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Major Balance Changes:
Wraithknight 360pts base

Flicker jump limited to once per phase per unit

Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts

D-scythe: Change to: Template Strength:6 AP:2, 6's to wound cause a glancing hit to vehicles and a wound regardless of targets toughness

Aerobatic Grace: As well as 4+ cover if model has moved, if the unit jinks it can re-roll its jink save

Changes to make taking a non-CAD army easier
Guardian Battlehost
Merge Guardian Battlehost and Guardian Stormhost so you can take Guardian Defenders or Storm Guardians in any combination and all weapon options for these are free
1 Farseer
0-1 Warlock Conclave
3-5 Guardian Squads instead of strictly 3
1-3 of Vaul's Wrath Battery, War Walkers, Vypers

Windrider Host
1 Farseer Skyrunner
0-1 Skyrunner Warlock Conclace
3-5 Windriders
1-3 Vypers

Wraithhost
Change Spiritseers to 1-3

Aspect Host
Each unit may individually choose whether to have +1 BS or +1 WS
(I find it annoying when creating a list that I have to take 3 squads of Scorpions to get the buff to WS)



I have made, as simply as possible, a fix to tone down the most abusive units in the Codex and make Shining Spears a bit better. I also changed around a few things regarding formations to make them less rigid. I Will probably be trying these changes out and see how they go, opponent willing.

I feel any problems with any units can be changed with point value adjustments. I see the argument that point changes won't fix things which I think is a load of rubbish, if you took any unit that was top tier like Windriders and made them 100pts per model it would not make them less powerful? Of course it would, they would be unplayable and no one would take them in their lists. This proves somewhere between their current points value and the ridiculous 100pts per model there is a balance point, though I am not saying my changes are it.

(For Warp Spiders its just not fun rolling multiple Flicker Jumps and Shining Spears just because it is simpler than working out a better points cost and seems more in line with the Crimson Death Formation special rule which does exactly the same thing as my change)

Thoughts?

The Aspect Host hands out buffs too easily; even with the ITC nerfs to once-per-phase jumps spiders still dominated the LVO. Nerf it slightly (re-roll ones to hit in either combat or shooting? the base units are already fine, and they also get re-rolls for moral and such from the formation.) and probably increase the points of Fire Dragons, and Hawks minorly and warp spiders less minorly. Finally, change the Wraith Guard weapons to be anti-MC instead of anti-everything-but-horde and the codex will be closer to playing like it supposed to, in that every unit has a specialty that they excel at but lack the ability to do anything else.

How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

Wraithknights are 295 with no upgrades. Yeah, they're THAT undercosted.

Swampmist wrote:The Aspect Host hands out buffs too easily; even with the ITC nerfs to once-per-phase jumps spiders still dominated the LVO. Nerf it slightly (re-roll ones to hit in either combat or shooting? the base units are already fine, and they also get re-rolls for moral and such from the formation.) and probably increase the points of Fire Dragons, and Hawks minorly and warp spiders less minorly. Finally, change the Wraith Guard weapons to be anti-MC instead of anti-everything-but-horde and the codex will be closer to playing like it supposed to, in that every unit has a specialty that they excel at but lack the ability to do anything else.

Yeah the Aspect Host change is a bit of a buff but I think it is reasonably fluffy for aspect warriors to be very good at fighting, I prefer +1BS/WS because its less dice rolling and so quicker and more simpler and some units need the boost

In my limited experience of playing Warp Spiders they would be more manageable for my opponent if they can only jump once, but I only run one unit of 5

These aren't changes to make it tournament worthy, tournies should have their own rules to keep things balanced

Other changes to Aspect Warrior points I would consider if I did a 2nd pass on the changes after a lot of play testing to see where things stand

I agree D-scythes should not be Strength D, I will come up with something to add to the original post at some point

Kap'n Krump wrote:How much are wraithknights currently? I thought they were already around 350.

I also think that the D flamers are just stupid powerful. A group of 6 could take out a stompa on overwatch without too much trouble, which is just a little on the silly side.

Not to mention shenanigans with allying with dark eldar and deep striking them in an open topped raider.

