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Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Maybe you missed it, but I hear that Space Marines - including Blood Angels, just got access to Eldar's Fortune power. (and that same lore even includes an invuln nuking power to boot, as well as turning any Librarian into a damned Greater Daemon!)

And BA Devs getting access to Grav cannons alone would be a massive boost. Especially if they can also get a detachment that allows for masses of free razorbacks & drop pods.

BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

Blood Angels have some of the more powerful psykers in the game, nearly on par with grey knights

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

Really?! They are legit one of the most powerful units in the game! Handing out drop pods with that formation to their allies! If there is one army that def needs a nerf, it's ba and their OP formations

Martel732 wrote:

 Ankhalagon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Regardless of the fluff, twc makes the entire ba chapter pointless. And your list of changes doesn't allow ba to survive eldar or fighg twc deathstar.

Thats not a BA-only-problem. That stuff screws most armys up.

Maybe. SM can at least throw a swarm of free obj sec transports at the problem. Eldar are eldar. Tau specialize in bringing down large expensive squads.

It's hard to swallow because ba assault units basically never work as intended b/c 7th ed.

SM also specialise in bringing down large expensive squads with their grav cannons!

Also, why is yet another thread derailed by Martel just so he can whine about BA?

Martel732 wrote:
BA can't field enough libarians to get more than one copy of that power and ba don't have any units worth casting it on anyway. It's hard for ba to cast as well.

Twc can obviously get the same buff as well.

Even if ba could get grav cannons, what would we put them on? Non-skyhammer devs? Okay. They'll die before they can even fire.

It's not that hard to fill out a pair of basic CAD's with minimal Troops tax...
2x 5 Scouts + 2x min-sized Tac squads w/Melta or Heavy flamer & Pod/Razorback.
That gives you access to 4 Librarians - plenty enough to spam a single discipline and basically guarantee at least a couple of the best powers, while also still leaving plenty of pts left over to build a decent Death Company unit.

BA's are lucky enough that quick additions such as the Libby Conclave, Storm Talon & AA Tanks, plus the basic Dreadnought/Scout boosts would bring them up to par. Add in their variation of the Gladius/Lion's Blade and BA's are suddenly just as obnoxious as every other 7.5ed Loyalist Marine.

And while you may never accept it, most GSF's/Lion's Blade detachments do indeed include Grav cannon Devs. Even 2 cannons in a min-sized squad is enough to outright murder most MC's that aren't Riptides/Wraithknights.

Wishlisting is so much easier now. Used to you'd wishlist some awesome power for your army to get, but had to think of some drawback that balanced it out. Now it's just game on.

Grey Knights need a decurion that allows warp charges harnessed on a 3+ and a librarian conclave that allows the librarians to pick their powers. *evil laugh*

thraxdown wrote:
Wishlisting is so much easier now. Used to you'd wishlist some awesome power for your army to get, but had to think of some drawback that balanced it out. Now it's just game on.

Grey Knights need a decurion that allows warp charges harnessed on a 3+ and a librarian conclave that allows the librarians to pick their powers. *evil laugh*

Grey Knights are rumored to be getting their 7.5ed update & Knightcurion detachment as part of the next Warzone Fenris book.

I also predict that whatever the Thousand Sons get, it'll be at least 10x inferior, despite the fact that 1ksons are the one army outside of Daemons or Eldar who can equal or even surpass the psychic might of the GK's.

BA

WS/BS 4 scouts
Dreads w/4 attacks
Sang Priests back to 1-3 per slot
Devestators and tac access to Grav cannons /amps
Access to LSS
Access to Storm Talon
Give them access to Vehicle Squadrons
Make Termies 35 points like in the Vanilla Book
Give them some fething chapter tactics
Give Tycho back Dead Man's Hand
Make DC WS5 again
Give them access to Contemptors and Cataphractii Termies (as a first founding this should be a duuuhhh)
VV should be able to assault from DS again
Sanguinary Guard need access to Storm Shields

Wants
Mephy needs an invuln if he's gonna be 175 pts
Seths Sword needs to be AP3 or 2 (and he needs his nutshot rule back )
Access to AoD formations
Better relics

Not complicated at all. Fixed with a PDF in 15 minutes and it would un-ruin the dex.

It's not that i don't accept it. It's that grav devs are bad w/o skyhammer. I'm not debating whether people use them or not.

