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 Yarium wrote:
It's fine to have an army that's about losing models instead of making saves, but the real issue with it is that you lose distance. When 15 of my 30 haunts die, my 6 inch move next turn is almost entirely just recovering lost distance. But if I group close together, then I die even faster to flamers and blasts. It's lose-lose. I'd like to see units of larger than 10 models be allowed to remove casualties from anywhere in the squad rather than closest to closest.

I can see how that would buff assault armies.

I don't like the idea. It makes sense that the closest units should die first.

That's why nobody who values his life wants to be on "the front line."

The game used to work that way (remove models as you see fit, not necessarily the closest), and it was smooth and efficient. No need for bogging the game down with random wound allocation nonsense and measuring which models are closest.

Further, its just as fluffy. A blast doesn't discriminate where the closest soldier is. A massed volley of lasguns doesn't necessarily kill only the closest soldier. Bullets/lasers can and will hit whatever is in its path and no one is perfectly accurate to hit exclusively the closest enemy warrior. To that end, seeing as both styles of model removal/wound allocation are fluffy enough, the simplest solution is clearly the better. Let the owning player remove whatever models they want.

I kind of feel like these "horde" armies should get a rule like this:

Wall of Bodies:
When a unit numbering more than 15 models suffers casualties, they are counted as having a 6+ Invulnerable Save. Add an additional point to the Invulnerable Save for every 5 models in the unit beyond the 15 models where the Invulnerable Save starts.

NOTE: This effect can only ever receive a bonus of +3 to the Invulnerable Save. So a unit of 35 models would have a 3+ Invulnerable Save, not a 2+ Invulnerable Save.

So that unit of 30 Gaunts would have a 3++ Invulnerable save or their Armor or their Cover saves, with the Invulnerable save steadily getting worse as the unit loses models.

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'm guessing you missed the part where they have drop pod beasts?Tyrannocytes? On top of that, they have badass firepower and eat things after delivering their cargo.

The smaller Tyranids are meant to be expendable. The larger beasts do the legwork.

If your Orks are getting trashed, then perhaps try more vehicles? Or some artillery pieces maybe?

So instead of fielding more boyz I should invest those saved points into vehicles? Ok, Well my choices are an AV 14/12/10 BW which costs 110pts without any weapons on it, Fully upgraded it costs 175ish pts, is open topped (unless I want to make it 190pts) and is still only BS2, OHh and joy of joys, the best weapon it can take is a 30pt Kill Kannon, which is S7 AP3 pretty nice right? but its only 24in range.

On the other hand I could field a bunch of trukkz. AV 10/10/10 That come standard with a rokkit or Big shoota for 35pts, throw on a ram for 5pts and you got a decent transport for those orks that suck and get mowed down rapidly, ohh wait thats right, since its open topped and AV10 it explodes when sneezed on.

Well I have a ton of walkers to choose from, I can field a unit of 6 Killa Kanz for 300pts AV 11/11/10, WS2 BS3 and the best weapon they can take is a Grotzooka, S6 small blast.
Or how about a Deff Dread? Giant 4 klawed Close combat beat stick! but its still a walker with AV12/11/10 and has to walk to its target since its a "Walker"
We also have the Gork/Morkanaut: 230pt 5HP beasts! AV/13/13/12 awesome right? They completely lack dakka of any kind, the Morkanaut is slightly better because it can carry a KFF and has a KMK that is probably the best ranged weapon in the Ork Codex.
Lastly we have the Stompa, LoW SHW Its pretty cheap to running in at 700+pts. And they die so fast its scary. Nothing like melta squads or anything in the eldar codex shooting this thing to crap in a single turn.

So should we take those vehicles? sounds good right?

As far as artillery goes, the Mek Gunz (Ork Artillery) is probably the best unit in our codex point for point. Fully upgraded they cost like 43+ pts each and are usually taken as KMK's so Range 36, S8 AP2 small blast (gets hot) not bad. Unfortunately artillery doesn't really help because artillery is a supporting arm and currently we don't have anything to support because the infantry all died 2 turns ago to Scatter lasers and bolter fire.

