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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 20:06:51
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Hellacious Havoc
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I was playing a game this weekend, Necron v. Space Marines, and was using a Annihilation Nexus formation so I could use my dust collecting pie plate when my opponent landed a drop pod right in front of my Doomsday Ark. Once the doors were down his Iron Clad came out on the opposing side and sat there for a turn (after missing his melta shots). On my turn I wanted to shoot it with my Low Power shot, however my opponent argued that a drop pod contains so many things such as that missile launcher and pylons that I would not be able to see or for that matter shoot through it. Not knowing what to cite, I went with it, but it kept being a problem as I was basically wedged in from that point on due to terrain, allowing him to run up a squad straight behind it to be out of sight. Essentially making my Ark a sitting duck without being able to shoot.
Can you shoot large/small blast weapons through drop pods? If so, what can I cite if my opponent contests it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 20:12:08
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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sturgeondtd wrote:I was playing a game this weekend, Necron v. Space Marines, and was using a Annihilation Nexus formation so I could use my dust collecting pie plate when my opponent landed a drop pod right in front of my Doomsday Ark. Once the doors were down his Iron Clad came out on the opposing side and sat there for a turn (after missing his melta shots). On my turn I wanted to shoot it with my Low Power shot, however my opponent argued that a drop pod contains so many things such as that missile launcher and pylons that I would not be able to see or for that matter shoot through it. Not knowing what to cite, I went with it, but it kept being a problem as I was basically wedged in from that point on due to terrain, allowing him to run up a squad straight behind it to be out of sight. Essentially making my Ark a sitting duck without being able to shoot.
Can you shoot large/small blast weapons through drop pods? If so, what can I cite if my opponent contests it?
If you have line of sight you can shoot.
No one will be able to tell you if your Doomsday Ark could or could not draw Line of Sight to any given squad that day, as we were not there.
Get down and trace Line of Sight and see for yourself.
large/small blast weapons are the same as any other weapons when it comes to Line of Sight. you actually have to try to trace Line of Sight and see for yourself if something is visible as a target.
Check the Line of Sight rules.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 20:31:49
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Hellacious Havoc
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You could see the models through it, however my opponent said that drop pods act as if they are solid and no matter what, you cannot see through it.
So does this mean I can shoot through it? What cover save would they get?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 20:38:06
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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The drop pod would have granted a 5+ cover save due to being an intervening model, but otherwise, True Line of Sight is all that is needed to target a unit. I've never seen a rule that state a drop pod always acts as a solid model. Never be afraid to ask for a rules reference.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/18 20:38:57
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 20:52:58
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Hellacious Havoc
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Do you know of anywhere I could site that would say this besides the general LOS portion of the BRB?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 21:01:11
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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sturgeondtd wrote:Do you know of anywhere I could site that would say this besides the general LOS portion of the BRB?
What other citation do you need? If you already have a rules quote, the burden is on your opponent to present a superseding rule.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/18 21:01:29
2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 21:06:55
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Hellacious Havoc
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A specific citation is not necessary but it would be helpful to know if this is explicitly stated anywhere in the rule book. My opponent was trying to pull a bunch of stuff which caused me to have to go through the rule book and point to the rules for him, so if there is something that could, without a doubt, shut down his reasoning, that would be all the better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/18 21:08:42
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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sturgeondtd wrote:A specific citation is not necessary but it would be helpful to know if this is explicitly stated anywhere in the rule book. My opponent was trying to pull a bunch of stuff which caused me to have to go through the rule book and point to the rules for him, so if there is something that could, without a doubt, shut down his reasoning, that would be all the better.
The True Line of Sight rules do just that.
if he still says that drop pods are solid, ask him to show you the rule that says that. (He will not be able to, as it does not exist in 40K).
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 00:42:53
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Pewling Menial
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If it's any help... In tournaments drop pods doors are considered down even if they're glued shut, basically you ignore them. So they provide cover saves but you can see through them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 01:34:24
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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gdzilla wrote:If it's any help... In tournaments drop pods doors are considered down even if they're glued shut, ...
Or to be more precise: In tournaments that make that ruling, drop pod doors are considered down even if they're glued shut.
It's not a universal thing, although it is quite common.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 02:01:27
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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More-over, if he shot at your Doomsday Ark with his dread's melta, but then said you couldn't see him to shoot, there are some serious shenanigans afoot.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 03:08:36
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Dakka Veteran
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Check the sm book. I think it's there. They are an open topped vehicle as well. So the doors stay opened. Not closed. You can see through but get a cover save.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 03:49:30
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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morganfreeman wrote:More-over, if he shot at your Doomsday Ark with his dread's melta, but then said you couldn't see him to shoot, there are some serious shenanigans afoot.
Not necessarily. Due to vehicles drawing LOS from their weapons, it's entirely possible for one vehicle to be able to shoot another, while their target can't draw LOS to return fire.
Righteousrob wrote:Check the sm book. I think it's there. They are an open topped vehicle as well. So the doors stay opened. Not closed. You can see through but get a cover save.
There is nothing in the rules for open-topped vehicles that would require the pod's doors to be modelled in the open position.
