothing has been stated to support this, however.

If no model shoots, no Shooting Attack occurs. This resets the status of the unit and allows it to be reselected to Shoot. Not to mention, since if a unit does NOT shoot, it can Run (instead of firing). Simply Targeting doesn't force shooting as you keep pointing out (and pointedly, I have not actually argued against). If you voluntarily choose zero models shooting, then you have the opportunity to be selected to shoot again. If you have the opportunity to shoot again, you can alternatively choose to Run.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
7) Resolution of a shooting attack with no shots fired, in reverse order:
a)0 models are removed as casualties(as there were no unsaved wounds applied in excess of any model's W characteristic.
b) 0 unsaved wounds were allocated(as there were no unsaved wounds)
c) 0 Saves were taken(as there were no wounding hits)
d) 0 to wound rolls were attempted(as there were no successful hits)
e) 0 to hit rolls were attempted(as no models fired the selected weapon).

See, no shots made, no actual shooting. No actual shooting, you have chosen not to even use steps e, which leads to e-a not even being used.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
8) the reason why you would ever target a unit with a shooting attack but not actually fire any weapons at it is the OP's exact scenario: split fire with an anti-tank weapon and the desire to assault a different unit. In this case the unit will be firing a weapon in the shooting phase(via split fire), but targeting their intended charge target, as the unit only has ranged weapons that would deny the ability to charge, their best option is to select that weapon and choose not to fire with all models in the unit, resolving the rest of the shooting sequence as above.

Except that by not firing, you have not resolved any Shooting Attacks, and so have not resolved Split Fire. Game-wise, you didn't perform a Split Fire, you just fired on that Tank with the only Weapon that could scratch it. If you want to use Split Fire to avoid this, resolve another Shooting Attack by following the process to a point where it actually states something is resolved. Targeting resolves nothing for the shooting unit.

1. I nominate a squad like we are discussing to make a shooting attack.

2. I target the infantry squad.

3. I select my weapon that gets to split fire and shoot at the unit I did not target. Next I select the weapon the rest of my unit is carrying. I choose to fire 0 shots.

My unit has targeted and fired. It's that simple.

MrJog wrote:
1. I nominate a squad like we are discussing to make a shooting attack.

2. I target the infantry squad.

3. I select my weapon that gets to split fire and shoot at the unit I did not target. Next I select the weapon the rest of my unit is carrying. I choose to fire 0 shots.

My unit has targeted and fired. It's that simple.

No, it has not. Where does it first indicate it has fired? In Roll To Hits. Before then, we have restrictions where "if it does not have range, it cannot shoot" and similar. Future tense with shooting and firing is used before Step 3, and past tense with Step 4.

Again, this is not my bizarre definition, but how the rulebook positions these terms and which steps it associates them with.

So are you saying my unit didn't make a shooting attack? I mean the guy with splitfire might have even blown up a vehicle. But you are saying the unit didn't shoot? Or you are saying that a units target automatically changes when you use split fire in this manner? Where is that indicated in the book? At what point in my shooting attack did I go wrong?

MrJog wrote:
So are you saying my unit didn't make a shooting attack? I mean the guy with splitfire might have even blown up a vehicle. But you are saying the unit didn't shoot? Or you are saying that a units target automatically changes when you use split fire in this manner? Where is that indicated in the book? At what point in my shooting attack did I go wrong?

The model has, but the rest of the unit did not. And the rest of the unit must resolve a Shooting Attack, which means it must fire in order to actually be resolved.

Split Fire wrote:When a unit that contains at least one model with this special rule shoots, one model in the unit can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Split Firing unit’s initial shooting attack.

Do you see it?

According to you then what happens when I choose not to fire with the rest of the unit? The game breaks and is over?


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Which one of these would you like to use? Because none of them seem to support you.

MrJog wrote:
According to you then what happens when I choose not to fire with the rest of the unit? The game breaks and is over?

In relation to which? Normal shooting or the rest of the unit in Split Fire? Be explicit in your request.

I do believe I have explained this quite often. Can you not extrapolate, or are you so focused on something else (like the definition of resolve) that you do not listen to what actually is being said?

If you do not shoot with the rest of a Split Firing unit, you are violating the rule which states that you resolve the rest of the unit's Shooting Attack. Just as surely as trying to use an Ordnance Weapon on a Vehicle after you have already normally fired the rest of its Weapons without Snap Firing.

With a non-Split Firing unit, if this is there first Weapon, very little. It can choose another Target to Shoot at, but if it doesn't, then it still is the same as if it was not chosen to shoot.

