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Ok so started collecting 40k about a year ago, went a bit nuts and bought a small hill of unpainted plastic. After that I then decided on an army to collect "Raven Wing + Blood Angels".

At the moment I am working on my 500pts of raven wing, to do this I went on ebay and bought 3 more sets of the three bikers that came with the dark vengance set. They are all modded with diffrent weapons like flammers and one has an interagoter chaplins top half stuck on the captins bottom half for the HQ.

Q. Will GW staff get upset that I am blatently abusing starter sets from ebay to spam bikes?

Yes. They will be very angry and might try to kill you.

If you are asking about the company: Yes, but do it anyway their stuff is overpriced.

If you are talking about a local GW store because it is the only place you can play: Maybe, but if they do that's not a good employee and assuming you are legally buying models there still isn't a reason you can't.

I don't see why they'd care. Maybe if you went into a store and started telling everyone to buy models from eBay only.

What fun is there for your opponent if you purposely "abuse" a list build?

You come first. Always.

If this is the best way for you to save cash, just do it.

Maybe, I mean supposedly the reason they want to more "branded" starters with molded iconography (see: Dark Angels) is because Black Reach (I think Black Reach) had generic Marines so everyone and their mother were buying them up on eBay. So ever since then, it's been specific chapters that can't easily be reconfigured to other ones without a lot of conversion work. Which sucks because I for example like the DA models, but wanted to do a successor chapter :(

As far as actually caring, no. I'm not sure if a GW store would care unless you like walked in bragging about how you got all these bikes cheap on eBay, but any store would think you were being a d-bag for that regardless.

Your local store might not like it if you don't buy your models there but you do use there tables.

GW doesn't care.

GW stores provide a service of sale of miniatures and gaming equipment.

You found alternative but legal ways to source these official miniatures. They are not recasts nor alternative models.

It's nice of you to care about the feelings of the store owner, but he doesn't provide the tables as a service : you don't pay for it, they are not reserved to customers who exclusively buy GW models.

If the store owner is unhappy with you doing that, he'll tell you. But pressuring the customer into buying models where he plays is not a good business practice.

I can chime in as a former GW "Black Shirt", i.e. Store Manager.

Unofficially... If I sell it in my store OR via direct order, DON'T talk about how you can get it cheaper elsewhere. That undermines the store in a very real way and is bad for business. If someone asks where you got all your Bikes, simply tell them that they're available in the Dark Vengeance set and refer them to the store staff.

Remember, the store manager's livelihood and ability to pay his rent, feed his family and generally continue to survive is contingent upon you buying models in his store. If you buy mainly on eBay and tell others to do the same, don't be surprised if you're asked to leave or prevented from using the store's freebies... painting space, gaming tables, events, etc. You're literally making it harder for the store manager to afford room and board. If you don't want to buy from the store, that's fine... don't expect to play or be welcome in the store either.

I know that sounds a little harsh, but I've run into so many people who just don't seem to realize that every time they said "don't buy that here, you can get it cheaper online" that they're actively punching the store manager in the wallet. Fewer store sales directly equates to a pay cut in GW's salary model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreyCrow wrote:
If the store owner is unhappy with you doing that, he'll tell you. But pressuring the customer into buying models where he plays is not a good business practice.

It is literally one of the best business practices possible. Pretty much any retail store's continued existence is based on trying to get people to buy stuff from your store.

It's also about providing a reason to beyond "This is my job", because that's akin to asking for charity. Now a game store, GW or otherwise, has its benefits/drawbacks, so you aren't wrong necessarily. But it's one of those situations where if all you provide is table space, that's not much to entice people without appealing to the fact that if you lose your job you'll be homeless etc. again, the charity defense (most FLGS seem to do this, the old "This business is my livelihood" approach). A GW store has its own reasons for shopping there, so they by default offer a bit more than usual (at the cost of no discounts though).

