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2016/04/21 12:27:16
Subject: Re:Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Torus wrote: perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe...
Sure, it fits. I can't disagree with that. But they why do other similar units not get the special rules that they do? Other 7th edition books give out special rules via formations. Eldar got all of their special rules on the units themselves, meaning feel free to CAD it up. Also, look at Scourges. They're essentially the DE version of Hawks, yet with no special rules whatsoever. And then a personal gripe of mine is, why do they get Deep Strike precision, when things like my Deathmarks don't.
Hawks have too many special rules for their points. Sure, you can easily kill them if you look at them (relatively speaking), but that's true with a lot of units that are far worse. A whole squad of Haywire Grenades (they removed that option from Wytches) that can hit flyers, faster movement than everyone, not even including that Jet Pack feature and Battle Focus, a weight of fire gun that gaks on Las weapons, No mishap ever, can go back into reserves (Which, also keep in mind you can just go into reserves turn 1 and auto come in turn 2, but things like the Mawloc specifically cannot do that. Why?).
I can see an argument that they're not OP, sure. But that's not a good argument. The fact that they gak on so many other units in other armies is not fair. Yet another iteration of GW's inconsistency and favoritism towards Eldar.
As far as every other unit, I could rant on, but I'll save it for now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 12:33:14
40k:
8th Edtion: 9405 pts - Varantekh Dynasty
2016/04/21 13:19:42
Subject: Re:Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Torus wrote: perhaps I'm wrong but I feel the current iteration of swooping hawks really fits the fast responce unit vibe...
Sure, it fits. I can't disagree with that. But they why do other similar units not get the special rules that they do? Other 7th edition books give out special rules via formations. Eldar got all of their special rules on the units themselves, meaning feel free to CAD it up. Also, look at Scourges. They're essentially the DE version of Hawks, yet with no special rules whatsoever. And then a personal gripe of mine is, why do they get Deep Strike precision, when things like my Deathmarks don't.
Hawks have too many special rules for their points. Sure, you can easily kill them if you look at them (relatively speaking), but that's true with a lot of units that are far worse. A whole squad of Haywire Grenades (they removed that option from Wytches) that can hit flyers, faster movement than everyone, not even including that Jet Pack feature and Battle Focus, a heavy weight of fire gun that gaks on Las weapons, No mishap ever, can go back into reserves (Which, also keep in mind you can just go into reserves turn 1 and auto come in turn 2, but things like the Mawloc specifically cannot do that. Why?).
I can see an argument that they're not OP, sure. But that's not a good argument. The fact that they gak on so many other units in other armies is not fair. Yet another iteration of GW's inconsistency and favoritism towards Eldar.
As far as every other unit, I could rant on, but I'll save it for now.
Good grief, I wish I were writing the rules for the other ‘dex's at the very least we'd get a more balanced internal and external experience... we both know there are issues with the various factions in this game, however I love this ‘dex! Almost everything is useful and fun to use, and I'd rather have minor tweaks to bring everything in line in the Eldar dex (Warp Spiders, Wraith knight, D scythes, scatterbike nerf / Banshee, Scorpion, Wraithblade, shining Spear, Avatar buff - Aspect host changes) and then strengthen everyone else so they can experience that for themselves on a codex level rather than formation based [Idealism over]
(Just as an aside I do believe the Hawks just go into reserves rather than ongoing when they Skyleap meaning there is a good argument to have them roll when they come in. - interpretation may vary)
First off, Wyches... they really should have kept haywire grenades, its a travesty what happened to that faction and if possible I would have given them + 3" to charge range or rage...something to buff them, and the entire dex if I'm honest and yes Deathmarks probably should only scatter d6
Whilst scourges are a bit more specialized than the hawks with ranged haywire, although it doesn't fit with the fluff I'd wish they increased their movement range.
Regardless of these examples, Swooping Hawks have a ton of special rules but the ways they can implement is them are limited. - They can do back into reserve - for a S4 ignores cover blast, which have few ideal targets especially when brought down to 5 models or less - They have rapid fire weapons that make lasguns look like a joke - in fairness, so do bolters, IG at the very least have access to order and desperately need an update themselves - They can 'assault' flyers - it's a nice utility skill but certainly not reliable, if you took it away from the hawks, players wouldn’t notice - They murder armour in cc - CC has its own issues but it's reliable and can be countered - They can deep strike without scatter but unlike your Wraithguard D scythes/ Deathmarks/ Warp Spiders/ Centurions/whatever they don't have the weaponry to fully utilize it
They certainly don’t need a buff, but they are in a good place at the moment.