No they are 295pts but Scatter Lasers and Star Cannons are 15pts and 20pts each

Yeah D-scythes need changing, forgot about them as I don't use them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, thought of a change to D-scythes to tone them down but still make them worth their points. Will need testing though

But if your going for a balancing pass, there's no reason to buff the already great Aspect Host, though it's not much of a buff as everyone just chooses BS anyway. Maybe limit it to one Exarch across all three, to lower the spiderspam viability? Or, actually, better idea: The +1 BS and +1 WS happen together, but only when two or more units from the formation are within X range of eachother, kind of like the 1st Company Task Force.

On the Wraithguard, I suggest making the guns still viable at killing MCs (as that is basically their job) but nerf it as much as you can against multi-wound infantry, and make them simply unviable against vehicles so that they end up being an actual specialist unit like the rest of the codex. then, leaving them at the same current cost, give them a second wound maybe? Then make them Very Bulky instead of bulky, and dissallow them from going in a WS. This way, the unit becomes a tanky, but slow MC killer, which would in no way be op imho.

What if Death Spinners were S5?
Hawks could move 12"?
Fire Dragons lost Assured Destruction?

A few things, if you're increasing windriders to 60 base, then the weapon option upgrade cost should stay the same not go up. Makes no since. You're no double taxing a unit. Not even space marines get that treatment with grav guns.

I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

 Swampmist wrote:
I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

We are going to limit grenades now? I want all marines to have one special gun per squad. Oh stern guard? Then no special weapon per squad cause your a vet, rock that bolt gun. No special ammo either. Who needs it

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
I don't think hawks moving 18" is the problem; their speed is literally all they are good at other than haywire bombing gak. Maybe only let the exarch use the haywire nades? Because seriously, they are a fast, easy-to-kill unit in an army based on speed and being not very tanky, I hobestly don't think thry are an issue. Dragons also make sense with assured, but I think could use a drop to a 4+ save, and maybe a loss to their initiative because they are carrying arund the big guns.

We are going to limit grenades now? I want all marines to have one special gun per squad. Oh stern guard? Then no special weapon per squad cause your a vet, rock that bolt gun. No special ammo either. Who needs it

You DO realize that they can only throw one either way, right? That aspect would not change. Also, Swooping Hawks have the Bomb Drop, can move 18" a turn, can DS without Scatter, and can jump off the board if they get in trouble. They don't also need to be one of the best ways to glance a tank down, especially when Dragons Exist. Though, another option is to make it so that they cannot jump 18" and then charge, which would, again, be a small enough nerf as to keep them played but still get them closer to the mid-tier, which is where every unit should be.

Also, Sternguard have to pay for special weapons; Hawks get the haywire grenades as a part of their base profile. And tacticals do only get - special per squad, and heavies are generally terrible. Not comparable., and very irrelevant to the thread.

Haywire on the non-Exarch matter with the charge. Currently, if they charge a vehicle, they destroy it.

With 12" movement, if you let them charge your LR, they are going to do the damage.

With 18" movement, they are going to get to charge your LR.

Hawks are all about the Grenades. They have a utility belt Adam West would love. That and mobility is what they do. Their gun is more a sidearm.

I have never been a fan of points increases. I would rather have units that are easier to kill than jacking up the cost. As an Eldar player, I was actually pissed that the WK became a GC because it came with a price increase that made fielding 2 of them (my main anti-tank at the time) less appealing, not to mention making me TFG.
So instead of raising the price of the WK, how about lowering his Wounds to 5 instead of 6 (which is 16% reduction in durability) and making the D-Cannons only 24". That way the WK has to get closer while risking more damage. Let's also reduce the Initiative to 4 like the other Wraith-constructs.

As for Windriders, keep them at the current cost, but make their armour save 4+ and make Scatter Lasers 1 per 3 (although I think it's perfectly fine and fluffy to have all Shuriken cannons).

I also like the "re-roll 1s" to hit for the Aspect Host. It may be a bit more rolling, but it is simple to keep track of and doesn't make current units god-like. If anything, just drop that bonus from the Aspect Host entirely and just have it's bonus be the ability to take 3 units of Aspect warriors (that also re-roll moral & pinning)

--

A few related ideas:

I like the idea of S5 deathspinners, and I think S5 scatter lasers might be a good option too.