WayneTheGame wrote:
It's also about providing a reason to beyond "This is my job", because that's akin to asking for charity. Now a game store, GW or otherwise, has its benefits/drawbacks, so you aren't wrong necessarily. But it's one of those situations where if all you provide is table space, that's not much to entice people without appealing to the fact that if you lose your job you'll be homeless etc. again, the charity defense (most FLGS seem to do this, the old "This business is my livelihood" approach). A GW store has its own reasons for shopping there, so they by default offer a bit more than usual (at the cost of no discounts though).

I absolutely wasn't using the charity defense. People shopped in my store because I was (hopefully) personable, ran regular gaming events, ran regular painting classes and competitions, ran ongoing campaigns, acted as "matchmaker" for new to the area gamers, provided list building advice, etc, etc.

I enticed you into spending money in my store with all of the above.

The "charity defense" is more of an "I get that you might not want to buy something today, but please don't come into my store and actively undermine me as it makes it harder for me to pay my rent and buy food" sort of thing.

If you want to use the amenities, but not buy anything today? Fine. You want to use the amenities, but not buy anything ever? We're eventually going to talk about how the amenities are there for paying customers. You want to use the amenities, not buy anything and talk other customers out of buying things? You're going to be asked to change your behavior or leave pretty quickly.

Agreed. If they're GW models, no-one's going to bat an eyelid, and - if it's done subtly - for that matter I doubt a store manager is going to notice if there's the odd shapeways part in there.

Where it gets a bit rude is deliberately and overtly pointing out how you got a better deal than that shop is offering.

That's not GW specific; if you stood in the middle of a supermarket looking in every passing customer's trolley and saying "that item would be cheaper at discount store X - did you know that?" I'm pretty sure you'd be asked to leave fairly swiftly and I can't see anyone not thinking they're justified in doing so.

Thank you guys, now I know

Yea I am not oblivious when it comes to capitasim and the need for local stores to make local sales. I do what I can to support my local GW but I really like the raven wing in the starter set over the box set.

locarno24 wrote:
Agreed. If they're GW models, no-one's going to bat an eyelid, and - if it's done subtly - for that matter I doubt a store manager is going to notice if there's the odd shapeways part in there.

Where it gets a bit rude is deliberately and overtly pointing out how you got a better deal than that shop is offering.

That's not GW specific; if you stood in the middle of a supermarket looking in every passing customer's trolley and saying "that item would be cheaper at discount store X - did you know that?" I'm pretty sure you'd be asked to leave fairly swiftly and I can't see anyone not thinking they're justified in doing so.

Interesting. That might be because miniature wargaming is a niche market.

When I window-shop around town, I see the occasional 'find it cheaper? We'll match the price'. Which isn't ideal for a business, but better than losing out to a competitor.

So would a GW store care if you used a GW Balrog for a Bloodthirster? Sure its not a bloodthirster model but it was still a GW product.

No, the whole point of the starter sets is to get people to purchase the models. They know that the vast majority of people who purchase them will eventually go on to purchase other models, even if they do buy multiples of the starter set units.

 Xerics wrote:
So would a GW store care if you used a GW Balrog for a Bloodthirster? Sure its not a bloodthirster model but it was still a GW product.

Tricky question. Best practice is to use the actual model or a VERY close approximation/conversion. This is to prevent confusing new players who might not know all the models and might not understand proxying. My rule was that we expected WYSIWYG, but would allow "rule of cool" conversions. That set a nice, even expectation. Ultimately, as store manager, I had final say.

The Balrog is a bad example because we were instructed at the time not to allow LotR and 40k/Fantasy stuff to mix on the tables. Had something to do with the LotR license. Nobody played LotR in my store, so it never really came up.

 Xerics wrote:
So would a GW store care if you used a GW Balrog for a Bloodthirster? Sure its not a bloodthirster model but it was still a GW product.

Don't know if the manager will, but if you were playing with me I would sure as hell would. I don't spend all this money on models and paints for someone to use a centrepiece model like a BT as something completely different. If it was suitably converted/painted then sure, go for it. But as soon as you bring a Dreadnought as an IK I'll just ask for you to not use it.

 Kriswall wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

GreyCrow wrote:
If the store owner is unhappy with you doing that, he'll tell you. But pressuring the customer into buying models where he plays is not a good business practice.