I've used 4x libby ba lists before. Still not enough warp charges and librarians are just kinda blech all around. It was a disaster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
BA

WS/BS 4 scouts
Dreads w/4 attacks
Sang Priests back to 1-3 per slot
Devestators and tac access to Grav cannons /amps
Access to LSS
Access to Storm Talon
Give them access to Vehicle Squadrons
Make Termies 35 points like in the Vanilla Book
Give them some fething chapter tactics
Give Tycho back Dead Man's Hand
Make DC WS5 again
Give them access to Contemptors and Cataphractii Termies (as a first founding this should be a duuuhhh)
VV should be able to assault from DS again
Sanguinary Guard need access to Storm Shields

Wants
Mephy needs an invuln if he's gonna be 175 pts
Seths Sword needs to be AP3 or 2 (and he needs his nutshot rule back )
Access to AoD formations
Better relics

Not complicated at all. Fixed with a PDF in 15 minutes and it would un-ruin the dex.

15 rules changes is not complicated? Even with those changes, still inferior to sw. There is no substitue for mcs or in the case of sw, units of mini-mcs. BA being stuck with almost all meqs is a death sentence.

Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

Won't happen cause then Martel won't be able to complain of anything

Would reprinting the CSM 3.5 codex be acceptable to CSM players, or are there updates that should be taken to account for changes in the game like overwatch or being unable to consolidate into another combat?

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If you can't hang with best, is that really a solution?

All ba signature units are joke in the current game. Usually because they die or get crippled before they can assault, but sometimes because a real assault unit swats them like flies. I don't see this changing with any of the fixes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Skyhammer is in AoD book. Even if they didn't get access to AoD formations Grav cannons would be a huge step in the right direction. They may not do as well as you want em to in a meta of riptide wing and mechanized iyanden/scat bikes, but against non-tourney level cheddar I can sure as heck make em work and I'm not exactly the best player in town...

As I said, they could all be slapped onto a single update. 15-20 minutes to write/post it. And SW are the best CC army in the game by a mile. I don't care if BA are #1 in CC, I just want to play my space vampires without that sinking feeling in my gut every time I open the book.

BA lose to da, sm, gk, orks, tyranids, sometimes necrons, eldar wk, ik, and demons in assault. It's not just a sw thing.

You seem to have completely ignored everyone saying that BA need access to the things Vanilla SM have just so you can whine about your admittedly underpowered army. In my FLGS, we consider Blood Angels and Dark Angels to be Space Marines with Chapter Tactics: Blood Angels/Dark Angels respectively. They have access to the same scouts and dreadnoughts, the same Dev squads, and the same formations. Let me tell you: A Blood Angels Skyhammer is freaking brutal! Now stop whining and admit that BA are a quick fix!

Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer? Also, you basically have turned BA into the vanilla marines, so of course that would be a quick fix. What's NOT a quick fix is doing it by other methods. I haven't ignored the posts. But just giving BA grav cannons and 4 attack dreads is not nearly enough. Giving them the formations obviously is, because then they are indistinguishable from vanilla marines. Making them vanilla marines is a trivially obvious quick fix.

Note that with this fix, however, BA signature units would still be a complete joke.

Harlies could make do with a quick fix if you just gave them a Great Harlequin HQ choice. Doesn't fix a lot of the problems, but makes it much easier to put a force together.

Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Grey Knights can do with a quick fix (especially in the case of Space Wolves where you just change a few values to match the SM costs for stuff that should be identical, like the dreadnought).

The biggest one in need of a quick fix is the AdMechs, who are clearly written as one army in mind but was split up due to production deadlines. Imperial Knights can be rolled into this one for some "spring cleaning" of the webpage (cuz, really, you only need one datasheet for the knights and a few for the formations. That's all really it).

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

In regars to Tyranids, really, I think it's just a rules issue that's crushing them right now...
- Synapse needs some re-working, and (I'm no bug expert by any means here), imho, the rule should also give a 4+ FnP in order to help boost those all-important leader bugs. (of which, only a Hive Tyrant is even remotely playable nowadays, thanks to being a possible FMC)

- Their psychic lores are plainly abysmal. Only CSM's are in worse shape. Keep them with their two main lores, but also give them back some access to Biomancy as it would provide a huge amount of added synergies the army is badly lacking in.

- Obviously, the points costing is an issue, but one that's incredibly easy to fix.