As for Wraithguard, I didn't mind the old S10 AP2 Distort profile for the wraithcannon - yeah, it was good against both MCs and vehicles, but there was a real tradeoff. Fire Dragons were better against vehicles - they had AP1, Melta and had melta bombs to back that up, while Wraithguard were better against MCs with their ID-on-6 weapons. Also, Wraithguard were tougher, but more expensive, while Fire Dragons were faster and cheaper, and could fit in a Falcon. Neither really had the volume to be the correct counter to heavy infantry, though they can do it in a pinch.

The D-scythe is stickier. The old version was basically anti-heavy-infantry only, though it could fish for sixes against MCs or vehicles in a pinch. I'm not actually sure what its intended role is supposed to be: Eldar don't really need help killing MEQs, since shuriken weapons can do that just fine, and WG with wraithcannons, Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers can pick up whatever slack remains. As an anti-MC weapon, any kind of flamer seems like a weird choice. The current D-scythe is horribly broken: sure, it can't just unceremoniously baleet models the way the full-power-D wraithcannon can, but it can deal a thoroughly unreasonable number of wounds.

Maybe something like this: R18 S1 AP2, Salvo 1/2, Fleshbane (4+), Instant Death

The intent is to make an anti-MC/anti-GC weapon that's not amazing against typical heavy infantry and is useless against vehicles. Anti-GC is why it's Fleshbane (4+) not Poisoned (4+). It almost surely needs some tuning, because as a first stab, that's probably either OP or UP, but...

jade_angel wrote:
A few related ideas:

I like the idea of S5 deathspinners, and I think S5 scatter lasers might be a good option too.

As for Wraithguard, I didn't mind the old S10 AP2 Distort profile for the wraithcannon - yeah, it was good against both MCs and vehicles, but there was a real tradeoff. Fire Dragons were better against vehicles - they had AP1, Melta and had melta bombs to back that up, while Wraithguard were better against MCs with their ID-on-6 weapons. Also, Wraithguard were tougher, but more expensive, while Fire Dragons were faster and cheaper, and could fit in a Falcon. Neither really had the volume to be the correct counter to heavy infantry, though they can do it in a pinch.

The D-scythe is stickier. The old version was basically anti-heavy-infantry only, though it could fish for sixes against MCs or vehicles in a pinch. I'm not actually sure what its intended role is supposed to be: Eldar don't really need help killing MEQs, since shuriken weapons can do that just fine, and WG with wraithcannons, Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers can pick up whatever slack remains. As an anti-MC weapon, any kind of flamer seems like a weird choice. The current D-scythe is horribly broken: sure, it can't just unceremoniously baleet models the way the full-power-D wraithcannon can, but it can deal a thoroughly unreasonable number of wounds.

Maybe something like this: R18 S1 AP2, Salvo 1/2, Fleshbane (4+), Instant Death

The intent is to make an anti-MC/anti-GC weapon that's not amazing against typical heavy infantry and is useless against vehicles. Anti-GC is why it's Fleshbane (4+) not Poisoned (4+). It almost surely needs some tuning, because as a first stab, that's probably either OP or UP, but...

The whole idea behind the scatter laser is high strength low penetration. I'm perfectly fine with the strength going down if the pen goes up to ap3. So mediocre strength decent penetration. You can't just nerf something to crap, you have to balance it. Scatter lasers should always have no problem killing marines. Whether in volume of wounds or armor penetration

S5 AP6 Heavy 4 (on Relentless platforms) is nerfed to crap? I might be inclined to disagree with that. (And AP3 would be a bit OP there. S6 AP6 Heavy 4 at BS4 versus T4/3+ is .74 average unsaved wounds, versus 1.77 average for S5 AP3 Heavy 4 at BS3 versus T4/3+. That would make it a better Marine-killer than the starcannon, and basically a four-shot version of the Reaper Launcher with -12" range.) I'm not talking about knocking it down to one shot, or 12" range, or S3, or anything crappy like that.

That said, it's not especially OP except when you can spam it on highly mobile platforms. On bikes, it's the combination of price, mobility, range and numbers that makes it scary. Scatter lasers on Guardian squads, Wave Serpents, Falcons and Vypers have never been especially terrifying. War Walkers can get mean with their numbers, but they're expensive (relatively), squishy and take up valuable Heavy Support slots, so even scatterspam War Walkers are strong but balanced.