It is literally one of the best business practices possible. Pretty much any retail store's continued existence is based on trying to get people to buy stuff from your store.

It isn't, at all. First of all, please note that I did not say "force the customer" to only bring models he purchased at the store with clear rules as in "show me your purchase certificate and I'll allow them on my tables.". I said "pressure", as in make the consumer feel that he is a dbag if he brings models that he purchased elsewhere.

Secondly, it is a bad business practice because the service provided isn't clear for the consumer. Is the retail store simply selling models ? Is the retail store "renting" table space (against buying from him exclusively for instance) ?

Thirdly, consumers are fickle. They are not going to go towards businesses that put high barriers to service unless there is absolutely no alternative. If there are 2 gaming stores in town, both with tables, the one that starts to impose a limit on which models can be played on the table based on whether or not they were purchased there will lose a lot of its player traffic to the store that doesn't, and that second store will generate more sales due to more traffic.

Trying to get people to buy stuff from your store, yes, but the basis of any transaction is mutual benefit, not forcing people to buy through a compound business model (where you charge something else for another service, in which case minis for playing on the table).

In that retailer example, he could simply set up a membership card that provides discounts on repeated purchases as well as free access to the tables, and charge a fee for renting the tables for other players (and yet allow both player bases to bring whatever model they want). Now, not only does the store owner drives repeated sales through discounts because customers have a higher interest in going to his place over a GW hobby store, but he also capitalizes on people who doesn't buy at his place through charging for the use of tables for non members. Everybody's winning there, including the store owner. That's a better business practice.

I don't see why people are so uppity about buying models on ebay and such. Someone still bought them from GW (unless they were stolen) so GW still got their cut. I personally don't like my LGS so I have a 4x6 board that I roll out my gamemat on. I also have 7 building that I built from 2 boxes of imperial sector boxes and 5 craters in addition to a crap ton of heroscape terrain that I can substitute in there. I can't leave everything set up all the time cause I just don't have that kind of space... yet.

I guess not. GW has already priced this into the system.

 Xerics wrote:
I don't see why people are so uppity about buying models on ebay and such. Someone still bought them from GW (unless they were stolen) so GW still got their cut.

That's not what people are talking about here. A simple reading of the thread would tell you that.

Whether or not GW "got their cut" does not matter to the manager of a GW shop. What matters to them is their shop's sales numbers.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I don't see why people are so uppity about buying models on ebay and such. Someone still bought them from GW (unless they were stolen) so GW still got their cut.

That's not what people are talking about here. A simple reading of the thread would tell you that.

Whether or not GW "got their cut" does not matter to the manager of a GW shop. What matters to them is their shop's sales numbers.

Agreed. I think this is something that many customers just don't understand. There were many times where I spent time with a customer, convincing them that they should buy a new unit. They would then go home, buy it online from GW and have it shipped to the store for pick up. I got zero credit for that sale. 100% of the credit went to the online store's ledger. In that sense, when a regular customer buys from the online store or a different physical GW location, it feels like a slap in the face.

GW Store Managers don't get paid to improve GW's overall sales. They get paid to improve one specific store location's sales. If sales decline, they take a pay cut and risk the store closing. Anyone who pays attention to GW stores in the US will note that they close all the time. It's rare to see a store that has been in the same location for more than 3-5 years.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I don't see why people are so uppity about buying models on ebay and such. Someone still bought them from GW (unless they were stolen) so GW still got their cut.

That's not what people are talking about here. A simple reading of the thread would tell you that.

Whether or not GW "got their cut" does not matter to the manager of a GW shop. What matters to them is their shop's sales numbers.

Agreed. I think this is something that many customers just don't understand. There were many times where I spent time with a customer, convincing them that they should buy a new unit. They would then go home, buy it online from GW and have it shipped to the store for pick up. I got zero credit for that sale. 100% of the credit went to the online store's ledger. In that sense, when a regular customer buys from the online store or a different physical GW location, it feels like a slap in the face.