Perhaps this isn’t said enough, but I’m sorry. I’m sorry that GW has created such a disparity between some codices, I’m sorry that my faction has an amazing codex when others are either god awful or rely on formations to get on the table and I’m sorry because of a few disgusting units any lists are stagnant and devoid of any innovation. Earlier when Eldar released, some people said that even if you randomly selected units you would get a competitive army (and I think gently toning down Warp Spiders, Windrider Guardians with Scatterlasers and Wraithknights truly creates that feel) … I’m a firm proponent that all factions should have the same opportunity.
Sorry, this turned into a ramble, I got carried away a bit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 13:29:18
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
"You're in the Guard(ians), son!
2016/04/21 13:50:57
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
If points were proportional to the lore the tau would be at a big disadvantage due to comparatively small numbers and imperial guard would be 1ppm due to high total human population lol
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
2016/04/21 14:58:04
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 14:58:39
2016/04/21 15:02:18
Subject: Re:Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts
Honestly I don't know the price of a unit of windriders because I don't play Eldar, but is that 60pts base for 3 windriders or is that for 1 single windrider? The reason I ask is because I believe Scat Bikes are currently 27pts a model, and under your increases they are 35pts a model (8pts more)
While that does appear at face value to be a big increase, it really isn't. Most Eldar lists I see with Scat Bikes include about 3 units of 3-4 bikers. Going of the MSU principle lets say a total of 9 Scat Bikes. Your points increase is only 72pts. That does seem a lot but then you realize that just means you don't get to take 72pts of other upgrades. Yeah it will help balance the game a bit but not enough to make it "Balanced".
Again, I am most familiar with my Ork codex so please I understand that comparison's aren't exactly good because as everyone admits the Ork Codex is probably in the bottom 3 for codexs.
Orks can take Warbikers and Nob Bikers, I won't do a comparison for nob bikers because it is just silly and will make me cry a bit inside. Instead lets go off Warbikers. For 18pts a model you can get warbikers, they are BS2 S3 T5 bikers with a 4+ save and a 4+ jink. They come standard with a 18in TL S5 Assault 3 weapon. Thats realistically not to bad, points cost wise they maybe need a bit of help but still feasible. Here is the problem, they are LD7 So you have to include a Nob to get Mob Rule results So you have to purchase a nob biker for the squad of 3 (or upgrade a boy to keep the squad at 3) For the 3 Boyz and a Nob with a powerklaw (realistically the only way you should take a nob) your paying 107pts for 4 bikes with T5 and 4+ saves. For 105pts under your system Eldar can take 3 Scat Bikes.
In a vacuum those 3 Eldar Scat Bikes are going to EAT my warbikers for breakfast. 4 S6 shots at 36in range means I will never be able to close the gap and even if I do because of real game reasons, by the time I get their I will be combat ineffective. 1 round of shooting from those bikes will deal me 12 shots 8 hits and about 6 wounds. Against 4+ armor thats 3 unsaved wounds and boom I am down to a nob on a bike, thats it. Turn 2 he dies, or if he gets the charge off by some miracle he faces again 12 shots of overwatch 2 hits and 1-2 wounds. If he is lucky he dies in CC if he isn't...well hes dead on overwatch.
So Basically if your saying that the squad starts with 1 biker at 60pts then think that is a sufficient nerf in points to make them balanced against the rest of the game, but otherwise it still isn't enough. Not because the ork warbikers didn't win, but because they didn't have a chance.
Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:05:08
Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.
You want a wraithknight to cost almost as much as supremacy armor... When are we adding the 14 other d cannons at 48" range with rerolls of one and 3+ fnp with 2+ reroll able invulnerable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:10:48
2016/04/21 15:22:56
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.
Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
"You're in the Guard(ians), son!
2016/04/21 15:24:16
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.
Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least
The IK is such a piece of junk compared to this thing. That's why I say 460. Even that might be too cheap. I almost snicker when people field IKs, because they could have had WKs instead. Basically, if your super unit still cares about melta in 7th, it's bad. IKs do, and so they are bad. WK and TWC and Black Knights don't give a feth about melta.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:25:48
2016/04/21 15:37:37
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Keeping with that format, WK needs to be a lot more than 360. Try 460. What price for immortality? Scatbikes should probably be even more expensive as well.
Sorry Martel, I know you’ve been burned by this sort of nonsense with the Wraithknight but immortal? No. between stormsurges, grav pods and a plethora of high strength shooting have humbled the Wraithknight, it still needs a points increase but not to 470. Keep the suncannon variant cheaper and D cannon the most expensive.
300 base
And maybe 40 points for the sun cannon
70 points for sword and board
100 for D cannons
Shoulder weapons are 15 e/a
That brings it in line with the Imperial Knight at least
The IK is such a piece of junk compared to this thing. That's why I say 460. Even that might be too cheap. I almost snicker when people field IKs, because they could have had WKs instead. Basically, if your super unit still cares about melta in 7th, it's bad. IKs do, and so they are bad. WK and TWC and Black Knights don't give a feth about melta.
In the same way IK's don't care about psychic shrieks or grav cannons and their weapons arguably have more utility against a wider selection of targets.
They both have stomps and both have D weapon attacks in cc WK has 2 Single shot D weapons at range, or a Sun cannon (s6 aP2 small blasts)#
whilst the IK has rapid fire battle cannons or melta cannons and a plethora of carapace options and secondary weapon systems.
In a head to head the WK would win, but the IK does better as an all-rounder
and lets not forget that the stormsurge can be considered better than the WK since it's a massive force multiplier at sub 400. just my 2 cents
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
"You're in the Guard(ians), son!
2016/04/21 15:40:54
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.
IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.
Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:41:44
2016/04/21 15:45:24
Subject: Re:Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts
<snip generally accurate, on-point analysis for brevity>
Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.
I respectfully disagree, and this is why: the Windrider with its default twin-linked shuriken catapult is unimpressive. 40 points for a scatbike actually does sound about right, but 25 for an BS4 S3 T4 guy on a bike with 3+ armor and a gun that's R12 S4 AP5 Assault 2 Bladestorm, Twin-Linked is a little bit much. Consider that Shining Spears are already 25 points with a strong CCW and dual-wielding, Skilled Rider and an automatic cover save and they're considered underpowered. (They still have the Windrider's twin-linked shuricat.) What makes the scatter laser seriously nasty is precisely that 36" range combined with the ability for the bikes to kite you an average of 18" per turn. Most other units are hard-pressed to close the gap without 48" guns, and precious few of those have good weight of fire. The shuriken cannon, while effective, is much less scary due to its shorter range (even though, statistically, it's deadlier to heavy infantry and MCs, once you do get into range), while the catapult scares essentially nobody. Yes, it is effective on MEQs and the like, but getting into 12" range without getting shot to hell and gone is actually fairly hard, and if you want to shower someone with shuricats, Guardians actually aren't too bad at it.
I'd propose instead, one of the following:
Base cost 20 points. 15 points for a shuriken cannon, 25 points for a scatter laser.
--XOR--
Base cost 20 points. One model in three may upgrade to a shuriken cannon (5 points) or a scatter laser (15 points).
The heavy weapons being cheap is fine if their number is strictly limited; being numerous is OK if they're expensive. The problem is both. And I agree that the base Windrider is too expensive, but not by a lot. (Alternatively, leave it at 17ppm, but with a 4+ save)
Doesn't an IK beat a Suncannon WK and about tie a Glave WK?
And how often does a Wraithcannon WK get two saves vs Psychic Screech? As for the other builds, the WK gets roughly the same as the IK gets vs shooting - 5++/5+++ is very close to a 4++.
The WK hunts titans better, the IK hunts non-Titans better. The WK tanks high-S high-AP better, but high-S low-AP worse, and mid-S much, much worse.
WKs need to cost more. But do they outclass IKs per-model? I'm not so sure. They are vulnerable to different things, but its really just things like Haywire and Malta that scare IKs more than WKs.
A titan-hunting WK killing another minititan better than an infantry-mulching IK does shouldn't be a surprise.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Jade,
I like your first option.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:50:18
2016/04/21 15:51:25
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.
IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.
Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.
1 ranged D attack kills 1 thing if you're lucky which is very good against your single model powerhouses like your riptides, IK's, GMC's fine...is it going to stop Windrider jetbikes?, Grav bikes?, Warp Spiders? TWC? Deathstars? ...no its got a very specific thing that it's very good at, and if you go with Double D's then you only have the FNP's for your shrieks/ gravs and shenanigans.
The Sword is great for defence and now you have some great striking power in CC, but then you yourself are weak to those very save single shot D weapons and you are prone to tarpits if you're unlucky
Suncannons are great for packed infantry but really lacks focus for everything else...
WK's are too powerful for their points cost...but I think you maybe underestimating the other big toys on the market
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:54:38
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
"You're in the Guard(ians), son!
2016/04/21 15:51:45
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.
IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.
Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.
1 ranged D attack kills 1 thing if you're lucky which is very good against your single model powerhouses like your riptides, IK's, GMC's fine...is it going to stop Windrider jetbikes?, Grav bikes?, Warp Spiders? TWC? Deathstars? ...no its got a vary specific thing that it's very good at, and if you go with Double D's then you only have the FNP's for your shrieks/ gravs and shenanigans.
The Sword is great for defence and now you have some great striking power in CC, but then you yourself are weak to those very save single shot D weapons and you are prone to tarpits if you're unlucky
Suncannons are great for packed infantry but really lacks focus for everything else...
WK's are too powerful for their points cost...but I think you maybe underestimating the other big toys on the market
You can't tarpit a WK because of stomp.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/21 15:53:09
2016/04/21 15:52:50
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.
IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.
Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.
Eh, the Stormsurge only has a slightly better save, and then only if it spends 50 points to get it. (4++ Shield Generator vs 5++ Scattershield) Not trivial by any means - the Stormsurge is annoying as hell and I refuse to use one - but it doesn't have massively better saves than the WK. It's also T6/W8 instead of T8/W6 - kind of a tossup, depending on what you're throwing at it.
And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.
(Note, I most emphatically am not claiming that the WK isn't overpowered/undercosted, but it's not "just better than an IK in every way against every target". I think it really ought to start out around 350 points with the suncannon, and either option that has D should be quite a bit more.)
Martel732 wrote: I've seen plenty of IKs killed by grav cannons with amps. Psychic shriek. Okay. Something that WK still gets two saves against. Whatever.
IK weapons suck compared to D-cannons. Straight up suck. IK is NOT better all around. I laugh at them with frickin BA because they could have been Eldar. It's so easy to knock off 6 HPs And ranged D is precious and valuable.
Stormsurge has better saves, but if you kill the markerlights, the WK suplexes it trivially. WK doesn't need support, and is a nightmare in CC and shooting.
Eh, the Stormsurge only has a slightly better save, and then only if it spends 50 points to get it. (4++ Shield Generator vs 5++ Scattershield) Not trivial by any means - the Stormsurge is annoying as hell and I refuse to use one - but it doesn't have massively better saves than the WK. It's also T6/W8 instead of T8/W6 - kind of a tossup, depending on what you're throwing at it.
And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.
(Note, I most emphatically am not claiming that the WK isn't overpowered/undercosted, but it's not "just better than an IK in every way against every target". I think it really ought to start out around 350 points with the suncannon, and either option that has D should be quite a bit more.)
Eldar don't care about groups. They have scatterlasers coming out their ears. What the WK brings to the table can not be replicated in the Imperial arsenal for any price, much less its current price.
2016/04/21 16:00:12
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
I'll grant the scatterlasers-out-the-ears, at least with scatbikes (and Warp Spiders for the rest). As for "cannot be replicated for any price"? Hell no, a Warhound Titan does it (and mashes groups to jelly while doing it). Now, fair enough, that's hella more expensive, and almost certainly loses to its points worth of Wraithknights, but you did say "at any price".
The WK is overpowered. But the situation for anyone else isn't quite as dire as you're making it sound.
Now, out of curiosity: if you completely ban Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Wraithknights, Farseer Skyrunners, Autarch Skyrunners and Warlock Skyrunners - are Eldar still so ludicrously OP as to be unbeatable?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 16:00:47
Really?