So, either leave it with its current profile but restrict it to one in three for bikers, or leave its current availability, but nerf it to S5. If you need your bikes to kill marines, shuriken cannons are a better option anyway.

jade_angel wrote:
S5 AP6 Heavy 4 (on Relentless platforms) is nerfed to crap? I might be inclined to disagree with that. (And AP3 would be a bit OP there. S6 AP6 Heavy 4 at BS4 versus T4/3+ is .74 average unsaved wounds, versus 1.77 average for S5 AP3 Heavy 4 at BS3 versus T4/3+. That would make it a better Marine-killer than the starcannon, and basically a four-shot version of the Reaper Launcher with -12" range.) I'm not talking about knocking it down to one shot, or 12" range, or S3, or anything crappy like that.

That said, it's not especially OP except when you can spam it on highly mobile platforms. On bikes, it's the combination of price, mobility, range and numbers that makes it scary. Scatter lasers on Guardian squads, Wave Serpents, Falcons and Vypers have never been especially terrifying. War Walkers can get mean with their numbers, but they're expensive (relatively), squishy and take up valuable Heavy Support slots, so even scatterspam War Walkers are strong but balanced.

So, either leave it with its current profile but restrict it to one in three for bikers, or leave its current availability, but nerf it to S5. If you need your bikes to kill marines, shuriken cannons are a better option anyway.

Well good thing it's neither of those options then huh buddy? GW loves the space elves to much to hurt them like that. Until then, you'll just have to learn to play against multiple squads of 3 bikers with 3 scatter lasers.

Also, maybe not have almost every single gun in their entire army be rending? I guess a rending that doesn't have an effect on vehicles, but still.

Swooping Hawks are fine as is, the 18" is fun and their weaponry is fairly limited in terms of power, it lets them focus down vehicles but get destroyed by the basic space marine fairly easily.

Increase the potency of the Howling Banshee, either assaulting out of transports/ furious charge or rage/ rampage... something that makes them good at CC would be great.

Windrider Guardian wise, increase the base cost of the Shuriken Cannon to 15 and the scatterlasers to 20

Warp Spiders should only be allowed to flickerjump once per game turn

Wraithknights should be 300 base but being forced to purchase its weaponry (25 points for sun cannon and scattershield, 60 for D cannons, 55 for Ghostglaive and scattershield)

Remove the +1 BS/WS benefit for the aspect host and have specific benefits added depending on the Aspects included to represent them fighting as a unified force rather than a way to spam one particular aspect. For instance:

Adding a Howling Banshee squad gives all units in that aspect host rending in close combat

Adding Shining Spears gives all units in that aspect host Rerolls to hit and wound for the first round of combat

Adding Dark Reapers give all units in that aspect host +1 BS

Adding Warp Spiders give all units in that aspect host Hit and Run

Adding Swooping Hawks give all units in that aspect host +3 to their run and charge rolls

Adding Striking Scorpions give all units in that aspect host +1 strength in close combat

Fire Dragons give all units in that aspect Monster hunter/Tank hunter

Dire Avengers give all units counter attack or BS2 on overwatch

These are all some meaty buffs but it also makes players want to diversify their aspect hosts rather than an option to just spam on particular aspect... like Warp Spiders

Wave Serpents are reduced to 100 points

Increase the Avatar of Khaine to 280 points and give him a 4+ invulnerable save and 12" movement, always hitting on 3's in close combat

Wraithguard Distortion Scythes becomes S7 ap2 Template

Hemlock Heavy D scythe becomes S8 ap2 1d3+1 blast

Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

 Swampmist wrote:
Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

You play warhammer, friend. What you want has no weight anywhere

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Also, maybe not have almost every single gun in their entire army be rending? I guess a rending that doesn't have an effect on vehicles, but still.

Yeah, make Bladestorm AP3 on the 6 to wound so that it is more like "rending lite" instead of "rending - effect on AV". Or make Bladestom have Shred and always wound on 6s (cuz if it was just Shred you wouldn't need to call it Bladestorm).

