Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

Yes. Precious heavy support/elites that I should be using for something else.

If you don't believe in taking anti tank weapons then you're worse than I thought you were. In no way does forcing you to use anti tank weapons make it unfair. Or will you argue that a Rhino is OP?

Traditio wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
That's at current prices. Hike the WL up to 150 and it definitely sits on the shelf full-time, instead of 99% of the time.

Lol.

No it won't. If an eldar wants to run the wraithhost (and we know he will), he'll pay the extra 40 points for the wraithlord.

It's either that or no formation.

When I do take one, it usually dies to krak missiles, railguns, lascannons, dark lances or something similar before it closes to melee range or does much with its guns.

Yes. Precious heavy support/elites that I should be using for something else.

Or, we make it 150 base but change the weapon costs to be consistent.

Couldn't the same be said for Dreadnoughts? Why should it require heavies/Elites to kill?

One key difference is a naked Marine has a chance to hurt either. But a naked troopers for about half the factions can't hurt either. And the other half can hurt Wraithlords but not Dreadnoughts.

Is... Is that guy constantly pounded into the ground by eldar? He has an almost unhealthy fetish type hate, you can tell... It's almost scary.. And disturbing. His ideas are terrible and simply make them worst codex of all.. Which, they honestly cost TOO much if you ask any sensible person. 10% point decrease, weapons all for free, more formations that cost cheaper, wraithknight gets two sets of extra arms for more weapons for free and gets a 15 points decrease, and that guy stops posting in this thread. Anyone want these proposed rules? Good. Verdict is these are the new rules. Thread closed

pm713 wrote:If you don't believe in taking anti tank weapons then you're worse than I thought you were. In no way does forcing you to use anti tank weapons make it unfair. Or will you argue that a Rhino is OP?

I take anti-tank weapons.

That said, you must understand if I look across the table, see a t8 monstrous creature, a t8 gargantuan creature AND wave serpents and feel as though my devastators are going to be stretched a little thin.

Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:If you don't believe in taking anti tank weapons then you're worse than I thought you were. In no way does forcing you to use anti tank weapons make it unfair. Or will you argue that a Rhino is OP?

I take anti-tank weapons.

That said, you must understand if I look across the table, see a t8 monstrous creature, a t8 gargantuan creature AND wave serpents and feel as though my devastators are going to be stretched a little thin.

Take more.. It's that simple

Pain4Pleasure wrote:His ideas are terrible and simply make them worst codex of all.

Bull.

You'd still smash orks into the ground.

Probably tyrranids too.

And Chaos Space Marines.

Kinda like when you look across the table and see 11 FREE razorbacks?

Spam is spam. That GMC is a problem. But any race can do something similar (to varying degrees of effectiveness).

The T8 mc isn't your problem.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Take more.. It's that simple

Or I could simply refuse to play against eldar cheesemongers.

Even more simple!

So, because my naked guardsmen can't kill a Rhino or Razorback, they're OP?
Neat.

Actually, that's a good point... Of them:

Fire Warriors can hurt Wraithlords in shooting, but not dreads. They can buy Haywire grenades, but that requires Fire Warriors to assault a Dreadnought.
Dire Avengers/Guardians can hurt Wraithlords but not dreads.
Necron Warriors/Immortals: same.
Guardsmen: Neither without upgrades, special weapons or psychic assistance. Both with krak grenades though barely.
Gaunts: Wraithlords, assault only, with toxin sacs only. Otherwise, neither. Genestealers/Warriors can possibly hurt both (Rending).
Kabalite Warriors: Wraithlords but not Dreads. Sybarites can take Haywire Grenades, but that's 15 points of upgrades for 1HP.
Chaos Marines: krak grenades give them a fighting chance against either, as do melta bombs.
Plaguebearers: Dreads but not Wraithlords
Daemonettes: Either, possibly.
Pink Horrors/Bloodletters: Neither.

I know I'm forgetting a few. It actually looks to me like, on balance, Dreads are immune to more base troops than Wraithlords are, but on the flipside, Wraithlords can't usually be one-shotted. Seems approximately even (though I generally think Dreads need a bit of a buff defensively).

