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 TheMeanDM wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

So... it's not OK if they take an interest in the same sex, or view the same sex as a potential sexual partner... Well, can't say I'm surprised there.

Never said that, thanks!

I know, it's such a massive leap of logic, especially when you specified "Opposite sex" twice in one sentence. How dare he assume that you chose your words on purpose.

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:

How many people here look at nudie magazines?

... nudie magazines? What is this, the early 90s?

Goin' retro!

 TheMeanDM wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

So... it's not OK if they take an interest in the same sex, or view the same sex as a potential sexual partner... Well, can't say I'm surprised there.

Never said that, thanks!

Then why word it the specific way you did? You could just as easily have worded it as to say when your kids become interested in sexual partners, or romance.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

Relapse wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I don't think it's so much that people aren't willing to see your point of view as that they understand your point of view but disagree with it.

Genitals are just body parts. As a society, we've decided that certain, completely arbitrary body parts are something that we should be embarrassed and ashamed about having and/or seeing, and it simply doesn't make sense.

Children (IMO) would be far better served by being taught that even the bits of our bodies that have a sexual function are ultimately just body parts, and not something to be scared of, rather than to be taught that they need to hide themselves away in case someone sees then naked and is traumatised as a result... The latter is a horrible thing to plug into a developing intellect, but we've been doing it for generations. It's absurd.

How many people here look at nudie magazines? If it's just body parts, then why the attraction in the general population, if we're all so sophisticated, with paying money to see people naked?

A porn mag is not simply a naked body-part catalogue.
Personally a bunch of disembodied naked body-parts on paper isn't going to do it for me.
It's about context. The setting, the person, the posing the small bits of information included.

The large piece of information included in a changing room is that this person is changing their clothes. This is not in the majority of cases a sexy activity. It's very difficult to look sexy while trying to take off socks.

I don't buy the context angle, simply because I well remember my high school days and the kids in my daughters school don't appear any different from then.

Relapse wrote:
I don't buy the context angle, simply because I well remember my high school days and the kids in my daughters school don't appear any different from then.

I do... There are a number of magazines that are basically trade publications, or academic journals for artists.... many times their subjects, be it photograph or sculpture (as in, a photograph of a sculpture done by an artist... since it is a magazine afterall ) or painting or pencil drawing, etc, were nude human forms.

There's art, and then there's porn. IMO, they are two completely different things.

Relapse wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:

How many people here look at nudie magazines?

... nudie magazines? What is this, the early 90s?

Goin' retro!

Kids these days don't even know what it was like when the only reliable way to see a titty was a dog-eared National Geographic from the school library.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

You are going to have to start coming to that conclusion to alot of people who deal with the politcally correct types come to. Their beliefs are set in stone, it does not matter what you say or do, they will not change their mind. To avoid creating conflict its better to just ignore them if possible and carry on in life.

 Nostromodamus wrote:

 Steve steveson wrote:
1) "employees and guests". Please tell me they are not referring to customers as guests.

Since coming to the US I've encountered many businesses that refer to their customers as "guests". I found it odd at first too, but I suppose they're just trying to make customers feel more welcome and encourage employees to take better care of them. Meh, whatever, marketing shenanigans at work...

I would consider myself a prisoner in a Target, not a guest lol

 cuda1179 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, and just Devil's advocate here and not being serious.

Hypothetically let's say there is a private health club that disagrees with anti-trans inclusion laws. Is there anything that necessitates them having their facilities labeled "male" and "female"? What if they had custom signs that said "have a penis" and "lack a penis"? Could they then force this issue despite the law?

As I understand the NC law, this would not exempt them from the law, but if they put up signs that said For Men and Women, and For Women and Men, they would be exempt.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, and just Devil's advocate here and not being serious.

Hypothetically let's say there is a private health club that disagrees with anti-trans inclusion laws. Is there anything that necessitates them having their facilities labeled "male" and "female"? What if they had custom signs that said "have a penis" and "lack a penis"? Could they then force this issue despite the law?

As I understand the NC law, this would not exempt them from the law, but if they put up signs that said For Men and Women, and For Women and Men, they would be exempt.

So XX and XY bathrooms would solve the whole issue?

That depends on which issue you're trying to solve.

That's one point.

North Carolina have attempted to solve the problem of transexual people going into lavatories by bringing in a law that prohibits them from going into the lavatory marked "Women" unless they are genetically a woman or in the case of a transexual man, having had complete gender reassignment surgery.