SemperMortis wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'm guessing you missed the part where they have drop pod beasts?Tyrannocytes? On top of that, they have badass firepower and eat things after delivering their cargo.

The smaller Tyranids are meant to be expendable. The larger beasts do the legwork.

If your Orks are getting trashed, then perhaps try more vehicles? Or some artillery pieces maybe?

So instead of fielding more boyz I should invest those saved points into vehicles? Ok, Well my choices are an AV 14/12/10 BW which costs 110pts without any weapons on it, Fully upgraded it costs 175ish pts, is open topped (unless I want to make it 190pts) and is still only BS2, OHh and joy of joys, the best weapon it can take is a 30pt Kill Kannon, which is S7 AP3 pretty nice right? but its only 24in range.

On the other hand I could field a bunch of trukkz. AV 10/10/10 That come standard with a rokkit or Big shoota for 35pts, throw on a ram for 5pts and you got a decent transport for those orks that suck and get mowed down rapidly, ohh wait thats right, since its open topped and AV10 it explodes when sneezed on.

Well I have a ton of walkers to choose from, I can field a unit of 6 Killa Kanz for 300pts AV 11/11/10, WS2 BS3 and the best weapon they can take is a Grotzooka, S6 small blast.
Or how about a Deff Dread? Giant 4 klawed Close combat beat stick! but its still a walker with AV12/11/10 and has to walk to its target since its a "Walker"
We also have the Gork/Morkanaut: 230pt 5HP beasts! AV/13/13/12 awesome right? They completely lack dakka of any kind, the Morkanaut is slightly better because it can carry a KFF and has a KMK that is probably the best ranged weapon in the Ork Codex.
Lastly we have the Stompa, LoW SHW Its pretty cheap to running in at 700+pts. And they die so fast its scary. Nothing like melta squads or anything in the eldar codex shooting this thing to crap in a single turn.

So should we take those vehicles? sounds good right?

As far as artillery goes, the Mek Gunz (Ork Artillery) is probably the best unit in our codex point for point. Fully upgraded they cost like 43+ pts each and are usually taken as KMK's so Range 36, S8 AP2 small blast (gets hot) not bad. Unfortunately artillery doesn't really help because artillery is a supporting arm and currently we don't have anything to support because the infantry all died 2 turns ago to Scatter lasers and bolter fire.

Much better vehicles than BA. Stop bitching.

have you considered changing your play style and switching to trukks + 'eavy armour if you're that worried about loosing boys?

Martel732 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 angelofvengeance wrote:
I'm guessing you missed the part where they have drop pod beasts?Tyrannocytes? On top of that, they have badass firepower and eat things after delivering their cargo.

The smaller Tyranids are meant to be expendable. The larger beasts do the legwork.

If your Orks are getting trashed, then perhaps try more vehicles? Or some artillery pieces maybe?

So instead of fielding more boyz I should invest those saved points into vehicles? Ok, Well my choices are an AV 14/12/10 BW which costs 110pts without any weapons on it, Fully upgraded it costs 175ish pts, is open topped (unless I want to make it 190pts) and is still only BS2, OHh and joy of joys, the best weapon it can take is a 30pt Kill Kannon, which is S7 AP3 pretty nice right? but its only 24in range.

On the other hand I could field a bunch of trukkz. AV 10/10/10 That come standard with a rokkit or Big shoota for 35pts, throw on a ram for 5pts and you got a decent transport for those orks that suck and get mowed down rapidly, ohh wait thats right, since its open topped and AV10 it explodes when sneezed on.

Well I have a ton of walkers to choose from, I can field a unit of 6 Killa Kanz for 300pts AV 11/11/10, WS2 BS3 and the best weapon they can take is a Grotzooka, S6 small blast.
Or how about a Deff Dread? Giant 4 klawed Close combat beat stick! but its still a walker with AV12/11/10 and has to walk to its target since its a "Walker"
We also have the Gork/Morkanaut: 230pt 5HP beasts! AV/13/13/12 awesome right? They completely lack dakka of any kind, the Morkanaut is slightly better because it can carry a KFF and has a KMK that is probably the best ranged weapon in the Ork Codex.
Lastly we have the Stompa, LoW SHW Its pretty cheap to running in at 700+pts. And they die so fast its scary. Nothing like melta squads or anything in the eldar codex shooting this thing to crap in a single turn.

