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Considering that it's a stupid argument I don't blame them.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So you are willing to disenfranchise me and my kids' right to not be exposed to genitalia that we don't want to see (especially my kids at this point in life) because we should just look thenother way.....great argument. I will be sure to use that next time.

Show me in the Constitution where you are expressly, or even by implication, given that right.

The courts have rules that a combination of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th Amendments together create a right to privacy without undue burden. A great many people in this country would consider that and undue burden.

Are you really claiming that a right to privacy is infringed because an individual who is choosing to enter a clearly marked enclosed space specifically used for changing clothes might see someone else...changing their clothes?

 Hordini wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So you are willing to disenfranchise me and my kids' right to not be exposed to genitalia that we don't want to see (especially my kids at this point in life) because we should just look thenother way.....great argument. I will be sure to use that next time.

Show me in the Constitution where you are expressly, or even by implication, given that right.

The courts have rules that a combination of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th Amendments together create a right to privacy without undue burden. A great many people in this country would consider that and undue burden.

Are you really claiming that a right to privacy is infringed because an individual who is choosing to enter a clearly marked enclosed space specifically used for changing clothes might see someone else...changing their clothes?

It seems like his argument would be better suited as a case against mandatory genital inspection and birth certificate laws for using restrooms.

 Hordini wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So you are willing to disenfranchise me and my kids' right to not be exposed to genitalia that we don't want to see (especially my kids at this point in life) because we should just look thenother way.....great argument. I will be sure to use that next time.

Show me in the Constitution where you are expressly, or even by implication, given that right.

The courts have rules that a combination of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 14th Amendments together create a right to privacy without undue burden. A great many people in this country would consider that and undue burden.

Are you really claiming that a right to privacy is infringed because an individual who is choosing to enter a clearly marked enclosed space specifically used for changing clothes might see someone else...changing their clothes?

Yes, specifically because men (anit-trans activitists in particular) have tried to use anti-discrimination laws and enter women's showers before. Their defenses have failed because of these rulings.

 Spinner wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So you are willing to disenfranchise me and my kids' right to not be exposed to genitalia that we don't want to see (especially my kids at this point in life) because we should just look thenother way.....great argument. I will be sure to use that next time.

Again. Great argument for a changing/locker room that has private areas for everyone, as well as private showers. I'm all for it! Let's lobby for that!

That would be one of the fastest bills to ever pass.

If any argument emerged, those for it would simply do a mass disrobe, then get dressed again.

I too support private changing areas for all.

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that it's a stupid argument I don't blame them.

Exactly how is this a stupid argument? Anything to back that up?

If I'm not supposed to be uncomfortable with a transsexual in the room (or more to my worry, my wife and daughter) then why can they worry about showering with me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gitzbitah wrote:

 Spinner wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
So you are willing to disenfranchise me and my kids' right to not be exposed to genitalia that we don't want to see (especially my kids at this point in life) because we should just look thenother way.....great argument. I will be sure to use that next time.

Again. Great argument for a changing/locker room that has private areas for everyone, as well as private showers. I'm all for it! Let's lobby for that!

That would be one of the fastest bills to ever pass.

If any argument emerged, those for it would simply do a mass disrobe, then get dressed again.

I too support private changing areas for all.

THIS, definatly this. I would mandate that all "locker" rooms simply be for storage. All new schools have a row of single-person rooms for bathrooms or showers. A bit like airplane bathrooms, but perhaps a bit bigger.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that it's a stupid argument I don't blame them.

Exactly how is this a stupid argument? Anything to back that up?

If I'm not supposed to be uncomfortable with a transsexual in the room (or more to my worry, my wife and daughter) then why can they worry about showering with me?

Just because you don't see why it's stupid, doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Can I send you a picture of my soaped up man-tackle right now?

Just because this is the cesspool of OT doesn't mean you can ignore Rule #1. And this isn't targeted at just d-usa. I know that some of you feel SUPER strongly about this, and I can definitively say that half of you are totally in the wrong (not saying which half).

So, in conclusion, be nicer in your conversations, and that's why the North won the Civil War.

Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

I really didn't mean it at an insult at all. Just pointing out that it's silly to counter an argument about non-sexual exposure to genitals with "take a shower with me or you are a hypocrite".

He's already okay with same sex locker rooms, so with the logic of his argument he should be okay with me sending nude pictures of me in the shower to him since he is okay with seeing me nude in the locker room.

