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jade_angel wrote:Also, what counts as playing fair by your standards for Eldar?

No shenanigans. Not a single one.

If you so much as even think about smiling when you look at the codex entry, get something else instead. Your list building experience should be a painful, excruciating exercise of self-denial and shame.

Try your hardest to lose the game beforehand (while using all available points).

Then it might be a fair fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Korlandril wrote:That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic

The simple fact is that, on average, to knock 6 wounds off of a wraithknight with plasma gun shots, I have to chuck 81/2 dice at it. Within 24 inches of the thing.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:Yeah, I suppose Fire Dragons are a bit too cheap even if we omit Assured Destruction. 25ppm would be about right, no?

The meltaguns and meltabombs alone are worth 15 ppm. Assured destruction + the other fire dragon abilities and statline = 10 points?

Should have clarified that I meant omitting Assured Destruction altogether. So, maybe 30ppm? Without Assured Destruction, the base abilities without the guns are only worth a little more than a Guardian (due to Ld 9). A Guardian is 9ppm. Dragons lose their plasma grenades, but that mostly doesn't matter, and they do have better Leadership and armor. Also, a lot of weapons get price breaks when the entire squad gets them. Somewhere between 25 and 30, then, and I'll go with 30 since CWE do have other ways to deal with heavy AV and high-T multi-wound stuff.

The issue is that meltabombs and meltaguns are overcosted in 7th ed. Most power units laugh at melta, and that's assuming you survive the mass firepower and live to use them.

Traditio wrote:

Korlandril wrote:That's the problem with having a basic understanding of maths you don't quite understand what you are doing

The average result in this case is almost irrelevant on its own it's more about its distribution across possible wounds, but I'm not going to explain that to you

Try and keep on topic

The simple fact is that, on average, to knock 6 wounds off of a wraithknight with plasma gun shots, I have to chuck 81/2 dice at it. Within 24 inches of the thing.

Or you could get lucky and do it with 6 plasma shots that's probability for you

<REDACTED>

It won't happen in 6 in our lifetimes. 81 is the weighted average, so half the time it will take more!

Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

Traditio wrote:
Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

Cool. Does jade_angel get to make your list for you as well?

 Korlandril wrote:
You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

The point is that your statements about what could happen are meaningless. All that matters for balance purposes is what is likely to happen

Martel732 wrote:
It won't happen in 6 in our lifetimes. 81 is the weighted average, so half the time it will take more!

81/2. So more like 41-42 dice.

Note that this doesn't say anything about the number of plasma guns which would be needed. To take that into account, we'd have to factor in marines committing suicide.

Martel732 wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
You could also possibly never destroy a wraithknight ever

The point is that your statements about what could happen are meaningless. All that matters for balance purposes is what is likely to happen

No lol I'm not going to teach you statistics

I should hope not.

<REDACTED>

jade_angel wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Traditio wrote:
Jade:

I've taken the liberty to construct your next 1850 points list:

Combined Arms Detatchment: Feth Eldar

Illic Nightspear
Karandras

6 X 10 dire avengers
2 X 10 striking scorpions
3 X 1 Vipers, one of which has a spirit stone

Avatar of Khaine

Cool. Does jade_angel get to make your list for you as well?

Here's my attempt:

SM (Imperial Fists - sub in whatever you like), Gladius Strike Force, 1850 points

Battle Demi-Company
Captain - Artificer Armor, jump pack, bolt pistol, power sword
Assault squad - 10x with jump packs, Vet Sergeant with power sword/bolt pistol, 2x flamers
Devastator Squad - 4x lascannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)
3x Tactical squad - Grav-cannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)

Battle Demi-Company
Chaplain - Jump pack
Bike Squad - 3x bikes with TL boltguns, ordinary Sergeant
Devastator Squad - 4x lascannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)
3x Tactical squad - Grav-cannon (Razorback, TL heavy bolter, free)

Armored Task Force
Whirlwind
2x Autolas Predators
Techmarine - Servo-Harness, Bike (attach to bike squad)

Wouldn't stand a chance in hezmana, would it?

I want you to seriously consider this:

What if you played the list that I proposed and you played the list that I proposed.

Sounds like a ton of fun, doesn't it?

Well thanks for the contributions shame some people can't keep on topic...

<REDACTED>

 Korlandril wrote:
Well thanks for the contributions shame some people can't keep on topic...

Ok.

Wraithknights should be 410 ppm and limit 1 per game (except in 2000+ points limits games).
Windrider Jetbikes should be 24 ppm with the limitation that they can only use one heavy weapon per 3 models.
Fire dragons should cost 26 ppm.
Wraithguard should cost 50 ppm without d-scythes. The d-scythes should be an additional 10 ppm.
Eldtritch Storm now reads "blast" and "large blast" respectively. Furthermore, it shall read "EITHER haywire OR AP 3; must be chosen before dice are cast."
The psyker powers conferring rerollable saves are replaced with "increase any given save by 1."
Warpspiders may only jump in the movement and assault phases. Instead, they gain the JINK special rule.
Wraithlords should be increased to 150 ppm.
All other models which I haven't mentioned as needing a points increase (including warpspiders) shall have a 10 percent point increase, except for the melee models.