So should we take those vehicles? sounds good right?

As far as artillery goes, the Mek Gunz (Ork Artillery) is probably the best unit in our codex point for point. Fully upgraded they cost like 43+ pts each and are usually taken as KMK's so Range 36, S8 AP2 small blast (gets hot) not bad. Unfortunately artillery doesn't really help because artillery is a supporting arm and currently we don't have anything to support because the infantry all died 2 turns ago to Scatter lasers and bolter fire.

Much better vehicles than BA. Stop bitching.

Holy craps batman. You seriously have to compare everything to codex: taxi service? Just stop. No one legit cares. For real. Your codex is still better than a few: see codex temestus, codex harlequins, and codex guard... Dang dude

Also, why ask for help if you're just going to whine and complain at anyone who tells you anything other than "you're right, orks are bad and you are amazing for seeing this."

Much better vehicles than BA. Stop bitching.

no, I would say they are not better. BA is getting fethed up the poop shoot in rules and what have you, but realistically they have good vehicles. LRs are Way Over priced for what little they do on the battefield, I just ignore them. Rhinos are good at what the do, but since they don't do anything...

You can take razorbacks which is actually decent, and lets not forget the whole Predator line of vehicles, probably the ugliest vehicles in the game but decently efficient at certain tasks (IE Baal Class destroying hordes in a turn)

Landspeeders are actually pretty good at what they do, not super competitive but still good.

And then theirs the plethora of flyers, don't know how the BA Codex is now but if they have access to the SM flyers those are good fun to play against.

But like I said, BA do get screwed rules wise, and I really never fear BA assault squads unless there is a big IC in that unit.

SemperMortis wrote:

Much better vehicles than BA. Stop bitching.

no, I would say they are not better. BA is getting fethed up the poop shoot in rules and what have you, but realistically they have good vehicles. LRs are Way Over priced for what little they do on the battefield, I just ignore them. Rhinos are good at what the do, but since they don't do anything...

You can take razorbacks which is actually decent, and lets not forget the whole Predator line of vehicles, probably the ugliest vehicles in the game but decently efficient at certain tasks (IE Baal Class destroying hordes in a turn)

Landspeeders are actually pretty good at what they do, not super competitive but still good.

And then theirs the plethora of flyers, don't know how the BA Codex is now but if they have access to the SM flyers those are good fun to play against.

But like I said, BA do get screwed rules wise, and I really never fear BA assault squads unless there is a big IC in that unit.

I would take Ork vehicles over BA vehicles any day of the week. Razors and predators are actually awful in 7th ed. BA flyers are overcosted garbage as well. Basically everything in the BA heavy slot is worse than useless because it costs points and does nothing in a game.

 Brennonjw wrote:
Also, why ask for help if you're just going to whine and complain at anyone who tells you anything other than "you're right, orks are bad and you are amazing for seeing this."

Because the topic of the thread is about the 5+ and 6+ armor saves in this game, not just orks, I do focus on orks because I know them best though.

If your going to tell me "They don't need the armor they are a horde they need to die" or "Take OT Transports that explode and kill 1/2 the passengers" I am not going to consider that valid arguments or insightful comments.

I believe you also said Take them as Eavy armor boyz in a trukk. That more then doubles their cost (4pt per model for eavy armor and 35pts for a truck = 83pts more for 12 ork boyz who usually cost 72pts)

And what do those suggestions do? They get a squad of boyz across the field if they are lucky and don't have their transport eviscerated. But when they get to their target they are still dying in droves because as we all know 4+ armor isn't even that much better, but at least you get to use it a bit more often since AP4 isn't as common as AP5 and AP6 weapons.