Windriders are basic troops, but unfortunately the "1 per 3 special weapon" ship has sailed since the kit comes with 3 of each weapon. Again, though I am not a fan of price increase, especially on the basic troops that I started this army for. I shouldn't be punished for using the unit that attracted me to this army back in 4th ed when they weren't this good. Either make them have a 4+ armour, or make Scatter lasers 15pts (shuricannons should stay at 10pts, or even 5pts if you make the above change to Bladestorm)

Wraithguard should be 35ppm + 10pts per D-scythe and you should be able to mix them. It makes no sense to have to upgrade the entire unit. With this change, I think D-scythes (and the Heavy ones on the Hemlock) should only be AP3 or even AP4. Nothing in the BRB says that D-weapons have to be AP1-2 and it would be interesting to see how D-weapons work when you get a decent save. Fluffwise it makes perfect sense for all Distortion weapons to be D-weapons, but that doesn't mean they all have to be AP2.

Here is how I would break it down:
Heavy Wraithcannon (the WK one): 24" range, StrD, AP2, Heavy 1
Wraithcannon: no change to current, just a 3pt increase on WG and the ability to mix in D-scythes
D-cannon: no change to current
D-scythe: Template, StrD-1, AP4
Heavy D-scythe: Torrent Template, StrD-1, AP3 (or AP4 with a points decrease on the Hemlock to make it appealing)

-

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Swampmist wrote:
Your in the Proposed Rules forum, friend. What GW thinks/wants has no weight here.

You play warhammer, friend. What you want has no weight anywhere

Except in the exact forum we're in .

Back on topic, I like the Idea of each aspect adding something different, and it means that almost any set-up other than spamming one unit is encouraged.

Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

 Torus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

Limiting flicker jump to once per phase is in OP

Hawks are crazy good at anti light infantry, and have limited anti tank they shouldn't be sooo good at anti tank where they can basically guarantee a LR destruction of they charge it, also they can haywire flyers as well. They really really don't need to be able to each have a haywire attack in close combat

If against any guard infantry squad a unit of 6 dropping a large ignore cover blast can get most of their points back with this attack alone

I apologize; I should have reread the original post before I responded again.
I would like to point out that quite literally everything that fires more than one shot in the Eldar codex is better at horde clearing than Swooping Hawks. Secondly, even with 18” using these guys vs air targets is usually not viable since every flyer can avoid them with superior movement whilst the ignores cover bomb is great against pathfinders and the like, but its only S4 – not something to sniff at but certainly not worth justifying the unit’s existence.
Lastly and crucially why shouldn’t a charge from these guys wreak a Land Raider? They are a T3 unit with 4+ armour who will most likely deep strike in, they then have to survive a turn of shooting before attempting to charge and even then they are hitting on 3’s to try and haywire the target. When the tank is destroyed they are then dead to the counter punch to whoever is inside… or the player using armour can just bubble wrap/ screen the armour to protect it… job done

 Torus wrote:

Spoiler:

 Korlandril wrote:

 Torus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
Thanks for all the replies but some are missing the point that I want to make as few changes as possible and mainly rely on points changes as I think as it is the units are fun to play in terms of functionality but not fun to play on terms of your opponent not having a good time and a balanced game

But I have reasons why I think I wouldn't change units:

Warp Spiders: They could possibly do with points increase but I like flicker jump it's a fun mechanic and their guns are strength 6 range 12 and wound against initiative so I don't think they need changing

Fire Dragons: Assured destruction makes little difference because minimum 5 melta shots is going to destroy most vehicles anyway and the squad is pretty expensive as is. But they do do better against super heavies. I will compare with a marine squad with 4 meltas when I have time to see if needing balance

Swooping Hawks: They are very glass cannon I think they are fine BUT in general I think every model getting to use grenades in close combat is wrong and should be the same as shooting where only one can use it. This would balance them so I'm going to leave it


Generally a lot of rules suggestions I see on proposed rules seem too clunky for me, that's why I want simple to implement, simple to play philosophy into these changes

You see I have to disagree vehemently, Warp Spiders as written can jump EVERYTIME they get targeted for a shooting attack, I think it is a necessity to limit that to once per phase at the very least.