All models which are not on a bike or are not monstrous or equivalent lose the relentless special rule.

The wraith construct auxillary formation should be removed from the game.

All models except the constructs lose fearless and equivalents.

Done. The Eldar codex is now fine.

I think galef's thought to make bladestorm just be shred + autowound on a 6 is a really good one.

It's still really really good, just not 'armor saves are useless against eldar basic weaponry' good.

Traditio just.... just stop. It stopped being funny a while ago.

These changes are ridiculous. Nerfing Wraithlords? The Phoenix Lords? 26pts for a T3 model that dies the turn after it does anything at best? Eldar can't reroll saves but SM can? Warp Spiders should have Jink for some reason? Everything needs a pt increase?

Your ideas are as ridiculous as me claiming that the Tyranid codex is OP and needs nerfing and Space Marines should cost 1ppm for every single unit..

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I think galef's thought to make bladestorm just be shred + autowound on a 6 is a really good one.

It's still really really good, just not 'armor saves are useless against eldar basic weaponry' good.

I'll second that, at least for catapults, avenger cats and pistols.

Most of those are in the right direction. Some may have gone too far. Maybe.

But some, I don't think are good.

Wraithlords - why 150 points?

Why does Asurmen lose Fearless (or are you considering Phoenix Lords constructs)? Avatar? I suppose I don't get the fearless complaints. The auto-pass or reroll Aspect shenanigans, sure, but the fearless options seem about right.

The across the board points points increases feel wrong too. Why does a Dire Avenger cost *more* than a Marine? Why does a Guardian cost almost as much as a SoB? Falcons? Fire Prisms?

I think you go too far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shred seems too good.

What about reroll 1s and 6s always wound?

Bharring wrote:
Most of those are in the right direction. Some may have gone too far. Maybe.

But some, I don't think are good.

Wraithlords - why 150 points?

It's a T8 monstrous creature with 3 wounds. If bolters can't kill it, it needs to cost more.

Why does Asurmen lose Fearless (or are you considering Phoenix Lords constructs)? Avatar? I suppose I don't get the fearless complaints. The auto-pass or reroll Aspect shenanigans, sure, but the fearless options seem about right.

HQs and constructs can keep fearless.

Everything else loses it.

The across the board points points increases feel wrong too. Why does a Dire Avenger cost *more* than a Marine?

13 X 1.1 = 14.3. Decimals below .5 can round down.

Why does a Guardian cost almost as much as a SoB?

Because every eldar life is precious.

Falcons? Fire Prisms?

Everything. 10 percent. Decimals round down if the decimal is less than .5.

Bolters can't kill a 35pt rhino. No problem.

Bolters can't kill a 120pt MC with no movement beyond walking? Why is that a problem?

Bharring wrote:
Bolters can't kill a 35pt rhino. No problem.

Yes. Yes they can. Rear AV is 10.

I suppose. I more see the Wraithlord as the analogue of the Dreadnought. It costs about the same and survives about the same.

They aren't good at 120. Why up them to 150?

Bharring wrote:
I suppose. I more see the Wraithlord as the analogue of the Dreadnought. It costs about the same and survives about the same.

They aren't good at 120. Why up them to 150?

I can one-shot a dreadnought with an AP 1 or 2 weapon. I can't one-shot a wraithlord.

As I said. They need to cost more.

However, a single grav-cannon will usually kill a Wraithlord that's not in cover. A few lascannons reliably get the job done too.

It's fairly difficult to kill without dedicated firepower, but no more so than an Ironclad Dreadnought. It can take decent guns, sure, but so can a Falcon, and usually I'd rather have a Falcon, because it's faster and also a transport. It's more vulnerable to assault, but a bit less vulnerable to strong AP because of Jink and holo-fields. (Though AP1/2 can instakill it).

That's at current prices. Hike the WL up to 150 and it definitely sits on the shelf full-time, instead of 99% of the time.

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

The guns also cost a lot more on the Wraithlord than other platforms. He doesn't get the "normal" costs.

You can oneshot a Wraithlord with anything ID. Which typically do nothing to a vehicle. And its vulnerable to S5 and the Dread isn't.

Lots of tradeoffs. GW seemed to get those two about equal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He's also saying the Falcon needs to be about 150 stock, more with weapons.

jade_angel wrote:
That's at current prices. Hike the WL up to 150 and it definitely sits on the shelf full-time, instead of 99% of the time.

Lol.

No it won't. If an eldar wants to run the wraithhost (and we know he will), he'll pay the extra 40 points for the wraithlord.

It's either that or no formation.

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

Yes. Precious heavy support/elites that I should be using for something else.