GW Store Managers don't get paid to improve GW's overall sales. They get paid to improve one specific store location's sales. If sales decline, they take a pay cut and risk the store closing. Anyone who pays attention to GW stores in the US will note that they close all the time. It's rare to see a store that has been in the same location for more than 3-5 years.

That's something interesting, so if you ship to store from GW's online store, the store doesn't get credit? I've only been to a GW store once, is that why they had a sort of kiosk there, so if you order it from that the store gets credit?

Kriswall's explanation is also why FW is typically not welcome in GW stores.

My local GW manager loves FW, praised the Primarch models when we talked privately and even has a Warhound on display, but can't permit the use of FW models in their gaming and frowns upon people advocating that others go buy them instead since, well, it's flatly lost sales for her and means less food on the table.

I wish GW would make models delivered to a local brick and mortar store (including FW) count as sales from that store.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I don't see why people are so uppity about buying models on ebay and such. Someone still bought them from GW (unless they were stolen) so GW still got their cut.

That's not what people are talking about here. A simple reading of the thread would tell you that.

Whether or not GW "got their cut" does not matter to the manager of a GW shop. What matters to them is their shop's sales numbers.

Agreed. I think this is something that many customers just don't understand. There were many times where I spent time with a customer, convincing them that they should buy a new unit. They would then go home, buy it online from GW and have it shipped to the store for pick up. I got zero credit for that sale. 100% of the credit went to the online store's ledger. In that sense, when a regular customer buys from the online store or a different physical GW location, it feels like a slap in the face.

GW Store Managers don't get paid to improve GW's overall sales. They get paid to improve one specific store location's sales. If sales decline, they take a pay cut and risk the store closing. Anyone who pays attention to GW stores in the US will note that they close all the time. It's rare to see a store that has been in the same location for more than 3-5 years.

Thats just bad business, no wonder the local store here tanked (the stock was bad and it was not an ideal location, plus the guy they hired was nice and a good painter but he did not know much about the game)

It almost seems like GW wants you to fail in the modern purchasing economy that they seemingly refuse to acknowledge. Luckily we have a very nice hobbytown with a lot of tables and a nice 10-20% discount on everything. It probably helps that warhammer is only part of its business. Plus its got a rockin xwing crowd too.

How are the GW store staff going to know they are ebayed pieces as opposed to parts you "legitimately got"?
I mean, unless you go in with a megaphone and bleat about it, they wont know.
Hence, zero problem.
A flamer is a flamer, a chaplains top half, his top half.

....Personally? As many others have said they don't care as long as you don't go in trumpetting that you got them cheaper from ebay.

While local store managers might get snippy it wasn't bought from their store...how can they prove that? You could have easily been bought the additional stuff as a gift from a family member, you could have gotten then from GW direct online, you could have gotten them while on holiday from another store. GW have no way of determining where you got the miniatures from so it's a non-issue.

With regards to them being modified? Conversions. Conversions exist and are encouraged within the hobby. They can't fault you for conversions. And no one has ever said the miniatures from the starter sets have to be used 'as is'. And to be fair, no one can criticise you for building up an army from starter sets - sure, they're generally cheaper than the same miniatures bought seperately...but at the cost of being less flexible in terms of components and bits.

It seriously is a non-issue. Unless you trump about it in the store, on their facebook page or whatever...no one will truly care.

Even then, as salty as GW are about ebay and local FLGS' practices...these are often the only places to get hold of older miniatures that GW have long discontinued - something that is very important if your army has a particular theme, IG regiment or style.

If you're finding a good deal to buy models; do it. End of story.

 IronMaster wrote:
If you're finding a good deal to buy models; do it. End of story.

This is how I feel. You just aren't allowed to complain about your local GW store or FLGS going out of business if you buy your stuff second hand or from an online discounter. By doing so, you're a contributing factor to local stores closing. If you're ok with that, awesome. Go crazy. If you want to make sure your local store sticks around, buy things from them.

...unless the store sells a lot of Magic the Gathering. Then it doesn't matter. The store will be around forever. (only half joking... MtG pays the rent at LOTS of stores)