As it is, remember "a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase." If a unit never fires, it is not locked on to that target for a Charge.

MrJog wrote:
Which one of these would you like to use? Because none of them seem to support you.

Okay, and since when does a definition mean anything when it (or its synonyms) is not used in the place that you claim is sufficient? Do you not remember that I said that I am not arguing the definition of "resolve"? Do you not remember that I said it is the where and how it is used that is important?

Targetting is never noted as resolving anything in regards to Shooting or a Shooting Attack. The only time something is noted as resolved, finished, or anything synonymous, is after the To Hit rolls are made (or the equivalent). If you think otherwise, please reference the section that it does state it so I can look it up.

Be explicit in my request? Is it that difficult to understand. Imagine we are playing and I am going through the motions as I have described. Imagine we get to the point where I say I choose to not to fire with the rest of the unit. Then what?

If we go with definition 4 b, then we are just finding the mathematical solution of the shooting sequence. There is no real definition of resolve in the BRB. So we are going to have to go with what the dictionary tells us. At this point you are arguing with a dictionary. You are claiming that a word means something other than what the dictionary tells us.

You want to keep talking about when the book begins to use the word resolve in relation to the shooting sequence. Why do we need to find a mathematical solution of anything to nominate a unit to shoot or to choose a target? Resolve comes up when we are required to work out the numbers.

Ok Christoph: back to the sentinel with a plasma cannon an warp spiders. Sentinel targets the spiders, they jump, plasma cannon gets hot.

What do we do now?

MrJog wrote:
Be explicit in my request? Is it that difficult to understand. Imagine we are playing and I am going through the motions as I have described. Imagine we get to the point where I say I choose to not to fire with the rest of the unit. Then what?

If we go with definition 4 b, then we are just finding the mathematical solution of the shooting sequence. There is no real definition of resolve in the BRB. So we are going to have to go with what the dictionary tells us. At this point you are arguing with a dictionary. You are claiming that a word means something other than what the dictionary tells us.

You want to keep talking about when the book begins to use the word resolve in relation to the shooting sequence. Why do we need to find a mathematical solution of anything to nominate a unit to shoot or to choose a target? Resolve comes up when we are required to work out the numbers.

Why do we need a mathematical solution for something that never actually started? And technically, we aren't going through a mathematical solution, we are going through a step by step process. Context provides the definition you use. Which definition best suits a step by step process?

But again, your focus on the definition of resolve is pointless without something to state that "not firing" counts as "completing a Shooting Attack", or similar. If you keep focusing on the the definition alone and ignore context, you will miss any possibility of finding a proper rule-based answer to the questions I have presented.


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Kommissar Kel wrote:Ok Christoph: back to the sentinel with a plasma cannon an warp spiders. Sentinel targets the spiders, they jump, plasma cannon gets hot.

What do we do now?

Lazy. Here you go.

Charistoph wrote:

Bojazz wrote:
The gets hot roll for a blast weapon takes place BEFORE firing. There has been no equivalent roll to hit for a blast weapon that has gotten hot. The shot is never fired, as per the gets hot rules. So yeah, "equivalent of rolling to hit" does mean something to me, but a blast weapon that gets hot doesn't make it that far.

But it takes place after Checking For Range for Selecting a Weapon, and performed right before you place the marker. It's inserted in that nebulous space.where the Rolling To Hit is engaged (in this case the Rolling for Scatter, really). And yes, that is part of why I keep referring to "equivalent", and also have stated "after dice roll" as well. Did you roll a die for Gets Hot?

Charistoph wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:Flickerjumps rules specify that the unit who originally targeted the Warp spiders before the Flickerjump can't target anything else.

"The firing unit cannot choose a different target, even if the target unit is now out of range or line of sight"

Also notice how the rules clearly consider the act of target the Warp spiders equal to firing at it.

I was not aware of this. This doesn't necessarily global equation of targetting=firing, though. It just prevents the same unit from retargetting and shooting again. So if a Heavy Bolter was targetted at them, and it lost LoS, they did not fire a Heavy Weapon so would be free to Charge, if another member still had LoS and only Assault/Pistols were actually shot.

Charistoph wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:You also seem to have no response to yhe Sentinel and Warp Spiders example. Care to explain why tje Sentinel cannot just keep targeting the spiders until the jump out of LOS so long as it continues to get hot each time? Or any unit for that matter?

I actually have addressed them.

