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Jetbikes were used VERY frequently before 7th. Which is actually a good argument as to why they needed no buff at all.

stopcallingmechief wrote:
Is third a win? Is that the new math?

You can have the most ridic list with the best general and still lose in the finals because your warlord's squad failed some dangerous terrain, failed their 2++ rerollable's, failed morale, and fled the field with an 18" flee.

Or you could have been completely trouncing them but they tank shocked you off objectives with their last few models and then the game ended t5.

When top table lists play each other piloted by good generals, it really does often come down to a dice-off to win. And a single loss on your record can knock you all the way back to the general crowd. At Wargamescon, I got knocked all the way to 8th from my loss in the final game. And I'm not trying to say Ben wasn't a really good player or anything (because he is,) but he would've had a VERY hard time winning if he hadn't won the turn-roll-off and chosen to go 2nd.

Long story short, any list in the top 20% usually could've easily won the whole shebang in a slightly altered universe, so calling out the single winning list as the only list worth looking at is incredibly short-sighted, and indicative of a person not experienced with tournament play.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once. That isn't easy, haywire scourges can reliably glance but 4+ jink save means I need to dedicate at least 2 of my 3 Scourge units to that single Wave Serpent to reliably crack it open. Then I need to pour enough splinter rounds into them that they fall down.

I have the options to take the Wraithguard down, but it seems like I have to do so much more work then the Eldar player does. If he gets to fire he will likely kill 2-3 Talosi in a single volly, if i dedicate the a large proportion of my army into taking them down I only succeed in saving my Talosi. How OP they are I don't think I'm allowed an opinion on, there is a sort of 'New codex elitism' that dictates I don't get a say because my army sucks, but i feel they are VERY badly designed. Autokill guns, fast durable transports and not a bad area denial (18'' in all directions) seems to suck a lot of the nuance and skill out of how Eldar used to play.

Repost.

Your right you don't know much about Dark Eldar if you think we're a horde army!!!

Your right of course, Dark Eldar have as much trouble with killing Wraithguard as we do with killing marines. What we *do* have trouble with is killing a Wave Serpent. AV 12 and 4+ jink with serpent shields makes single shot Str 8 lances all but worthless to shoot at you with leaving only Haywire Blasters as the only viable option to take one down. A Talosi is a 4 wound T7 3+/FnP Monstrous Creature that is taken in a Corpse Thief Claw formation, allowing a single unit to consist of 5 models and giving them all scout. I play it because I'd like something different then MSU Venom Spam, which many people consider unfun to play against. Yet this unit is a total liability when Wraithguard are on the table, as each Str D hit is likely to kill a Talosi singlehandedly. It just seems like exceedingly bad design for a unit to be able to force my entire army to concentrate on bringing down that Wave Serpent (needing an average of 6 glances, so 9 Haywire shots, so all 3 of my Scourge units to reliably take it down) and it's occupants otherwise it will delete the most durable force I can possibly field. God help me if you take 2 serpents full! Or worse yet an allied Webway portal! Zero counter play. Might as well play rock paper scissors in that case.

5 Wraithguard will on average only do 6 wounds to Talos, killing 2.

That is 240 points (depending on load out) for the cost of 255 (naked Archon) or 270 (Wave Serpent).

Its a good exchange but not atypical of the sort of returns 7.5 Codexes get if they put their units into the thing they are designed to kill.

If you didn't take Talosi the Wraithguard would be a complete liability. If they blow up a solitary Venom then who cares? They are almost certainly going to then be wiped out next turn.

I agree taking out Wave Serpents is too difficult (especially given DE's weak anti-armour choices) but thats been the case for many years.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Lets have a look at them from a None-Marine stand point. I play Dark Eldar, specifically Coven Dark Eldar with Harlequin allies. In a game against Wraithguard my Corpse Theif Claw is a liability, I have to put everything I have into ensuring those Wraithguard don't fire, not even once.

Why? There is such a thing as "acceptable losses."

The mentality shouldn't be "lose no models." The mentality should be "mitigate losses to 210 points or less."

Your right you don't know much about Dark Eldar if you think we're a horde army!!!

Relative to marines? They are. Warriors are only 8 ppm.

Raiders are only 55 ppm.

Venoms are only 55 ppm.

What we *do* have trouble with is killing a Wave Serpent. AV 12 and 4+ jink with serpent shields makes single shot Str 8 lances all but worthless to shoot at you with leaving only Haywire Blasters as the only viable option to take one down.

Again, I don't know that much about the dark eldar army.

The last person I played against consistently was taking down rhinos with a relatively high number of hayway shots at semi-close to medium range.

It made using the flamers on my assault marines against his open topped transports all the sweeter.

A Talosi is a 4 wound T7 3+/FnP Monstrous Creature that is taken in a Corpse Thief Claw formation, allowing a single unit to consist of 5 models and giving them all scout. I play it because I'd like something different then MSU Venom Spam, which many people consider unfun to play against.

Again, I don't know enough about the dark eldar codex to comment.

Wait. They're only 4 wounds? Good luck to one surviving a round of D-Cannons to the face...

Tyel wrote:
5 Wraithguard will on average only do 6 wounds to Talos, killing 2.

That is 240 points (depending on load out) for the cost of 255 (naked Archon) or 270 (Wave Serpent).

Its a good exchange but not atypical of the sort of returns 7.5 Codexes get if they put their units into the thing they are designed to kill.

If you didn't take Talosi the Wraithguard would be a complete liability. If they blow up a solitary Venom then who cares? They are almost certainly going to then be wiped out next turn.

I agree taking out Wave Serpents is too difficult (especially given DE's weak anti-armour choices) but thats been the case for many years.

Unless those wraithguard are armed with D-Scythes as they almost always are. Then it becomes a matter of how they are positioned relative to the Talos Formation. If they hit 3 models with their flame templates each or on average hit 3 then those 3 are dead. IF they somehow manage to get 4 or even god forbid the whole unit of 5 (really hard to do) then all 5 are dead. Strength D-1, Ignores cover AND is AP2, So no jink, no cover of any kind, no armor save of any kind and you can't use FNP against D hits so gg.