If you are a Phil who wants to become a Phyllis, but haven't yet got there, this law requires you to go into the room marked "Men".

However if the sign on the door says "Men and Women" there isn't a problem.

 =Angel= wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Just out of curiosity, and just Devil's advocate here and not being serious.

Hypothetically let's say there is a private health club that disagrees with anti-trans inclusion laws. Is there anything that necessitates them having their facilities labeled "male" and "female"? What if they had custom signs that said "have a penis" and "lack a penis"? Could they then force this issue despite the law?

As I understand the NC law, this would not exempt them from the law, but if they put up signs that said For Men and Women, and For Women and Men, they would be exempt.

So XX and XY bathrooms would solve the whole issue?

You run into the problem with people with XXY, XXX, and XYY.

Even the NC legislature hasn't yet thought it necessary to genotype people before allowing them to go into the loo.

Relapse wrote:

 Kovnik Obama wrote:

Relapse wrote:

How many people here look at nudie magazines?

... nudie magazines? What is this, the early 90s?

Goin' retro!

I keep a stache around my house for when the internet goes out.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I keep a stache around my house for when the internet goes out.

what does facial hair have to do with internet outtages?? And, hopefully it's a good one, like Burt Reynolds or Tom Skerrit, or heck, even Jeff Bridges

 Nurgle wrote:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
Apparently the majority of women and many of us men who feel that we would rather not change and shower with trans individuals are not allowed to feel uncomfortabl. We just need to suck it up.

I am done with this conversation because you will not change my mind, nor are you willing to see my point of view.

I have already met "your side" half way by stating individual chamging room and insiviidual showers would be fine.

But no....not good enough for you.

So I am not going to keep banging my head against a wall that is obviously never going to, nor willing to, take ten seconds and try to see things from my point of view.....that being a parent and father.

You are going to have to start coming to that conclusion to alot of people who deal with the politcally correct types come to. Their beliefs are set in stone, it does not matter what you say or do, they will not change their mind. To avoid creating conflict its better to just ignore them if possible and carry on in life.

Well, that is a brilliant way to look at things. Even though his statement is pretty wrong considering we have tried to see it from his side multiple times but we still understand that bathrooms are for using the bathroom, not political grandstanding and segregation.

He can keep saying the same thing over and over and trying to use fear as a reason to legislate. We will continue to use facts to shut him down.

We are fortunate that the politically incorrect types have the open mind to look at all the facts and evidence (not feelings based, of course) and come to the best decision on everyone's behalf.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I keep a stache around my house for when the internet goes out.

what does facial hair have to do with internet outtages?? And, hopefully it's a good one, like Burt Reynolds or Tom Skerrit, or heck, even Jeff Bridges

Ron Jeremy . Staches have a lot to do with the internet being out.

Serious questions:

No one finds it a bit dangerous to allow teenage hormones together in the same public place in a state of undress with no supervision or recourse?

Transgenders are not necessarily homosexual, and I personally don't think a teenage transgender female in a female's locker room can avoid the inevitable arousal when looking at the female form. How do you propose to handle this?

Also, a teenage Transgender Male exposes "his" female anatomy to virile hormone laced teenage boys in the Men's Locker Room isn't a problem for anyone?

That being said the issue with sexual based crime continually is not addressed. No one is worried about Transgenders being the aggressors here. People are concerned with sexual predators posing as Transgenders to gain "legal" access, which right now they can't.

MY OPINIONS OF THESE ISSUES ARE IRRELEVANT, SO DON"T RIP ME A NEW ONE. I AM ASKING QUESTIONS.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
Serious questions:

No one finds it a bit dangerous to allow teenage hormones together in the same public place in a state of undress with no supervision or recourse?

Transgenders are not necessarily homosexual, and I personally don't think a teenage transgender female in a female's locker room can avoid the inevitable arousal when looking at the female form. How do you propose to handle this?

Also, a teenage Transgender Male exposes "his" female anatomy to virile hormone laced teenage boys in the Men's Locker Room isn't a problem for anyone?

That being said the issue with sexual based crime continually is not addressed. No one is worried about Transgenders being the aggressors here. People are concerned with sexual predators posing as Transgenders to gain "legal" access, which right now they can't.

MY OPINIONS OF THESE ISSUES ARE IRRELEVANT, SO DON"T RIP ME A NEW ONE. I AM ASKING QUESTIONS.