For the Warp Spiders, the shooting unit cannot Change Target, so they must either commit to Attacking or not, no option is made to retarget the Warp Spiders, so no option for them to Jump again before Shooting occurs.

As for Gets Hot, I have already explained it. Go back and look it up if you want it so bad. Since you want me to read the entire Shooting Phase which you will not bother quoting or referencing significant parts, you will have no problem answering this smaller challenge.

Found that quote yet for Targeting allows a Shooting Attack to be finished? Heck, even Select A Weapon?

We are discussing at what point the Shooting Phase is resolved.

We agree the steps are:

Zarroc1733 wrote:
What are your rules that support a shot has to be made for it to count? The rules themselves say you can choose not to shoot with certain models. The shooting sequence is
1. Nominate a unit to shoot
2. Choose a target
3. Select a weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Allocate wounds & Remove Casualties

Slightly different scenario to consider:
1-I select my Guardians to shoot
2-I select your Terminators to target
3-I select my catapults to fire
4-I roll all 1's (misses)
5-There are no rolls for wounds
6-There are no wounds to allocate nor casualties to remove

I have not completed all 6 steps.
Is my Shooting Phase resolved?

Mandalmauler wrote:
We are discussing at what point the Shooting Phase is resolved.

We agree the steps are:

Zarroc1733 wrote:
What are your rules that support a shot has to be made for it to count? The rules themselves say you can choose not to shoot with certain models. The shooting sequence is
1. Nominate a unit to shoot
2. Choose a target
3. Select a weapon
4. Roll To Hit
5. Roll To Wound
6. Allocate wounds & Remove Casualties

Slightly different scenario to consider:
1-I select my Guardians to shoot
2-I select your Terminators to target
3-I select my catapults to fire
4-I roll all 1's (misses)
5-There are no rolls for wounds
6-There are no wounds to allocate nor casualties to remove

I have not completed all 6 steps.
Is my Shooting Phase resolved?

Your Shooting Phase is not resolved until all units have resolved their Shooting Attacks or been declared not to fire and any resultant Morale Checks are made as needed, then you move to the Assault Phase.

The Shooting Attack has been resolved at Step 4. Shots have been fired. Snap Shots are stated to be resolved at Ballistic Skill 1 (first use of the word outside of the original outline or demo in the Shooting Sequence).

Even during Select a Weapon it shows in the example that Marine player resolves the Boltgun shots before moving on to the plasma gun, which has to completely resolve before moving on to the missile launcher.

I'd agree with you if the book actually required a roll to hit in order to resolve anything. But it doesn't.

MrJog wrote:
I'd agree with you if the book actually required a roll to hit in order to resolve anything. But it doesn't.

And (for the umpteenth time) the evidence of that is where?

Are you kidding me right now? The burden of proof rests on you to prove it does. The only case you have built so far relies on convincing people to believe in your twisted definition of the word resolve. This is dispite the fact that there is a perfectly sensible definition available to us in the dictionary.

Christoph: none of those quotes answered my question. Your assertions are that without firing no shooting attack has been made and therefore targeting a unit with a shooting attack hasn't happened.

Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?

The rule in question: "In addition to the above(refering to unit charging restrictions), a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's shooting phase."

I stated in the very beginning of this thread that the unit(guardsmen) with split fire needed to still target the breachers in order to charge them because the split firing model is firing at a different unit. You claimed that once targeting happened at least 1 shot needed to be fired to resolve the shooting sequence. Everything else has disproven you. You need to just accept that you are wrong.

Oh, and again the above example disproves your claim that a shooting attack is only resolved after shots are fired. Gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit specifies that no shot is fired. That is why I asked a direct question.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Christoph: none of those quotes answered my question. Your assertions are that without firing no shooting attack has been made and therefore targeting a unit with a shooting attack hasn't happened.

Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?

The rule in question: "In addition to the above(refering to unit charging restrictions), a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's shooting phase."

I stated in the very beginning of this thread that the unit(guardsmen) with split fire needed to still target the breachers in order to charge them because the split firing model is firing at a different unit. You claimed that once targeting happened at least 1 shot needed to be fired to resolve the shooting sequence. Everything else has disproven you. You need to just accept that you are wrong.

Oh, and again the above example disproves your claim that a shooting attack is only resolved after shots are fired. Gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit specifies that no shot is fired. That is why I asked a direct question.

Can you point the difference between that's guardsmen targeting the breachers and split firing , and those guardsmen shooting at the tank? And claiming because i said so it's not a valid one.