You're possibly thinking of the line in the pod entry that refers to the hatches being 'blown'... but this is just fluff with no correllation to actual rules. There is no more requirement to open the doors on the drop pod than there is to open them on any other vehicle.
Of course, with the doors shut you'll have a hard time firing the pod's weapon... but that's a different matter entirely.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 04:31:35
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Not as Good as a Minion
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Righteousrob wrote:Check the sm book. I think it's there. They are an open topped vehicle as well. So the doors stay opened. Not closed. You can see through but get a cover save.
Open-Topped does not mean the unit gets to ignore the model for shooting through it, nor does it matter how it gets modeled (as Insaniak pointed out).
Open-Topped puts Entry Points as the entire hull, puts Fire Points for the entire hull and for full Transport Capacity, and makes the Vehicle a little easier to Explodes! (or in some cases, able to Explodes!). That is it.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 04:49:50
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Your opponent was right that there are all sorts of worky bits inside the drop pod that could block a weapon attempting to shoot through, however the chances of the shot being blocked in this way is represented by the cover save given to troops hiding behind the drop pod.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 05:11:05
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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insaniak wrote: gdzilla wrote:If it's any help... In tournaments drop pods doors are considered down even if they're glued shut, ...
Or to be more precise: In tournaments that make that ruling, drop pod doors are considered down even if they're glued shut.
It's not a universal thing, although it is quite common.
And not at all RAW.
RAW, as you know, goes by True Line of Sight.
I find playing a drop pods doors to be considered down even if they're glued shut, to be more problems than it solves, personally speaking of course.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 14:51:31
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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insaniak wrote:
Not necessarily. Due to vehicles drawing LOS from their weapons, it's entirely possible for one vehicle to be able to shoot another, while their target can't draw LOS to return fire.
At least based on what the OP is saying, his opponent was saying that he flatly could not fire through the drop-pod because it was essentially solid, not because his weapons could specifically not draw LoS.
So essentially, again based on what the OP said, he fired his dread through it but then turned around and said the 'Cron player could not fire through the drop-pod because it was a vehicle.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 16:34:03
Subject: Re:Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
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Game uses true line of sight. As long as you can see the dreadnought on the other side the doomsday arch can fire. The dreadnought would receive a 5+ cover save due to the intervening models rule. It is in the cover save section of the BRB.
Side note, if the drop pod doors do not open (glue shut) they are still believe to be in the down position when landing. There is a section in the rule book for modeling that talks about moving parts on a model and them being glue in position.
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Armies:
The Iron Waagh: 10,000+ 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-7-1
Salamanders: 5,000 8th Edition Tournament Record: 4-2
Ultramarines: 4,000
Armored Battle Company (DKoK): 4000
Elysians: 500
Khorne Daemons: 2500
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 18:39:53
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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So back before the true line of sight, drop pods always granted a +5 save for shooting through them. They also had a rule that said the doors had to come down when they landed. Both of those are gone now.
I've seen people argue on the internet that they can glue their pod doors shut and use them as LoS blocking terrain because there is nothing in the BRB or codex that prohibits it. They use other vehicle doors being glued shut, and other vehicles blocking line of sight as their arguments.
Personally, I wouldn't play against those people, that is just trying too hard to ruin something that is, to me, a recreational activity.
In this case, get down low and look through the drop pod. I know some people who bring laser pointers. Line of sight is a pain sometimes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 19:27:16
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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Glitcha wrote:Side note, if the drop pod doors do not open (glue shut) they are still believe to be in the down position when landing. There is a section in the rule book for modeling that talks about moving parts on a model and them being glue in position.
Again, there is no such rule.
There is a section in the rulebook that talks about moving weapons on the model and what to do if they are glued in position. You're free to do whatever you want with doors.
gwarsh41 wrote:So back before the true line of sight, drop pods always granted a +5 save for shooting through them.
40K has always had true line of sight, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
They also had a rule that said the doors had to come down when they landed.
No such rule has ever existed in 40K.
People have been making the claim that the pod rules require the doors to be open ever since the pod was introduced as an actual unit in the 4th edition codex... but it's always been based in the same bit of fluff, and not actually a requirement of the rules.
I've seen people argue on the internet that they can glue their pod doors shut and use them as LoS blocking terrain because there is nothing in the BRB or codex that prohibits it. They use other vehicle doors being glued shut, and other vehicles blocking line of sight as their arguments.
Personally, I wouldn't play against those people, that is just trying too hard to ruin something that is, to me, a recreational activity.
I'm lost... what is being 'ruined' by treating a LOS-blocking vehicle as if it blocks LOS...?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 20:07:02
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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insaniak wrote:I'm lost... what is being 'ruined' by treating a LOS-blocking vehicle as if it blocks LOS...?
Modeled as intended, it is not a LoS-blocking vehicle. It has gaps that can be shot through. Gluing the doors shut would fall under my description of MFA. I agree that this is not a person I would play against.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 20:21:08
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin
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insaniak wrote: Glitcha wrote:Side note, if the drop pod doors do not open (glue shut) they are still believe to be in the down position when landing. There is a section in the rule book for modeling that talks about moving parts on a model and them being glue in position.