So what I am after is a way to actually utilize those 5 and 6's on saves instead of having almost every weapon in the game negating them.

I think the best suggestions so far have been to change orks armor save to a 6+ FNP that can be improved by the inclusion of a Painboy or Cybork. It would both be a good buff for the ork army and it would be extremely fluffy.

As far as IG and Tyranids are concerned, I think for the nids the FNP works as well and for guard Im not as sure, maybe have them able to upgrade a guardsmen to a corpsmen or medic for a few points. At least then they would utilize their crappy saves instead of just dying to everything.

Give them the 6+ FNP. And maybe a point reduction. And a formation with free trucks/battlewagons.

well, nids have their mass cover save strategy, but this argument boils down to fluff vs. crunch (as so many do): by the fluff 'gaunts, IG regulars, and Ork boys die in droves, and still have the numbers to win the day. FNP makes sense for the orks, the cover + regular save makes sense for 'Nids, and IG dieing like no tomorrow while backed by tanks and vets also fits the fluff. making them to durrable for how many points they actually cost doesn't fix anything, it just continues the power creep.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, nids have their mass cover save strategy, but this argument boils down to fluff vs. crunch (as so many do): by the fluff 'gaunts, IG regulars, and Ork boys die in droves, and still have the numbers to win the day. FNP makes sense for the orks, the cover + regular save makes sense for 'Nids, and IG dieing like no tomorrow while backed by tanks and vets also fits the fluff. making them to durrable for how many points they actually cost doesn't fix anything, it just continues the power creep.

Maybe you haven't heard about "Angels of Death", but the power creep is on.

Martel732 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, nids have their mass cover save strategy, but this argument boils down to fluff vs. crunch (as so many do): by the fluff 'gaunts, IG regulars, and Ork boys die in droves, and still have the numbers to win the day. FNP makes sense for the orks, the cover + regular save makes sense for 'Nids, and IG dieing like no tomorrow while backed by tanks and vets also fits the fluff. making them to durrable for how many points they actually cost doesn't fix anything, it just continues the power creep.

Maybe you haven't heard about "Angels of Death", but the power creep is on.

gee, where have you been the last 3 or 4 codex releases

I know it's there, but just like silly MC rules, the solution to a problem is NOT giving more things the problem. Also, beyond a few easily abuse-able powers, how bad was the book overall, power wise?

 Brennonjw wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, nids have their mass cover save strategy, but this argument boils down to fluff vs. crunch (as so many do): by the fluff 'gaunts, IG regulars, and Ork boys die in droves, and still have the numbers to win the day. FNP makes sense for the orks, the cover + regular save makes sense for 'Nids, and IG dieing like no tomorrow while backed by tanks and vets also fits the fluff. making them to durrable for how many points they actually cost doesn't fix anything, it just continues the power creep.

Maybe you haven't heard about "Angels of Death", but the power creep is on.

gee, where have you been the last 3 or 4 codex releases

I know it's there, but just like silly MC rules, the solution to a problem is NOT giving more things the problem. Also, beyond a few easily abuse-able powers, how bad was the book overall, power wise?

SM were already arguably the best list, and certainly a top list. How bad did it need to be?

You have a really pessimistic outlook, don't you? From my understanding, it gave fluffy options for other chapters (basically meaning less cookie-cutter lists as a whole). Or did it not buff the BA enough to appease you?

 Brennonjw wrote:
You have a really pessimistic outlook, don't you? From my understanding, it gave fluffy options for other chapters (basically meaning less cookie-cutter lists as a whole). Or did it not buff the BA enough to appease you?

No Chapter that has their own book(read: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights) received anything from "Angels of Death" beyond the new Psyker abilities.

They can't take the formations from the book, they can't take the wargear, etc unless they play a 'counts as' force.

 Brennonjw wrote:
well, nids have their mass cover save strategy, but this argument boils down to fluff vs. crunch (as so many do): by the fluff 'gaunts, IG regulars, and Ork boys die in droves, and still have the numbers to win the day. FNP makes sense for the orks, the cover + regular save makes sense for 'Nids, and IG dieing like no tomorrow while backed by tanks and vets also fits the fluff. making them to durrable for how many points they actually cost doesn't fix anything, it just continues the power creep.