Shadowswords? Titans? IKs? They may cost more to "do it", but they do it.
FnP is good, but so is front armor 13 or a positional 4++. Or, going bigger, an AV14.
Sure, its a ton more points, but you did say any cost. And it would be much, much better.
Saying SLs mean CWE don't care about Groups is like saying Skyhammer means IoM don't care about WKs. Its absurd. Even if you ignore the SL changes in the current scope.
2016/04/21 16:05:42
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
jade_angel wrote: I'll grant the scatterlasers-out-the-ears, at least with scatbikes (and Warp Spiders for the rest). As for "cannot be replicated for any price"? Hell no, a Warhound Titan does it (and mashes groups to jelly while doing it). Now, fair enough, that's hella more expensive, and almost certainly loses to its points worth of Wraithknights, but you did say "at any price".
The WK is overpowered. But the situation for anyone else isn't quite as dire as you're making it sound.
Now, out of curiosity: if you completely ban Windriders, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Wraithknights, Farseer Skyrunners, Autarch Skyrunners and Warlock Skyrunners - are Eldar still so ludicrously OP as to be unbeatable?
I guess I shouldn't have said for any price, because I always forget those things exist. If you banned those things, then yes. Eldar would probably be down at DA level.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote: Really?
Shadowswords? Titans? IKs? They may cost more to "do it", but they do it.
FnP is good, but so is front armor 13 or a positional 4++. Or, going bigger, an AV14.
Sure, its a ton more points, but you did say any cost. And it would be much, much better.
Saying SLs mean CWE don't care about Groups is like saying Skyhammer means IoM don't care about WKs. Its absurd. Even if you ignore the SL changes in the current scope.
I haven't seen a CWE Eldar list with less than 20 scatterlasers in many, many years.
Even Skyhammer has trouble killing WK, you are probably trading away far more points to maybe kill it than the WK is worth. So even with Skyhammer, IoM cares about WK.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 16:07:24
2016/04/21 16:14:17
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
Windriders: base cost is 60pts pts and each additional Windrider is 20pts, Shuriken Cannons are 10pts each and Scatter Lasers are 15pts
<snip generally accurate, on-point analysis for brevity>
Final thoughts, increase the points per windrider to 24-25pts a model and keep the weapons costs the same as you have them. 40pts a model for a scat bike sounds about right to me. As it stands they are the best troops in the game, T4 3+ save on Jetbikes with unarguably the BEST weapon available to infantry in numbers.
Spoiler:
I respectfully disagree, and this is why: the Windrider with its default twin-linked shuriken catapult is unimpressive. 40 points for a scatbike actually does sound about right, but 25 for an BS4 S3 T4 guy on a bike with 3+ armor and a gun that's R12 S4 AP5 Assault 2 Bladestorm, Twin-Linked is a little bit much. Consider that Shining Spears are already 25 points with a strong CCW and dual-wielding, Skilled Rider and an automatic cover save and they're considered underpowered. (They still have the Windrider's twin-linked shuricat.) What makes the scatter laser seriously nasty is precisely that 36" range combined with the ability for the bikes to kite you an average of 18" per turn. Most other units are hard-pressed to close the gap without 48" guns, and precious few of those have good weight of fire. The shuriken cannon, while effective, is much less scary due to its shorter range (even though, statistically, it's deadlier to heavy infantry and MCs, once you do get into range), while the catapult scares essentially nobody. Yes, it is effective on MEQs and the like, but getting into 12" range without getting shot to hell and gone is actually fairly hard, and if you want to shower someone with shuricats, Guardians actually aren't too bad at it.
I'd propose instead, one of the following:
Base cost 20 points. 15 points for a shuriken cannon, 25 points for a scatter laser.
--XOR--
Base cost 20 points. One model in three may upgrade to a shuriken cannon (5 points) or a scatter laser (15 points).
The heavy weapons being cheap is fine if their number is strictly limited; being numerous is OK if they're expensive. The problem is both. And I agree that the base Windrider is too expensive, but not by a lot. (Alternatively, leave it at 17ppm, but with a 4+ save)
That is probably the best and most reasoned argument for a point increase I have seen so far. The only reason I increased the cost of the bike itself was because scatter lasers are OP cheese but units that can take 1-2 of them aren't OP and shouldn't suffer huge points increases because Scatbikes are BS.