Again, there is no such rule.
There is a section in the rulebook that talks about moving weapons on the model and what to do if they are glued in position. You're free to do whatever you want with doors.
gwarsh41 wrote:So back before the true line of sight, drop pods always granted a +5 save for shooting through them.
40K has always had true line of sight, so I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
They also had a rule that said the doors had to come down when they landed.
No such rule has ever existed in 40K.
People have been making the claim that the pod rules require the doors to be open ever since the pod was introduced as an actual unit in the 4th edition codex... but it's always been based in the same bit of fluff, and not actually a requirement of the rules.
I've seen people argue on the internet that they can glue their pod doors shut and use them as LoS blocking terrain because there is nothing in the BRB or codex that prohibits it. They use other vehicle doors being glued shut, and other vehicles blocking line of sight as their arguments.
Personally, I wouldn't play against those people, that is just trying too hard to ruin something that is, to me, a recreational activity.
I'm lost... what is being 'ruined' by treating a LOS-blocking vehicle as if it blocks LOS...?
Check old oop codex under transport rules for drop pods.
You misunderstood that last sentence. What would ruin the game is facing an opponent who glues their doors shut and argues they are LoS blocking. Especially considering they will attempt to fire the weapons from within them. From your response I'm guessing your either looking for an internet argument, or glued the doors shut on your drop pods. For me, the game is about relaxing, not winning, which is why facing people who do this sort of stuff ruins the game, as they are just interested in winning. Its the same type of people who go into arguments with "the rules don't say I can't!" that ruin the hobby.
Common sense and good sportsmanship will go a lot further than reading between the lines and scheming up ways to win.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 20:22:24
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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EnTyme wrote:Modeled as intended, it is not a LoS-blocking vehicle.
Modelled as 'intended', the doors are able to open and close.
If the doors are closed, there is no practical difference between a pod with the doors glued shut or a pod that just has them closed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 20:22:46
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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EnTyme wrote: insaniak wrote:I'm lost... what is being 'ruined' by treating a LOS-blocking vehicle as if it blocks LOS...?
Modeled as intended, it is not a LoS-blocking vehicle. It has gaps that can be shot through. Gluing the doors shut would fall under my description of MFA. I agree that this is not a person I would play against.
Why?
Gluing the doors shut is easier for transport of the model, and the Storm Bolter can not shoot.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 20:28:21
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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It doesn't say what you're claiming.
Seriously, this has been getting brought up, and subsequently debunked, for over a decade now.
What would ruin the game is facing an opponent who glues their doors shut and argues they are LoS blocking.
But... if the doors are shut, they are LOS blocking. I don't understand the problem.
It's a much bigger problem to have the doors shut and treat the pod as still being open, because it's practically impossible to determine what should and should not be able to be seen through it.
For me, the game is about relaxing, not winning, which is why facing people who do this sort of stuff ruins the game, as they are just interested in winning.
That's a bit of a massive generalisation there.
I've come across quite a few players who glued the doors of their pods shut because they take up too much room on the table with them open, or because they flop about in transit.
For me, playing against those sorts of pods would be far more 'relaxing' just treating them as the actual model on the table, rather than trying to pretend that they can be seen through when they physically can't.
Common sense and good sportsmanship will go a lot further than reading between the lines and scheming up ways to win.
As does assuming that not everyone who does things differently to how you think they should be done is doing it solely to find some tricky way to scheme a win.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 22:01:07
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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DeathReaper wrote: EnTyme wrote: insaniak wrote:I'm lost... what is being 'ruined' by treating a LOS-blocking vehicle as if it blocks LOS...?
Modeled as intended, it is not a LoS-blocking vehicle. It has gaps that can be shot through. Gluing the doors shut would fall under my description of MFA. I agree that this is not a person I would play against.
Why?
Gluing the doors shut is easier for transport of the model, and the Storm Bolter can not shoot.
You could also put a rubber band around the model and not have to worry about being accused of being a cheesemonger.
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2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 22:03:05
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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EnTyme wrote: You could also put a rubber band around the model and not have to worry about being accused of being a cheesemonger. I don't like ruining my paintjob thanks. And why is gluing the doors shut being a cheesemonger? It is not MFA, it is just putting the model together. It is not modifying the model to gain an advantage.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 22:04:15
"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 22:46:55
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Fixture of Dakka
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You gain the advantage of LOS blocking you put where you like.
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tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 22:49:15
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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[MOD]
Making Stuff
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pm713 wrote:You gain the advantage of LOS blocking you put where you like.
You get that with the doors closed regardless of whether or not they're glued that way...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/04/22 22:51:18
Subject: Blast weapons thru drop pods?
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
Ankh Morpork
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If you have a problem with someone gluing the doors on their model and wanting to play their model according to the rules, with the advantages and disadvantages that entails, then I think the real issue is with you, not them.
My preferred way to play with my drop pods with the doors glued shut is to simply allow units being targeted with a drop pod between themselves and the firer to generally claim a 5+ cover save, while myself approximating range and line of sight for the storm bolter.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 22:53:34
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