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like when you look across the table and see 11 FREE razorbacks?

1. Even with 11 free razorbacks, tau and eldar still vastly outshine marines in terms of killing capacity.

2. I don't think that free razorbacks for minimum 5 man squads should be a thing.

There needs to be less shenanigans overall. Not more.

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Take more.. It's that simple

Or I could simply refuse to play against eldar cheesemongers.

Even more simple!

Even better leave the game! Then everybody wins!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, because my naked guardsmen can't kill a Rhino or Razorback, they're OP?
Neat.

Rhinos can't declare assaults.

Rhinos don't pack a ton of dakka.

Rhinos can't perform AP 2 smash attacks.

Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Kinda like when you look across the table and see 11 FREE razorbacks?

1. Even with 11 free razorbacks, tau and eldar still vastly outstrip marines in terms of killing capacity.

2. I don't think that free razorbacks for minimum 5 man squads should be a thing.

There needs to be less shenanigans overall. Not more.

1) Good thing you don't win most games via killing - Maelstrom relies on mobility, something a full mech Company can do very well.

2) Good for you. It's still there as an option, which I can take if I wanted, regardless of your opinion. And I don't see you nerfing that with the zeal you do for Tau/Eldar.

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, because my naked guardsmen can't kill a Rhino or Razorback, they're OP?
Neat.

Rhinos can't declare assaults.

Rhinos don't pack a ton of dakka.

Rhinos can't perform AP 2 smash attacks.

Wraithlords can't tank Shock.

Wraithlords can't carry units.

Wraithlords aren't cheap and spammable.

Wraithlords can't move a reliable 18".

Sgt_Smudge wrote:1) Good thing you don't win most games via killing - Maelstrom relies on mobility, something a full mech Company can do very well.

Please explain to me the fun of "push models here; hide from the big scary robot until turn 5."

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, because my naked guardsmen can't kill a Rhino or Razorback, they're OP?
Neat.

Rhinos can't declare assaults.

Rhinos don't pack a ton of dakka.

Rhinos can't perform AP 2 smash attacks.

You've not addressed my point.
You say that if naked Tacticals can't bolter a Wraithlord to death, the WL is OP.

If my lasguns can't kill a Rhino, it's OP.
According to you, that is.

Also, a Wraithlord can't transport infantry and have OS. And Rhinos are cheaper.

pm713 wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:Take more.. It's that simple

Or I could simply refuse to play against eldar cheesemongers.

Even more simple!

Even better leave the game! Then everybody wins!

I agree with this guy. And beating orks chaos and Nids? No, eldar should always beat vanilla space marines. That's what I find funny. You constantly post about eldar this eldar that, but are a marine player with just as OP formations and rules and powers, but are never speaking of nerfing them, only nerfing eldar to under them. It shows what kind of gamer you are. No one likes a TFG, especially if he plays marines

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Traditio wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So, because my naked guardsmen can't kill a Rhino or Razorback, they're OP?
Neat.

Rhinos can't declare assaults.

Rhinos don't pack a ton of dakka.

Rhinos can't perform AP 2 smash attacks.

You've not addressed my point.
You say that if naked Tacticals can't bolter a Wraithlord to death, the WL is OP.

If my lasguns can't kill a Rhino, it's OP.
According to you, that is.

Also, a Wraithlord can't transport infantry and have OS. And Rhinos are cheaper.

He'll only bother to answer when he can twist it to suit him.

You do realise a Wraithlord stock packs about as much firepower as a Rhino? 2 Shuriken Catapults.

My point with free Razorbacks is that spam is spam. Whether its all Razorbacks, all Arks, all Serpents, or all Tau skimmers, you're going to be short on antitank. That isn't CWE specific. And its certainly not Wraihlord specific.

Traditio wrote:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:1) Good thing you don't win most games via killing - Maelstrom relies on mobility, something a full mech Company can do very well.

Please explain to me the fun of "push models here; hide from the big scary robot until turn 5."

Oh, I never said it was fun.
I said it was to win.