As i said before all the *special rules* that affect shooting seems to consider that the rules consider targetting equals to *resolve the shooting*


And about your Sentinel with Plasma cannon shooting at spiders.

1: choose a target
2: check range of weapon
3: resolve shooting and special rules who affect it.
3a Flickerjump: if the spiders manage to get out of LoS or Range your shoot it's considered a miss, you cannot target anything else (unless splitfire allows you to) and the shoot it's considered as resolved according to flickerjump rule)
3b Get's Hot: the rule points that in order to resolve the shoot as normal you must roll a 2+ if fails, wich means the unit is resolving it's firing but *that model's weapon* it's not firing
4: if the unit already fired all their weapons move to next unit

Funily enough Get's Hot it's affected by re-roll abilities just like a normal shooting attack, also since both Flickerjump and Get's hot happens in the instant before rolling the dice the player whose turn is on, can choose wich one resolve first and potentially avoid a Get's hot roll if the unit is our of range or LoS.

And to end english it's not my born language so i'm not sure if the rule that brings all this discussion.

"a unit that fired in the Shooting phase can only charge the unit that it[u] targeted during that turn’s Shooting phase"

that it means the unit or the firing shoots.

MrJog wrote:
Are you kidding me right now? The burden of proof rests on you to prove it does. The only case you have built so far relies on convincing people to believe in your twisted definition of the word resolve. This is dispite the fact that there is a perfectly sensible definition available to us in the dictionary.

No, it is not reliant on a definition of resolve. How many times do I have to tell you this? You are the only one arguing about it.

This is about WHERE/WHEN we are allowed to consider a Shooting Attack as resolved. Get your head out of your backside and pay attention to what I am actually saying.

If the unit does not have any models shoot, did a Shooting Attack actually happen?

To my mind, no. No shooting happened. No Attack was attempted. Therefore, simply Targeting does not equate to resolving a Shooting Attack any more than talking about moving, but nothing changes position, is considered moving.


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 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Christoph: none of those quotes answered my question. Your assertions are that without firing no shooting attack has been made and therefore targeting a unit with a shooting attack hasn't happened.

Do you even know what you are arguing anymore?

The rule in question: "In addition to the above(refering to unit charging restrictions), a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's shooting phase."

I stated in the very beginning of this thread that the unit(guardsmen) with split fire needed to still target the breachers in order to charge them because the split firing model is firing at a different unit. You claimed that once targeting happened at least 1 shot needed to be fired to resolve the shooting sequence. Everything else has disproven you. You need to just accept that you are wrong.

Why should I accept that I am wrong when you have provided absolutely NOTHING to demonstrate your case is valid?

In order for a Split Firing unit to be a Split Firing unit, they have to resolve a Shooting Attack. Where does it state targeting is all it takes to resolve a Shooting Attack? I have asked this for almost every post, and all you have given me is condescension with zero applicable references and quotes.

In order for a unit to have its Charge target locked by the Shooting Phase, it has to have "fired in the shooting phase".

So, no, unless there is some Shooting going on by the rest of the unit, the unit did not actually Split Fire, nor could consider the Breacher Squad a viable Charge Target.

 Charistoph wrote:

MrJog wrote:
We understand what you are saying. We just don't agree. You have made up a new definition of a word.

Either present a case or be seen as trolling.

Then let's attempt this again, because last time you refused to give an answer:

Three units of Crisis suits with different weapons (Unit 1 with MPods, Unit 2 with Plasma, Unit 3 with Fusion). They Coordinate their firepower (CF) to eliminate one target unit. I go through the motions and select missile pods from Unit 1 to shoot and hit/wound enough times to wipe out the target. Last step tells me to select another weapon or stop shooting, but as the target is gone, I'm not able to shoot in any case.

Are you now telling me that Units 2 and 3 have not actually shot yet?

I have demonstrated the case time and again.

There is a written clause in select a weapon that alllows you to choose not to fire that weapon with any given models. That clause has no minimum/maximum limitations on how many models may be chosen not to fire.

There are also several cases, examples of which have been given to you, where the shooting sequence is aborted via special rules before any shots have been fired; but the unit still targeted an enemy unit with a shooting attack. This disproves your claim that the shots must be fired in order to resolve the shooting with that unit.

The charge restriction is quoted, with annotations, in the post you quoted. The restriction is if the unit fired, with split fire and this specific case: the unit has fired as 1 model has used split fire to target a unit that was not the target of the rest of the unit. With split fire the unit must target something other than what the model utilising split fire is shooting at, otherwise you are not using split fire; you are just targeting the unit that model is shooting at. The rest of the charge restriction has nothing to do with the unit firing at its charge target, only that it must charge the unit targeted. As proven above, you do not have to fire any shots in order to have targeted a unit with a shooting attack.

Yes, I have shown or directed you to rules that support my position. You keep asking for proof that you can target without shooting. I keep giving it to you along with examples that show not only can it be done, but the end result of the situation must be that a unit was targeted even though no shots were fired.

Now you need to prove your position. You need to show where in the rules it says you must shoot with a weapon in order to target.

That is the situation being debated: the unit has fired, therefore can only charge the unit it targeted. In order for it to have been a split fire the model that fired had to do so at something other than the unit's target. The unit wished to charge, but all other weapons prevent the charge. Therefore using the above shown rules the unit targets the breachers while firing at a different target with one model and then choose to not fire lasguns with every model at the unit's target. All rules are satisfied and followed to the letter.

 Charistoph wrote:
So, yeah, the Shooting Phase does actually require some attempt To Hit to qualify as actually shooting. I have referenced this numerous times, and it is part of the Shooting Phase. If you can provide evidence before hand, actually reference it or quote it, just do not declare it.

Just to clarify, if I elect to use a flamer, I have not made a shooting attack. Great!

Naw wrote:Then let's attempt this again, because last time you refused to give an answer:

Three units of Crisis suits with different weapons (Unit 1 with MPods, Unit 2 with Plasma, Unit 3 with Fusion). They Coordinate their firepower (CF) to eliminate one target unit. I go through the motions and select missile pods from Unit 1 to shoot and hit/wound enough times to wipe out the target. Last step tells me to select another weapon or stop shooting, but as the target is gone, I'm not able to shoot in any case.

Are you now telling me that Units 2 and 3 have not actually shot yet?

More importantly, you did not Coordinate their Firepower, if I remember the rule correctly (I may not, it has been a while since I read it).

But let's say that they did for argument's sake, Coordinate Firepower treats all three units firing as one unit. Did the Coordinated "unit" shoot? Why yes, yes it did, and Unit 2 and Unit 3 are considered part of the unit.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I have demonstrated the case time and again.

There is a written clause in select a weapon that alllows you to choose not to fire that weapon with any given models. That clause has no minimum/maximum limitations on how many models may be chosen not to fire.

And has been rebutted time and again, this alone does not state that the Shooting Attack is resolved if every model chooses not to fire. Permission to fire is not the issue. The issue is that if you choose not to fire, you are not actually performing a Shooting Attack, are you. If you do not perform a Shooting Attack, you are not resolving a Shooting Attack, are you?

Kommissar Kel wrote:There are also several cases, examples of which have been given to you, where the shooting sequence is aborted via special rules before any shots have been fired; but the unit still targeted an enemy unit with a shooting attack. This disproves your claim that the shots must be fired in order to resolve the shooting with that unit.

Are you speaking of Flickerjump? Special Rules for special situation that override the normal process. It specifically states that you cannot target another unit, which means that shooting unit is stuck with that target. If they cannot shoot, they still are not shooting, are they?

Kommissar Kel wrote:The charge restriction is quoted, with annotations, in the post you quoted. The restriction is if the unit fired, with split fire and this specific case: the unit has fired as 1 model has used split fire to target a unit that was not the target of the rest of the unit. With split fire the unit must target something other than what the model utilising split fire is shooting at, otherwise you are not using split fire; you are just targeting the unit that model is shooting at. The rest of the charge restriction has nothing to do with the unit firing at its charge target, only that it must charge the unit targeted. As proven above, you do not have to fire any shots in order to have targeted a unit with a shooting attack.

With Split Fire, targeting alone is insufficient without targeting alone being able to resolve a Shooting Attack. Split Fire requires after the initial model's shooting that you then "resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target..."

So, again, WHERE does it state that targeting (the first step in setting up a Shooting Attack after selecting a unit to shoot) finishes/completes/RESOLVES a Shooting Attack any more than just Selecting the unit to shoot?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Yes, I have shown or directed you to rules that support my position. You keep asking for proof that you can target without shooting. I keep giving it to you along with examples that show not only can it be done, but the end result of the situation must be that a unit was targeted even though no shots were fired.

You have directed that I review the entire Shooting Phase rules. That is hardly anything specific. Especially as I have pointed out numerous points where resolution is mentioned as occurring that happen later than you suggest.

