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 CrownAxe wrote:
How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?

I'm just saying. Whoever wrote the rule on p. 185 of C:SM clearly thought that blast weapons roll to hit.

Suggestions to the contrary are simply ridiculous/implausible.

Traditio wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
How is it weird to design a rule with existing rules of the game in mind?

How is "Blasts and Rerolls" a very strange rule?

I'm just saying. Whoever wrote the rule on p. 185 of C:SM clearly thought that blast weapons roll to hit.

Suggestions to the contrary are simply ridiculous/implausible.

No, they clearly thought that "Blasts and Rerolls" existed and so could use it to make Whirlwinds reroll their scatter dice.

Step 1: Roll Scatter die. If Hit, stop. If Scatter, proceed to Step 2.
Step 2: If Scatter is rolled, roll scatter distance. If acceptable, stop. If not acceptable, proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Roll Scatter die. If Hit, stop. If Scatter, proceed to Step 4.
Step 4: If Scatter is rolled, roll scatter distance. Stop.

This is covered in the BRB. You have been provided the exact section where. This. Is. Not. That. Hard.

As CrownAxe said, they knew there was a rules statement that covered this. And this way, when using weapons that aren't Blasts on the Whirlwind, such as a Storm Bolter or Hunter-Killer Missile, the rule still comes into effect.

casvalremdeikun wrote:As CrownAxe said, they knew there was a rules statement that covered this. And this way, when using weapons that aren't Blasts on the Whirlwind, such as a Storm Bolter or Hunter-Killer Missile, the rule still comes into effect.

The rule only applies to the whirlwind missile launchers. Those weapons only fire blasts.

Just saying.

SO, this is another thread where despite the explicit rule stating Blasts Do. not. Roll. To. Hit, Traditio is trying to claim otherwise?

To HIt is a precisely defined in game process. Blast weapons explicitly do not roll To Hit. It is not possible to sensible argue against that position, because as shown by Traditio, the only argument is to chaneg the wording of the rule, and then say THAT means blast weapons roll to hit. WHich is a nonsense.

Here, the Blasts nad Rerolls rules means the Whirlwind launchers can reroll scatter, as they have the ability to reroll their to hit. This is an unqualified abiltiy to reroll, which is unusual, but it doesnt matter, because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability. This has also been proven over and over, and is also why PE works. This is not arguable against without again altering the rules, and is thus proven (in as much as it can be in a ruleset constructed by GW)

So, done here right?

The issue with PE and blasts is not about rerolls to hit, and blasts not rolling to hit. Blasts and rerolls covers the lack of to hit rolls just fine.

The issue with blasts and PE is that PE gives a reroll to hit against a specific taget or group of targets, but blasts and rerolls only cares that the ability to reroll to hit exists(without consideration for rerolls against the target in question)

Personally I never reroll scatter for PE unless it is against said PE(just like the regular to hits). For example if I have a unit with a blast weapon and PE Eldar, and I am firing at an Eldar unit, I will go ahead and reroll t uhh e scatter. If I am instead firing at an Ork unit, I will not ever reroll the scatter even though PE technically grants that allowance.

I disagree. Against your non-PE, if you fired a non-blast, you would NOT have the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. Thus, if you fire a blast instead you cannot be said to have the ability, and thus you may not reroll.

A diference between having the ability, and meeting any criteria on roll to-hit result. Blasts cares about the former, and not a jot about the latter

It is one of those minced words deals.

You have the ability, situationally.

To some, you always have the ability but it can only be used in the listed situations(an American example is concealed carry laws, with a proper licence you may carry a concealed weapon anywhere that does not specifically ban concealed weapons).

To others you only have the ability under the listed situations.

I personally am in the same camp you are, nos, the latter. I just didn't want to restart the argument with the first camp again and went with an example of HIPI(as a path of least resistance) and explaining to the OP what the actual issue with PE and blasts is.

So, yeah, there is no issue about whether or not blast roll to hit(they do not, but a reroll to hit with a blast does allow a reroll on the scatter); it is(historically) an issue of whether PE always allows a reroll on scatter, or only against the PE target.

OK, fair enough

I'm jsut waiting for the next attempt to say blasts DO roll To Hit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
SO, this is another thread where despite the explicit rule stating Blasts Do. not. Roll. To. Hit, Traditio is trying to claim otherwise?