Or he might see that the argument doesn't make any sense, because even though I might see all my coworkers naked at the gym we are still expected to wear clothes everywhere else. Because situational non-sexual nudity is, surprise, situation specific.

Which is why "if you are okay with transgender folks using the same locker room, then you must be okay with looking at my penis and being nude in front of me right now" falls at being any kind of logical argument.

I'm fine with restrooms and changing rooms since they tend to offer (for the most part) reasonable privacy accommodations.


Unless communal showers address the same issue in a reasonable manner, then it's where I draw the line.


There has to be a middle ground. Period. And I don't give a damned how "progressive" one is. Self-righteous and "to hell with your concerns" attitudes work both ways, people.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

A ton of white people had to suck it up a few decades ago, they survived.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

In all honesty I just feel that you need to examine why it makes you uncomfortable.
The presence of a penis in the women's changing room or lack of one in the men's doesn't mean the person attached to it is no longer a person, with the same intentions as you: Get changed, get out.
Plus, a trans individual us much more likely to be self conscious and getting changed subtly (or at home) than most people.
Chances are you wouldn't be seeing things where you believe they're misplaced, because the human they belong to would rather die than be seen.

And how commonly are you guys seeming genitalia in changing rooms anyway? I've certainly never seen any (although I also haven't been looking).

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

Yes sunshine, you have to suck it up when it comes to being exposed to genitalia.

Just like all those 'nice' folks had to when forced to share schools and buses and so on with people born with better suntans than theirs.

Society is evolving, deal or be remembered by history as one of 'those people'.

 TheMeanDM wrote:

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I don't think it's so much that people aren't willing to see your point of view as that they understand your point of view but disagree with it.

Genitals are just body parts. As a society, we've decided that certain, completely arbitrary body parts are something that we should be embarrassed and ashamed about having and/or seeing, and it simply doesn't make sense.

Children (IMO) would be far better served by being taught that even the bits of our bodies that have a sexual function are ultimately just body parts, and not something to be scared of, rather than to be taught that they need to hide themselves away in case someone sees then naked and is traumatised as a result... The latter is a horrible thing to plug into a developing intellect, but we've been doing it for generations. It's absurd.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
And how commonly are you guys seeming genitalia in changing rooms anyway? I've certainly never seen any (although I also haven't been looking).

Personally, I treat it like a shopping channel.

In all seriousness, I swam from age five to fifteen, and I remember very clearly that the floors were wet, you shouldn't run, discarded band aids were gross, and the pre-pool shower was always way too cold.
I remember the smell of chlorine, and squeaky swim floats. I remember the joy of being towed in the water by a parent if they joined me on rare occasion.
I don't remember how many penises or chuffs I did or didn't see.

 d-usa wrote:
I really didn't mean it at an insult at all. Just pointing out that it's silly to counter an argument about non-sexual exposure to genitals with "take a shower with me or you are a hypocrite".

He's already okay with same sex locker rooms, so with the logic of his argument he should be okay with me sending nude pictures of me in the shower to him since he is okay with seeing me nude in the locker room.

Or he might see that the argument doesn't make any sense, because even though I might see all my coworkers naked at the gym we are still expected to wear clothes everywhere else. Because situational non-sexual nudity is, surprise, situation specific.

Which is why "if you are okay with transgender folks using the same locker room, then you must be okay with looking at my penis and being nude in front of me right now" falls at being any kind of logical argument.

Okay, so if I asked them " hey, let's go to the gym and workout. Then when you go to take a shower, like you always do, and in and area where nudeness is all ready expected and non sexual I come in and take a shower right next to you." I'm willing to bet the disgust at the thought would still be there.

Yeah, it's hard to not compare this to a lot of discussions about racial segregation. The fact that equal treatment would make some people uncomfortable is not a very good justification for discrimination.

 insaniak wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I don't think it's so much that people aren't willing to see your point of view as that they understand your point of view but disagree with it.

Genitals are just body parts. As a society, we've decided that certain, completely arbitrary body parts are something that we should be embarrassed and ashamed about having and/or seeing, and it simply doesn't make sense.

Children (IMO) would be far better served by being taught that even the bits of our bodies that have a sexual function are ultimately just body parts, and not something to be scared of, rather than to be taught that they need to hide themselves away in case someone sees then naked and is traumatised as a result... The latter is a horrible thing to plug into a developing intellect, but we've been doing it for generations. It's absurd.

How many people here look at nudie magazines? If it's just body parts, then why the attraction in the general population, if we're all so sophisticated, with paying money to see people naked?

Relapse wrote:
If it's just body parts, then why the attraction in the general population, if we're all so sophisticated, with paying money to see people naked?

Because nudity is a taboo, so seeing someone nude is a thrill.

Which is also why public breastfeeding still causes controversy. Some people are just completely incapable of separating the body part from the sexual imagery that their brain assigns to it as the result of a lifetime of being told that nipples are rude bits.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

In all honesty I just feel that you need to examine why it makes you uncomfortable.
The presence of a penis in the women's changing room or lack of one in the men's doesn't mean the person attached to it is no longer a person, with the same intentions as you: Get changed, get out.
Plus, a trans individual us much more likely to be self conscious and getting changed subtly (or at home) than most people.
Chances are you wouldn't be seeing things where you believe they're misplaced, because the human they belong to would rather die than be seen.

I am totally for anti-discrimination laws for all members of the LGBT community. I support gay marriage, gay adoption, anti-harassment policy, and allowing trans individuals the use of adequately private bathrooms. I agree that the "naught body parts" taboo is somewhat silly. I also realize that this is a major concern for many people, one that has actually been held up as a constitutional privacy right by the US constitution, which is why men's rooms and ladies rooms are legal in the first place. Until the day when someone is totally fine being in a totally co-ed shower room then they are a little hypocritical about supporting trans issues in locker rooms and shower rooms.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 d-usa wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Considering that it's a stupid argument I don't blame them.

Exactly how is this a stupid argument? Anything to back that up?

If I'm not supposed to be uncomfortable with a transsexual in the room (or more to my worry, my wife and daughter) then why can they worry about showering with me?

Just because you don't see why it's stupid, doesn't mean it's not stupid.

Can I send you a picture of my soaped up man-tackle right now?

Go ahead, send me a pic of your soaped junk. It wouldn't really bother me. In fact I dare you. That being said, kind of an apples or oranges comparison

Yeah, the disgust by how creepy you are being about it. There is a difference between random other people at the gym in the locker room and the guy who wants to shower naked with you to try and prove some sort of point.

Relapse wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I don't think it's so much that people aren't willing to see your point of view as that they understand your point of view but disagree with it.

Genitals are just body parts. As a society, we've decided that certain, completely arbitrary body parts are something that we should be embarrassed and ashamed about having and/or seeing, and it simply doesn't make sense.

Children (IMO) would be far better served by being taught that even the bits of our bodies that have a sexual function are ultimately just body parts, and not something to be scared of, rather than to be taught that they need to hide themselves away in case someone sees then naked and is traumatised as a result... The latter is a horrible thing to plug into a developing intellect, but we've been doing it for generations. It's absurd.

How many people here look at nudie magazines? If it's just body parts, then why the attraction in the general population, if we're all so sophisticated, with paying money to see people naked?

A porn mag is not simply a naked body-part catalogue.
Personally a bunch of disembodied naked body-parts on paper isn't going to do it for me.
It's about context. The setting, the person, the posing the small bits of information included.

The large piece of information included in a changing room is that this person is changing their clothes. This is not in the majority of cases a sexy activity. It's very difficult to look sexy while trying to take off socks.

 TheMeanDM wrote:

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

I am a "parent and a father".... and I disagree with you.

As others have pointed out, we in the US have some really absurd notions of what is considered decent. While not entirely directly related, I see a lot of the same crowd arguing against public breastfeeding of infants. Really? It's a boob. It's a food source. Get the feth over it.

I think that the best argument I have ever heard from a women on why she would support Trans women in the locker room, but not want men in there was something along the lines of "but men are sexually attracted to women, and I'd be afraid that they'd be perving on me".

She then looked rather perplexed when I asked if she was a homophobe that wanted to ban homosexuals from locker rooms as well. (by the way I do NOT support gay bans at locker rooms).

Relapse wrote:

How many people here look at nudie magazines? If it's just body parts, then why the attraction in the general population, if we're all so sophisticated, with paying money to see people naked?

Because situational nudity is situational.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

Men and women have probably had trans or gender dismorphic individuals or whatever they are changing or wizzing next to them already...And they never even knew...how horrible*


*it's not horrible - it just didn't matter.

 Dreadwinter wrote:
Yeah, the disgust by how creepy you are being about it. There is a difference between random other people at the gym in the locker room and the guy who wants to shower naked with you to try and prove some sort of point.

Okay.... So if I had asked them to shower with some totally random guy you think they'd have gone for it?

I thought feelings were not facts.