Well, considering that hetero and homo sexuals exist, A) no one should be getting it on in the shower/locker room, be they boy/girl/lizard creature/half-orcs. Showers and locker rooms are for that only. B) I think the age old "If it bothers you, don't look" carries well, and no one should be touching anyone

Mdlbuildr wrote:
No one finds it a bit dangerous to allow teenage hormones together in the same public place in a state of undress with no supervision or recourse?

We already do this. Or did you forget that gay people, including gay teenagers, exist?

Transgenders are not necessarily homosexual, and I personally don't think a teenage transgender female in a female's locker room can avoid the inevitable arousal when looking at the female form. How do you propose to handle this?

How do you propose to handle the inevitable arousal when a gay man looks at the male form?

Also, a teenage Transgender Male exposes "his" female anatomy to virile hormone laced teenage boys in the Men's Locker Room isn't a problem for anyone?

I suppose it could be a problem, but the solution is to punish the people who behave badly instead of blaming the victim.

People are concerned with sexual predators posing as Transgenders to gain "legal" access, which right now they can't.

And those concerns are just plain ridiculous. Everything those sexual predators would want to do is already either illegal or grounds for removal and permanent banning, so adding another thing to be guilty of isn't going to change anything. Predators are going to prey on isolated victims where it doesn't matter what sign is on the door, nobody is going to be there to help them. The myth of a man coming into the women's bathroom, groping/filming/etc people, and saying "you can't stop me, I identify as a woman" has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

You can ask questions all you want, all they will do is keep taking every word you say and question you have and blowing it completely and utterly out of proportion-- not to mention twisting your words and inserting opinions that you have not brought forth or voiced (ex: not once did I ever mention concerns about predators. ex: I said opposite sex, and immediatelyI am vilified for not being "generic" in my language, and therefore I am called a homophobe...when nobody has any knowledge of me or my experiences with LGBT people).

As much as they claim to be trying to see an opposite point of view, they really arent, merely saying so to try and make themselves look like the good guys....nor is there any intention of compromise...it's all or nothing...to hell with the majority female population...to hell with any concerns that a parent may have....to hell with anybody that disagrees with them on any grounds, really.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
You can ask questions all you want, all they will do is keep taking every word you say and question you have and blowing it completely and utterly out of proportion-- not to mention twisting your words and inserting opinions that you have not brought forth or voiced (ex: not once did I ever mention concerns about predators. ex: I said opposite sex, and immediatelyI am vilified for not being "generic" in my language, and therefore I am called a homophobe...when nobody has any knowledge of me or my experiences with LGBT people).

As much as they claim to be trying to see an opposite point of view, they really arent, merely saying so to try and make themselves look like the good guys....nor is there any intention of compromise...it's all or nothing...to hell with the majority female population...to hell with any concerns that a parent may have....to hell with anybody that disagrees with them on any grounds, really.

You don't speak for the majority female population, nor have the majority female population actually been polled so you have no data to refer to.

I just have to say.. Transgender people were not invented this year, and didn't suddenly spring out of the ground with the invention of tumblr...

Children, adults and teens have been getting changed in the same bathroom as them for decades, if not longer.

With that in mind... Where on record, are the cases of this being problematic?

 Peregrine wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:
No one finds it a bit dangerous to allow teenage hormones together in the same public place in a state of undress with no supervision or recourse?

We already do this. Or did you forget that gay people, including gay teenagers, exist?

Transgenders are not necessarily homosexual, and I personally don't think a teenage transgender female in a female's locker room can avoid the inevitable arousal when looking at the female form. How do you propose to handle this?

How do you propose to handle the inevitable arousal when a gay man looks at the male form?

Also, a teenage Transgender Male exposes "his" female anatomy to virile hormone laced teenage boys in the Men's Locker Room isn't a problem for anyone?

I suppose it could be a problem, but the solution is to punish the people who behave badly instead of blaming the victim.

People are concerned with sexual predators posing as Transgenders to gain "legal" access, which right now they can't.

And those concerns are just plain ridiculous. Everything those sexual predators would want to do is already either illegal or grounds for removal and permanent banning, so adding another thing to be guilty of isn't going to change anything. Predators are going to prey on isolated victims where it doesn't matter what sign is on the door, nobody is going to be there to help them. The myth of a man coming into the women's bathroom, groping/filming/etc people, and saying "you can't stop me, I identify as a woman" has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

You have completely missed the point:

A gay man aroused at another man in a men's bathroom is nothing like a Transgender Female who is not homosexual having an erection in a locker room full of teen females. Do you see how this could be a problem?