Secondly, I have no idea where this notion of Swooping Hawks in need of balancing is coming from, to limit grenades in such a way that only one model gets to use them makes the unit absolutely useless. They are no longer useful against vehicles; they have a lot of ranged S3 shots which hurts hordes but that is never an issue with Eldar and nothing else to the point that Dire Avengers would be better in every respect… let them keep their niche specialization.

Right now they are good but completely outshined by Warp Spiders and scatterbikes, make it less appealing to spam aspects and limit the Windrider guardians and you’re good.

Oh and it seems we both agree with the fire dragons, considering the expense and what that many meltas do anyway they're alright as they are...

Limiting flicker jump to once per phase is in OP

Hawks are crazy good at anti light infantry, and have limited anti tank they shouldn't be sooo good at anti tank where they can basically guarantee a LR destruction of they charge it, also they can haywire flyers as well. They really really don't need to be able to each have a haywire attack in close combat

If against any guard infantry squad a unit of 6 dropping a large ignore cover blast can get most of their points back with this attack alone

I apologize; I should have reread the original post before I responded again.
I would like to point out that quite literally everything that fires more than one shot in the Eldar codex is better at horde clearing than Swooping Hawks. Secondly, even with 18” using these guys vs air targets is usually not viable since every flyer can avoid them with superior movement whilst the ignores cover bomb is great against pathfinders and the like, but its only S4 – not something to sniff at but certainly not worth justifying the unit’s existence.
Lastly and crucially why shouldn’t a charge from these guys wreak a Land Raider? They are a T3 unit with 4+ armour who will most likely deep strike in, they then have to survive a turn of shooting before attempting to charge and even then they are hitting on 3’s to try and haywire the target. When the tank is destroyed they are then dead to the counter punch to whoever is inside… or the player using armour can just bubble wrap/ screen the armour to protect it… job done

No problem

I suppose but you could be them out of LOS then with 18" jump get in and wreck it quite easily and even if they can't reach a flyer is going to create a bubble your opponents aircraft are gong to avoid and if they have more than 1 or two that's hard to do

Strength 4 against toughness 3 is still pretty good and ap4 ignore cover is great

It comes down to their role; guranteed 18" move that doesn't require using up their shooting can be pretty good for taking objectives. It really comes down to their job; they are a rapid response unit, meant to handle a multitude of targets ok and be able to get where they need quickly and without needing to pay for an exspensive transport. That's why I like the idea of making the host have different buffs for each unit; it promotes diversity and allows for design space for equalizing their power levels.

The thing with Swooping hawks and flyers is that they have to move over part of the model rather than just reach the base, which makes it even harder to do that particular attack (I've tried many times, most recently I've tried 3 units from multiple directions several turns trying to reach a fire raptor... it hasn't gone well)

Against T3, the bomb is great, it also relies on an Autarch to get your reserves in (god help you if you are using ITC making you roll every time the come in from deep strike) and has a very limited selection of targets. Blob squads squads of guard are running is a plethora of psyhic buffs these days or will be in transports or be so big/spaced out that they can ignore 7-8 wounds, and then they are dead to retaliation fire.
They suicide quite well against pathfinders and scouts... they can hurt markerdrones... and thats about it for ideal targets.

If you are in a very densely populated board with a ton of LOS blocking terrain (everyone's gaming board dream) then they can be quite powerful against armour... being in the open however or anything that can draw line of sight to the hawks will end them. Even 'throw away' weapons such as heavy stubbers and heavy bolters utterly destroy them , so I really appreciate their sting in the tail if that makes sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Swampmist wrote:
It comes down to their role; guranteed 18" move that doesn't require using up their shooting can be pretty good for taking objectives. It really comes down to their job; they are a rapid response unit, meant to handle a multitude of targets ok and be able to get where they need quickly and without needing to pay for an exspensive transport. That's why I like the idea of making the host have different buffs for each unit; it promotes diversity and allows for design space for equalizing their power levels.

Agreed,

they shouldn't be as good as Fire dragons at taking down vehicles, and they shouldn't be as good at killing infantry and Dark Reapers... I just feel their shorter range weapons and the haywire grenades really do help make their movement important an important aspect of their identity in the codex... perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe, as I stated I just dislike the constant spamming of aspects when they really should used in conjuction with each other...