- Only "new' unit that really needs focusing on, is adding in a generic entry for Genestealer Cultists.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Besides a 100% brand new model line, (okay, keep the 'Drake & Dinobots - but burn everything else!), Chaos really just needs GW to stop differentiating them by simply making them Marines with 0 special rules!

Our Land Raider is the perfect example of just how stupidly bass akwards our overall design is, and has been over the past decade plus.

I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tyranids are in a weird place in that I think they could be given a quickfix if they just printed all of the formations and rules in one book. However that only makes them playable, and a lot of units still need far more massive tweaks (Warriors, the two new MCs, genestealers, etc...).

In regars to Tyranids, really, I think it's just a rules issue that's crushing them right now...
- Synapse needs some re-working, and (I'm no bug expert by any means here), imho, the rule should also give a 4+ FnP in order to help boost those all-important leader bugs. (of which, only a Hive Tyrant is even remotely playable nowadays, thanks to being a possible FMC)

- Their psychic lores are plainly abysmal. Only CSM's are in worse shape. Keep them with their two main lores, but also give them back some access to Biomancy as it would provide a huge amount of added synergies the army is badly lacking in.

- Obviously, the points costing is an issue, but one that's incredibly easy to fix.

- Only "new' unit that really needs focusing on, is adding in a generic entry for Genestealer Cultists.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Chaos definitely needs a full overhaul; it's rules are so fragmented and dated it's no longer funny. Same goes for Orks.

Besides a 100% brand new model line, (okay, keep the 'Drake & Dinobots - but burn everything else!), Chaos really just needs GW to stop differentiating them by simply making them Marines with 0 special rules!

Our Land Raider is the perfect example of just how stupidly bass akwards our overall design is, and has been over the past decade plus.

Tyranids only have one psychic discipline, and yes, it is not good. Shadows in the Warp also needs to be overhauled, as it doesn't work as intended.

I'd also love to see the Haruspex fixed. It has some really cool rules, and they clearly tried to make it distinctive. But only 3 attacks? WS 3? 6'' movement? Same thing with the Maleceptor. But anyway, I digress.

Martel732 wrote:
Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer?

If you can't see why Assault Marines with meltaguns DSing in turn one is nasty, or why those same marines charging turn one with Furious Charge is equally brutal, I can't help you.

 EnTyme wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why is a BA skyhammer better than any other skyhammer?

If you can't see why Assault Marines with meltaguns DSing in turn one is nasty, or why those same marines charging turn one with Furious Charge is equally brutal, I can't help you.

Meltaguns haven't been good since 7th. It would be nice to actually get to use FC, but regular ASM still aren't scaring anyone even charging at S5.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

Considering that one rule could completely change the dynamic of how Orks play, yes. I would consider that a massive overhaul. It's like how Necron RP went from "roll for all at the end of the phase" to "roll for each unsaved wound". It's a single rule change, but it completely changes how Necrons play (or more specifically, how others deal with Necrons).

 EnTyme wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
I'm surprised so many think Orks need a little overhaul. Honestly, they're a quick fix army.

-reduce points on some models (like Kanz and Deff Dreads, too pricey for how easy they die)
-change Cybork Body back to its 5++
-get rid of Mob Rule, or make it less punishing
-give more characters WAAAGGH!! or give them WAAAGGH!!! bonuses, ala the Dakkajet

The thing is most of those would be big fixes, especially mob rule as it's their racial rule. Some other units, like the Nauts, would need to re-evaluate just what they're suppose to do.

Fixing one rule is a massive overhaul? Not really. And again, for Nauts, point reduction. For less than it's cost, it would be a great unit, same with the Stompa.

Considering that one rule could completely change the dynamic of how Orks play, yes. I would consider that a massive overhaul. It's like how Necron RP went from "roll for all at the end of the phase" to "roll for each unsaved wound". It's a single rule change, but it completely changes how Necrons play (or more specifically, how others deal with Necrons).

I disagree. I see a "complete overhaul" as redesigning units and models and functionally writing a new codex, ala CSM. Seriously, changing the Mob Rule is one of the few things needed to make Orks not total garbage. And it doesn't "completely change the dynamic of how Orks play", it makes them not runaway, take pinning tests, or fail every Leadership test thrown at them. It's in no way comparable to RP.

If you can, please explain to me how changing a LD rule functionally changes how Orks play.