But with that said you and I agree on the 40-45pts a model Scat bike and at the end of the day that is the type of windrider that needs nerfing.
1 ranged D attack kills 1 thing if you're lucky which is very good against your single model powerhouses like your riptides, IK's, GMC's fine...is it going to stop Windrider jetbikes?, Grav bikes?, Warp Spiders? TWC? Deathstars? ...no its got a very specific thing that it's very good at, and if you go with Double D's then you only have the FNP's for your shrieks/ gravs and shenanigans.
The Sword is great for defence and now you have some great striking power in CC, but then you yourself are weak to those very save single shot D weapons and you are prone to tarpits if you're unlucky
Suncannons are great for packed infantry but really lacks focus for everything else...
WK's are too powerful for their points cost...but I think you maybe underestimating the other big toys on the market
No, in my limited experience with WK's and watching bat reps, when people take WK's they take them with 2 Dcannons. And the thing with WK's is that they are a better unit then IK's across the board. Why? because CC. Believe it or not, when there aren't SHV or really expensive vehicles/MC/GMC the Wraithknight reverts to its CC abilities. By that I mean it simply flies (BECAUSE ITS A JUMP GMC) to the nearest blob of infantry and eliminates them in a single turn with stomp. Trust me I have watched my 30 Ork units get destroyed in 1-2 CC phases.
Tar pitting a wraith knight isn't possible, simple as that. D3 Dstrength Stomps = lots and lots of dead models that don't get saves.
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Bharring wrote: Dev Grav squad:
-5 guys @70
-4 Cannons @140
-Combi @15?
-Pod at 35
About 250 points
Grav Cannons wound a WK at:
(2/3)(8/9)(1)(2/3), or about half for a Wraithcannon WK
(2/3)(8/9)(2/3)(2/3) or about 1/3 for others.
So WCannon WK needs 12 shots to die, others need 18.
That unit has 23 shots in 1 round.
How the hell is a WK likely to survive that?
Or are you saying that at 300-400 points for a WK, 250 is too much to pay to kill it?
and what about every other army in the game that doesn't have grav?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 16:21:57
Do folks actually play stomps as always strength D? Stomp is crazy-strong, but it's not that strong. It's usually S6 AP4 (on a 2-5). Only on a 6 do you get "just baleet any models under the blast marker". Now that needs to be nerfed, but it doesn't always do that.
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SemperMortis wrote:That is probably the best and most reasoned argument for a point increase I have seen so far. The only reason I increased the cost of the bike itself was because scatter lasers are OP cheese but units that can take 1-2 of them aren't OP and shouldn't suffer huge points increases because Scatbikes are BS.
Eh, it mostly doesn't matter. Wave Serpents, Falcons, Vypers and Guardians would be fine even if they were forbidden from taking scatter lasers: they usually want shuriken cannons or brightlances anyway. War Walkers would have a bit more trouble, but maybe the starcannon would make a comeback. Wraithknights? Scatter laser, starcannon, what's it matter? Wraithlords? Those exist?
(I keed. I have two Wraithlords, but it's been a while since I've used them...)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 16:29:31
Scamp,
I agree that the WK is OP. But the claim that Skyhammer specifically pays way more than WK prices for a not great chance to kill one is simply false.
2016/04/21 16:33:01
Subject: Re:Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds
SemperMortis wrote:and what about every other army in the game that doesn't have grav?
Or space marine players who simply prefer not to field grav?
If a particular bit of wargear has become an "auto-take necessity," there's an obvious game imbalance.
I'm with Martel. Anything below 400 points for a wraithknight is simply a non-starter for discussion.
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jade_angel wrote: And saying IK weapons suck relative to heavy wraithcannons isn't quite blanket true. The heavy wraithcannons are better for knocking holes in superheavies, MCs and GCs, true. The IK's guns are worse at dealing with tough singletons, but much better at dealing with groups. So, different guns for different purposes, no? That does give the WK the edge in a head-to-head contest, though.
IKs don't have the "jump" special rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/21 16:36:24
2016/04/21 16:42:53
Subject: Simple Balance for Codex Eldar: Craftworlds