You have used the rules that models do not have to shoot. Again, that is not demonstratively sufficient to signify a resolution for a Shooting Attack that never actually shoots any more than talking about moving, but never actually repositioning the model counts as moving.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Now you need to prove your position. You need to show where in the rules it says you must shoot with a weapon in order to target.

Why should I when that has never been my case? You seem to be going based on this assumption that I have never once asserted or even hinted.

This has been my case:
1) In order for a unit's Charge target to be locked, it has to fire at that target in the Shooting Phase. Direct from the Charge restriction.

2) In order to complete Split Fire, you have one model resolve its Shooting Attack, and then have the rest of the unit resolve their Shooting Attacks. Direct from the Split Fire rule.

3) In order to resolve a Shooting Attack, you have to have an Attack that Shoots. No mention of completion or resolving of anything is mentioned in the Shooting Sequence till after shots have been fired.

Till me where in that that case that shooting has to be performed before targeting?

Kommissar Kel wrote:That is the situation being debated: the unit has fired, therefore can only charge the unit it targeted. In order for it to have been a split fire the model that fired had to do so at something other than the unit's target. The unit wished to charge, but all other weapons prevent the charge. Therefore using the above shown rules the unit targets the breachers while firing at a different target with one model and then choose to not fire lasguns with every model at the unit's target. All rules are satisfied and followed to the letter.

Incorrect. Targeting alone has yet to be clarified as sufficient to resolve the Shooting Attack that Split Fire requires AND insufficient to satisfy the target it fired at since it did not target it with its firing.

If I choose to target one unit, and then change my mind and shoot at another, would you allow me to Charge that first unit I targeted?

That is the equivalent to what you are asking me to accept.

1) You claim to have rebutted but have never produced a single rule to support your position. I have posted or referenced many.

2) not flickerjump; gets hot and weapons that do not roll to hit. Flickerjump was used as an example of a rule triggered on targeted by a shooting attack. Gets hot is a rule that specifies no shot is fired. The 2 together prove you can target, and then not fire and have everything resolve properly. I could have just as easily used Jink with a skimmer as the targeted unit before the plasma cannon on the sentinel resulted in a gets hot and no shot was fired.

3) Again addressed multiplie times in that that is not what I am arguing. I ammended the first statements with the procedure. It is not Targeting then done. It is targeting, selecting a weapon, choosing all models with that weapon to not fire, then done. I have even broken down the resolving of the 0 to hit rolls attempted results in 0 to wound rolls attemted, results in 0 saves needing to be attempted, results in 0 wounds applied.

4) Your case has been disproven.
4a) for the 3rd time in my last 3 posts: that is not what the charge restriction says. I will quote it for you again:

"In addition to the above, a unit that fired in the shooting phase can only charge the unit that it targeted during that turn's shooting phase."

Due to split fire the guardsmen unit did fire in the shooting phase. They therefore can only charge the unit they TARGETED in the shooting phase. Targeting does not require shots fired as shown.
4b) Never was called into question. It has been shown to you that a shooting attack can be resolved without any shots fired using the rules.
4c) This is where you need to produce a rule. Also completion is mentioned in the begining of the shooting phase rules; I quoted it to you several days ago. That lone Sentinel with a plasma cannon that rolls a gets hot is again an example of a unit being selected to make a shooting attack, choosing a target for that attack, choosing a weapon with which to make the attack, but then not being able to fire due to another rule's involvement. The end result is that the sentinel resolves its shooting attack with no shots fired. It is further proven that the shooting attack did still occur as of step 2 when the warp spiders or skimmer was targeted by the shooting attack and made use of their abilities.

5) No I would not accept you charging at the unit you ultimately did not target. That is also not what I am asking you to accept. I am asking you to accept a charge declared on a unit that was targeted, but 0 models fired at it. If the breachers were not targeted, then the unit could not charge them. Your example of switching targets has nothing to do with this discussion; everything laid out is following the rules as written.

6) The crux of your argument really is an assumption that you must fire a shot for it to be a shooting attack, and that you must fire the shot in order to resolve the shooting attacks. I kept asking you about the sentinel and the warp spiders to show you that the sentinel targeted them with a shooting attack, that then results in no shots being fired, and resolves that shooting attack via 0 hits from 0 hits attempted. If the sentinel is not making a shooting attack when it is targeting, then all of the "when targeted by a shooting attack..." special rules can never function; gets hot, or choosing all models to not fire with the only ranged weapon, would invalidate the "targeted by a shooting attack". The only difference between getting hot and no models firing the weapon is that the latter is voluntary; but it is still a valid and legal choice.