Yes but speaking from experience, hoping for GW to reverse the power creep never works. 7th edition was supposed to reverse the power creep because people were supposedly getting tired of it. So they released Orks and a handful of other codices that didn't sell them models because nobody buys units that aren't that good. (well not many people) So Boom here comes Necrons/Eldar/SM and Tau, look people are buying a lot of models now because instead of nerfing they are buffing.

So hoping for GW to reverse the power creep for the "Have" codex's isn't going to happen, and unfortunately hoping the "Have not" codex's get buffed is also kind of hopeless. Ask Chaos, Tyranids or Orks about how that wishful thinking is going.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
You have a really pessimistic outlook, don't you? From my understanding, it gave fluffy options for other chapters (basically meaning less cookie-cutter lists as a whole). Or did it not buff the BA enough to appease you?

No Chapter that has their own book(read: Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights) received anything from "Angels of Death" beyond the new Psyker abilities.

They can't take the formations from the book, they can't take the wargear, etc unless they play a 'counts as' force.

From what I've read, the psyker abilities were one of the stronger things in the book (beyond Iron Hand shenanigans), so there's that. Truth be told, I was just poking Martel's "BA sucks" button

I am fine with my Kriegsmen not having saves when they're out of cover.

 Bobthehero wrote:
I am fine with my Kriegsmen not having saves when they're out of cover.

Why then even give the model an armor save to begin with if 95% of the weapons in the game negate that save. It helps a tiny bit against AP6 spam from the Eldar and a couple other armies but thats about it.

Hell it is even getting to the point where 4+ saves aren't worth taking anymore. I remember playing against a sicarius and it just decimated my biker squads because it is AP4 and ignores cover and has 48in range I believe.

I take my armor save more often than not with my Scions.

The save is given because the model has armor, so it would make sense to have them have some sort of armor save, even if its not often used.

There is noting wrong with the saves of ork .
You can run them semi nude (6+ sv) or buy some nice armours for them (4+ sv). 4+ is a decent save and 6+ is the minimalistic save that saves you a few orks in close combat.
The problem is their point cost. They are just way to expensive for what they do, in this environment of hyper effective shooting armies and deadly close combat specialists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Games against orks would take a good bit longer if they all got saves. Orks aren't exactly paying much of a premium for their t-shirt anyway. 6 points for a t4 model with almost as many cc attacks as most marine fighty HQ choices is pretty good. ... ...I personally find Ork boys to be (slightly) better troops than tac marines point for point,.

This might be one of the funniest thing in a while on this forum an eldar player taking the time to explain to ork players that ork boyz are actually good for its point costs :_P

 oldzoggy wrote:
There is noting wrong with the saves of ork .
You can run them semi nude (6+ sv) or buy some nice armours for them (4+ sv). 4+ is a decent save and 6+ is the minimalistic save that saves you a few orks in close combat.
The problem is their point cost. They are just way to expensive for what they do, in this environment of hyper effective shooting armies and deadly close combat specialists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Games against orks would take a good bit longer if they all got saves. Orks aren't exactly paying much of a premium for their t-shirt anyway. 6 points for a t4 model with almost as many cc attacks as most marine fighty HQ choices is pretty good. ... ...I personally find Ork boys to be (slightly) better troops than tac marines point for point,.

This might be one of the funniest thing in a while on this forum an eldar player taking the time to explain to ork players that ork boyz are actually good for its point costs :_P

Thats basically what I am getting at Zoggy, we are paying for a 6+ save that we never get to use because almost every weapon defeats it. So either find a way to make the save possible or cut the cost of boyz ppm to reflect the current meta where 6+ saves are a paper save and not an actual save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ohh and as far as Niv-Mizzet's comment, yeah I laughed a bit myself when an Eldar player tried to explain to me how cost effective the ork army is.