A naked Transgender Male in a locker room full of males can be easily overcome by the males in the same locker room. Do you think they will care that this "Male" with female genitalia feels like a Male?

You saying something is ridiculous is your opinion and NOT the opinion of the masses. Hence the problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheMeanDM wrote:
You can ask questions all you want, all they will do is keep taking every word you say and question you have and blowing it completely and utterly out of proportion-- not to mention twisting your words and inserting opinions that you have not brought forth or voiced (ex: not once did I ever mention concerns about predators. ex: I said opposite sex, and immediatelyI am vilified for not being "generic" in my language, and therefore I am called a homophobe...when nobody has any knowledge of me or my experiences with LGBT people).

As much as they claim to be trying to see an opposite point of view, they really arent, merely saying so to try and make themselves look like the good guys....

I feel much like you do. Especially when trying to have a discussion with many of the people in these forums.

 TheMeanDM wrote:
You can ask questions all you want, all they will do is keep taking every word you say and question you have and blowing it completely and utterly out of proportion-- not to mention twisting your words and inserting opinions that you have not brought forth or voiced (ex: not once did I ever mention concerns about predators. ex: I said opposite sex, and immediatelyI am vilified for not being "generic" in my language, and therefore I am called a homophobe...when nobody has any knowledge of me or my experiences with LGBT people).

As much as they claim to be trying to see an opposite point of view, they really arent, merely saying so to try and make themselves look like the good guys....nor is there any intention of compromise...it's all or nothing...to hell with the majority female population...to hell with any concerns that a parent may have....to hell with anybody that disagrees with them on any grounds, really.

Can you just, please show us a source or something. Like a poll, that would be good. Show us a poll where the majority of the female population has been polled specifically about this issue.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

A naked Transgender Male in a locker room full of males can be easily overcome by the males in the same locker room. Do you think they will care that this "Male" with female genitalia feels like a Male?

Hwhat? What do you think happens to kids when they go through puberty? I definitely never considered raping or gang raping anybody during it. I believe I could speak for most of my classmates in also saying that never crossed their minds.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Mdlbuildr wrote:
No one finds it a bit dangerous to allow teenage hormones together in the same public place in a state of undress with no supervision or recourse?

We already do this. Or did you forget that gay people, including gay teenagers, exist?

Transgenders are not necessarily homosexual, and I personally don't think a teenage transgender female in a female's locker room can avoid the inevitable arousal when looking at the female form. How do you propose to handle this?

How do you propose to handle the inevitable arousal when a gay man looks at the male form?

Also, a teenage Transgender Male exposes "his" female anatomy to virile hormone laced teenage boys in the Men's Locker Room isn't a problem for anyone?

I suppose it could be a problem, but the solution is to punish the people who behave badly instead of blaming the victim.

People are concerned with sexual predators posing as Transgenders to gain "legal" access, which right now they can't.

And those concerns are just plain ridiculous. Everything those sexual predators would want to do is already either illegal or grounds for removal and permanent banning, so adding another thing to be guilty of isn't going to change anything. Predators are going to prey on isolated victims where it doesn't matter what sign is on the door, nobody is going to be there to help them. The myth of a man coming into the women's bathroom, groping/filming/etc people, and saying "you can't stop me, I identify as a woman" has absolutely nothing to do with reality.

You have completely missed the point:

A gay man aroused at another man in a men's bathroom is nothing like a Transgender Female who is not homosexual having an erection in a locker room full of teen females. Do you see how this could be a problem?

A naked Transgender Male in a locker room full of males can be easily overcome by the males in the same locker room. Do you think they will care that this "Male" with female genitalia feels like a Male?

You saying something is ridiculous is your opinion and NOT the opinion of the masses. Hence the problem.

Do you think this actually happens? I'm a straight male, and somehow, some way, I am able to keep myself from attacking women in bathing suits. I'm pretty sure I could go to a nude beach and not resort to sexually assaulting women. Something something brain > hormones.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

A gay man aroused at another man in a men's bathroom is nothing like a Transgender Female who is not homosexual having an erection in a locker room full of teen females

Please explain how it's different.

. Do you see how this could be a problem?

Can you find any reports of women in change rooms being assaulted by Transgender people before
before now?

Transgender people have been getting changed and going to the bathroom for an awful long time now. If this was going to be an actual issue, it would have come up long before this discussion started happening.

We have had shared locker rooms and shared bathrooms in Europe for quite a while. Rapes must be through the roof there.