Of course, I think it would also be rather fun to be able to take any Tau/Eldar army I want without my opponent trying to impose their own house rules on me.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:I agree with this guy. And beating orks chaos and Nids? No, eldar should always beat vanilla space marines.

No one likes a TFG

I completely agree. "No one likes a TFG." Indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Oh, I never said it was fun.
I said it was to win.

Of course, I think it would also be rather fun to be able to take any Tau/Eldar army I want without my opponent trying to impose their own house rules on me.

Even though it forces your opponent to play a game which you yourself agree is not fun.

Oh. Sure. I'm that guy.

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:I agree with this guy. And beating orks chaos and Nids? No, eldar should always beat vanilla space marines.

No one likes a TFG

I completely agree. "No one likes a TFG." Indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Oh, I never said it was fun.
I said it was to win.

Of course, I think it would also be rather fun to be able to take any Tau/Eldar army I want without my opponent trying to impose their own house rules on me.

Even though it forces your opponent to play a game which you yourself agree is not fun.

Oh. Sure. I'm that guy.

Your simple demeanor makes you that guy. That's the truth. That guy isn't always because of what a person plays. It's how a person acts. And when someone acts like.. Well.. You.. No one likes them.

P4P:

I'll simply let your words speak for themselves:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:I agree with this guy. And beating orks chaos and Nids? No, eldar should always beat vanilla space marines.

Traditio wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:I agree with this guy. And beating orks chaos and Nids? No, eldar should always beat vanilla space marines.

No one likes a TFG

I completely agree. "No one likes a TFG." Indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt_Smudge wrote:Oh, I never said it was fun.
I said it was to win.

Of course, I think it would also be rather fun to be able to take any Tau/Eldar army I want without my opponent trying to impose their own house rules on me.

Even though it forces your opponent to play a game which you yourself agree is not fun.

Oh. Sure. I'm that guy.

I've not made any sort of accusation. Please refrain from doing so.
As for my suggestion, it's all about what you want from a game.

Some people want fluff. Others like the bants in a game. Others like to win.
My solution is a winning one, regardless if I use it or not.

Bring Razorback spam if you want. Or not. Just don't complain that you haven't got the option to win.

Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I'll simply let your words speak for themselves:

Says the person who ignores everything they don't like and chants like a cultist.

Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I'll simply let your words speak for themselves:

Those words are correct. The fact you never denied your fact of not wanting YOUR codex nerfed, despite wanting to nerf everyone else's, even when yours is top3, shows your true colors. I was simply stating a fact.

P4P:

I've explicitly called for nerfs to the SM codex and supplements.

The librarius powers need nerfing. The battle company should confer free rhinos for 5 man squads, free razorbcks for 10 man squads. Grav needs to be nerfed. And teleportation needs to die in a fire.

At any rate, for anyone who doesn't know the "fact" that that guy asserted, let me just repeat it one more time:

Pain4Pleasure 6 wrote: eldar should always beat vanilla space marines.

This is the mentality of eldar players.

That is why the eldar codex shouldn't just be nerfed to "balanced" levels. It should be nerfed below orks.

Here are my new proposals to everything:

1000 point wraithknight. Wraithknight becomes a (non-super heavy) walker with 3 hull points. Front, side and rear AV 10. Open topped.

500 point wraithlord. Same deal as above. 2 hull points.

Warp spiders lose the ability to flicker jump, but they GAIN slow and purposeful.

Everything else triples in points costs.

Traditio wrote:
P4P:

I've explicitly called for nerfs to the SM codex and supplements.

The librarius powers need nerfing. The battle company should confer free rhinos for 5 man squads, free razorbcks for 10 man squads. Grav needs to be nerfed. And teleportation needs to die.

Marines shouldn't get free transport period. Librarians should be 15 points more without even these new special powers. Their decurion style formation should go away. No sky hammer either. Tacticals need a 2 ppm increase. Drop pods need a 35 point increase. There needs to be a universal rule of only 1 heavy weapon per marine squad period. Bikers should be 30 ppm more. Also not increase their toughness.

Oh