To HIt is a precisely defined in game process. Blast weapons explicitly do not roll To Hit. It is not possible to sensible argue against that position, because as shown by Traditio, the only argument is to chaneg the wording of the rule, and then say THAT means blast weapons roll to hit. WHich is a nonsense.

Here, the Blasts nad Rerolls rules means the Whirlwind launchers can reroll scatter, as they have the ability to reroll their to hit. This is an unqualified abiltiy to reroll, which is unusual, but it doesnt matter, because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability. This has also been proven over and over, and is also why PE works. This is not arguable against without again altering the rules, and is thus proven (in as much as it can be in a ruleset constructed by GW)

So, done here right?

It hasn't been proven, you just keep stating it over and over in a hope people believe it. PE, it doesn't work, the model needs the ability to reroll, and PE does not grant the model the ability. the whirlwind has the ability so it can reroll.

Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

I think PE works on blasts too but I would be lying if I thought it was clear cut. "Ability" isn't very clearly defined and the rule is poorly worded (typical of GW).

But It's pretty clear that Blasts don't roll to hit. The rule book explicitly says so.

Well, Gets hots explicitly states that BS6+ grants the ability to reroll, and has the exact same prerequeisite (rolling a 1 to hit) . It is hard (but, not impossible as has been shown repeatedly) to dismiss identical wording about "ability"as having no relevance.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

So are you claiming that other than the Suppression Force rule, Twin-linked, and Ammo Runts are the only way to (currently) re-roll scatter?

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

So are you claiming that other than the Suppression Force rule, Twin-linked, and Ammo Runts are the only way to (currently) re-roll scatter?

and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

sirlynchmob wrote:
and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

Well done for walking into HJ's trap - all of those require a pre-requisite, namely, a "miss" or a "failed To-Hit roll", the same applies to Guide, Prescience, and most other re-roll granting abilities require such a thing. The ones HJ mentions just grant a flat re-roll.

Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

 Quanar wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
and master crafted, and precognition, and maybe a couple more I can't think of right now.

Well done for walking into HJ's trap - all of those require a pre-requisite, namely, a "miss" or a "failed To-Hit roll", the same applies to Guide, Prescience, and most other re-roll granting abilities require such a thing. The ones HJ mentions just grant a flat re-roll.

Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

rerolling a failed to hit roll or rerolling to hit rolls to me if functionally identical. It's really not worth mentioning or trying to make some point over.

The key to blasts and rerolls is "does the model have the ability"? in the case of master crafted, yes the model has the ability. for PE, no the model does not, the unit can reroll 1 specific thing.

The problem with Nos's position is it allows for ammo runts to reroll blast weapons every turn.
Does the model have the ability? yes
then as they like to add on the condition doesn't matter, ok so the once per turn doesn't matter. When you press them on it, they will admit it is RAW, but you can imagine them cringing while they do it.

So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi"

Glad that's settled

You really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi"

Glad that's settled

You really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

LOL, it's always a treat when you mention the tenets as you violate the tenets.

Please quote the rule where PE grants a model the ability to reroll.

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

Then by all means show how PE grants a MODEL the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

does PE even grant the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls? No

a unit having the ability to reroll to hits of 1 =/= a model having the ability to reroll it's to hit rolls.

still on about BS6? are you ever going to quote the part you only gain the reroll when you roll a 1, so until a 1 is rolled the model does not have the ability to reroll.

-- Check the wording of Preferred Enemy [Page 169 of the BRB] and you might find that it does grant a model the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls against any and all Preferred Enemy targets.
-- Yes it does grant to ability to re-roll To Hit rolls. Check the wording.
-- Yes and no. The ability to re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 is simple a sub-set of being able to re-roll failed To Hit rolls.
-- Yep, rolling a 1 is required to get the re-roll, and from the wording of "Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better", any re-roll conferred from a source other than having a BS of 6 or better takes precedence.

Quanar wrote:Honestly, I was rather hoping this thread wouldn't stray into covering PE, and would just cover those posters from previous similar threads that didn't think Blast Weapons and Re-rolls actually granted Blasts re-rolls from abilities like Guide or Prescience.

So you'd hoped Preferred Enemy wouldn't get covered in this thread even though the OP explicitly mentions it? Righteo...

Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better wrote:If a model has a Special Rule that already confers it a re-roll To Hit (like a Master-Crafted weapon, for example), then that re-roll takes precedence and the chart above is not used. Instead, the chance of hitting with the re-roll is the same as the first shot, depending on the firer's Ballistic Skill. Remember, a dice can only ever be re-rolled once!

Preferred Enemy wrote:This Rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (x) where X identifies a specific type of foe. if the Special Rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of that unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this Special Rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Would rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. this applied to both shooting and close combat attacks.

Blast - Blast Weapons and Re-rolls wrote:If a model has the ability to re-roll it's rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing the last Weapon, the player must re-roll both the Scatter Dice and the 2D6.

So from the first quote, it is easily seen that Preferred Enemy takes precedence when firing against a target that is a Preferred Enemy of the firing unit.

From the wording of Preferred Enemy, I take it to mean that any model (or every model within a unit that contains at least one model with with this Special Rule) can re-roll failed To Hit rolls of 1 against their Preferred Enemy. (In all honesty, I'd originally forgot that it was only on failed rolls of 1).

Finally, Blast Weapons and Re-Rolls says that if a model has the ability to re-roll failed To Hit rolls (which Preferred Enemy confers on a failed roll of 1), then this is where it gets tricky. So how well does this play with PE? Because it does grant a re-roll To Hit which means that the Blast Weapon can re-roll the Scatter Dice and the 2D6, but the condition that it's on a failed roll To Hit of 1 makes it difficult.

So unless somebody can find a specific rule or an official FAQ question about how this translates (which I'm really hoping somebody can), then I think it goes like this (bear in mind this is HIWPI):

(1) If an arrow is rolled on the Scatter Dice, then the player gets to re-roll the Scatter Dice, but must also re-roll the 2D6 and accept the final result on both. [My preference of how to play it.]

-- or --

(2) If an arrow appears on the Scatter Dice and at least one '1' appears on the 2D6, the the player re-rolls the Scatter Dice and the 2D6 and accept the final result on both. [This one sounds a bit iffy to me, but it's still not an entirely unreasonable interpretation].


To Conclude:

(1)So in the generic case of having a re-roll which allows a re-roll of failed To Hit rolls, a Blast Weapon may re-roll the Scatter Dice (but must also re-roll the 2D6).

(2) In a more specific case where it specifies you only get the re-roll of a roll of 1 when rolling To Hit, I think it would be a case of HIWPI combined with agreements made on how to handle it by all players involved.

Conclusion (2) will be invalidated if someone can find a rule that makes specific reference to a case like Preferred Enemy and Blast Weapons.

 IllumiNini wrote:
So you'd hoped Preferred Enemy wouldn't get covered in this thread even though the OP explicitly mentions it? Righteo...

Yeah, no idea why I was thinking that, carry on everyone!

Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll Blasts

Blasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.

WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important.

THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll Blasts

Blasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.

WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important.

THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

Well in all honesty, I don't think the whole "How Good" thing is a trap at all because it's conditional. It adds an extra consideration to it.

That being said, I can appreciate the fact that you are more than likely right on this since - regardless of the conditioning - it, as you said, has the ability. So I think we've solved the problem. PE (and anything else that grants Re-rolls on To Hit rolls) will allow Blast Weapons to re-roll the Scatter Dice and 2D6.

Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any function

For some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed over

ITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any function

For some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed over

ITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

odd I haven't made that argument, you must be arguing with the voices in your head again.

Show where PE grants a model the ability to reroll. Still waiting. And that is the only reason PE does not work with blasts.

I know you just want to use ammo runts every turn in the game, but at least read the question, and answer the question, and follow the tenets.

I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

Traditio wrote:
In a previous thread in this subforum, there was a debate about whether PE confers the ability to reroll the scatter dice for a blast template.

This argument ultimately involved me arguing that blast weapons roll, in some sense, to hit.

My question:

P. 185 of the space marines codex (the rules for the suppression force) explicitly gives the whirlwinds in that formation the ability to reroll TO HIT when firing their whirlwind multiple missile launchers.

All of the whirlwind missile launchers fire large blasts.

My question: RAW, if blast weapons do not roll to Hit, does this mean that the suppression force formation actually provides no advantage whatsoever?

GW screwed that one up. It should be like the formation out of the damnos book. It says re-roll the scatter die.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure