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Naw wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I am confused here. Blast weapons and re-rolls has been quoted many times and the only requirement laid out is that if the model has the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls they can choose to do so but must re-roll both scatter dice.

It doesn't require actual rolling of To Hit dice.

Why then would this not work with PE, Whirlwinds, BS6+ and whatnot?

Because most of them come with qualifications and for some reason those qualifications limit when you have the ability to reroll.

I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure

It's not the what you are attacking that is the qualification, it is the specific Roll that they feel needs to be achieved in order to be able to reroll, i.e. the 1 To Hit. Never mind that most of the other To Hit Rerolls also require a Miss of some kind in order to be able to reroll like Twin Linked.

I do not agree with this, personally, but that is how it is how it has been explained to me. I feel that this is a over analyzing the term "ability" to its most restrictive interpretation. It's almost like limiting your identification as a painter by not only if you have a brush and paint, but how good your brush is and how strong your technique is or by how much you get paid to paint.

 Charistoph wrote:

Naw wrote:
I didn't mean that PE Space Marines would let you reroll against Tau. Is this what the argument is about? Even after reading the thread I'm not sure

It's not the what you are attacking that is the qualification, it is the specific Roll that they feel needs to be achieved in order to be able to reroll, i.e. the 1 To Hit. Never mind that most of the other To Hit Rerolls also require a Miss of some kind in order to be able to reroll like Twin Linked.

I do not agree with this, personally, but that is how it is how it has been explained to me. I feel that this is a over analyzing the term "ability" to its most restrictive interpretation. It's almost like limiting your identification as a painter by not only if you have a brush and paint, but how good your brush is and how strong your technique is or by how much you get paid to paint.

Ah, so this is the other discussion. What PE actually says is that ... re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1. What the rule doesn't say is Re-rolls To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1. I guess that's where the argument comes from. Some read it to say that any failed To Hit rolls and To Wound rolls of 1, whereas others that both To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1.

As I don't have PE with any of my armies, I haven't paid any attention to the actual wording of the rule, I've just trusted what my Necron opponent has told me. Just goes to show that you should always verify what the rule really says

To summarize, PE does not give the ability to re-roll blast weapons, ever. How I'd (and will continue to) play it: Go ahead and reroll both dice.

Naw wrote:
[quote=Charistoph 688235 8605933 f45b9b45c8512f4742541d2a5a08a68d.jpgTo summarize, PE does not give the ability to re-roll blast weapons, ever. How I'd (and will continue to) play it: Go ahead and reroll both dice.

The thing is, what happens after that qualification is accomplished? You get to reroll. And that is the other side of the equation.

Does Preferred Enemy provide a reroll To Hit? Yes, it does. It is more restricted than Twin Linked and has the same target number of a reroll that BS 6+ has, but the ability to reroll is still there. The Blast Rerolls rule doesn't care about the To Hit Roll, since it does not use them, so it looks for what it would have if it wasn't Blast.

Would Preferred Enemy provide a reroll to anyone not on its list? No. So, a PE Blast against something you have no PE with would not work.

 Charistoph wrote:

Would Preferred Enemy provide a reroll to anyone not on its list? No. So, a PE Blast against something you have no PE with would not work.

and why would it not ? you still have the ability to re-roll. You are not fulfilling the requirement with needing to roll a 1 on to hit either. Why only use 1 restriction and not both or neither ?

Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

Especially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

Especially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

This is where your argument is consistently wrong. BS6 gives you the opportunity to GAIN a reroll, it does not grant one. This is obvious to anyone who reads page 33.

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the ability

If you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the ability

If you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

Did something take away the PE ability or make it invalid ? No it did not . BTW nothing was proven , you saying something was proven doesn't prove anything

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote:

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works

Nice straw man! Or, how about responding to the actual rules.

Which define bs6+ as granting the ability to reroll to hit.

So, 0 for 2.

I would love to respond to the actual rules however the person that made this assertion ( you ) did not provide rules in the first place so there is nothing for me to do. Its not a straw man , its YOUR actual argument on why you are re-rolling blasts with PE . I'm just pointing out that if you hand wave the need to roll a 1 to hit requirement

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote:because Blasts and Rerolls places NO qualifying criteria on "how good" your ability IS, just that yuou HAVE an ability.

, nothing stops anyone from hand wave the requirement to even fire at your PE race. If your going to assert PE grants re-rolls , you really need to be consistent with how your applying your rules

I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

Wow. How many times do we have to go through this? PE gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll a 1 on 2D6. In the rulebook the blast section covers re-rolls. Look it up. Geez.

 Kavish wrote:
Wow. How many times do we have to go through this? PE gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll a 1 on 2D6. In the rulebook the blast section covers re-rolls. Look it up. Geez.

BS6 gives re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. Firing a twin-linked weapon when you are BS5 gives you re-rolls of to hit rolls of 1. You can't roll 1 on 2D6. If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit.

What was your point?

Hmm? We haven't even tried rerolling scatter with high BS. We have just been happy to reduce the scatter distance by an inch or two with Riptide.

I understand why you would argue this from a rules perspective and I believe you are right, we just don't play it that way. Funnily enough PE works differently to this, but we have been okay with always rerolling provided the circunstances are there (actual PE as target), but from the rules perspective it conflicts with the blast rules.

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

No, the arguments have been provided in many threads. If you have something new - and for the record, you DONT - then post it here. Or start a new thread.

However until then, the case is proven.Try a rules argument sometime, it may benefit you.

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question.

If you have something constructive - a first, you usually just claim I never present rules, and slink away when proven wrong - please, do so. Or open up a new thread.

Until then, youre serving no purpose.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question.

You have done no such thing . This thread is only 3 pages long , its very easy to see you are lying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, they get to reroll their scatter, because they have the ability to reroll to-hit
Blast weapons explicitly do not roll to hit. The rule stating such was given quitre a few times. It is impossible to state they do roll to hit given this rule.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I disagree. Against your non-PE, if you fired a non-blast, you would NOT have the ability to reroll your to-hit rolls. Thus, if you fire a blast instead you cannot be said to have the ability, and thus you may not reroll.A diference between having the ability, and meeting any criteria on roll to-hit result. Blasts cares about the former, and not a jot about the latter

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
OK, fair enough I'm jsut waiting for the next attempt to say blasts DO roll To Hit

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Against the PE, it has the ability to reroll to hit. Proven. rolling a 1 is onoly a quality of how good the reroll needs to be. Proven, over and over.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well, Gets hots explicitly states that BS6+ grants the ability to reroll, and has the exact same prerequeisite (rolling a 1 to hit) . It is hard (but, not impossible as has been shown repeatedly) to dismiss identical wording about "ability"as having no relevance.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you admit it IS raw then? Glad to know you've simply been flouting the tenets, again, by failing to mark your posts "hiwpi" Glad that's settledYou really did walk head first into that trap. It's even one you've fallen for before.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Illumini - youre falling into the trap of even considering "how good" a reroll you need to have BEFORE you can reroll BlastsBlasts and rerolls is unqualified. It cares NOTHING about "how good" your reroll is; just that you HAVE the abiltiy.WIth PE at your PE you HAVE the ability. Indisputable by those not ignoring the written rules. And, as we know that Blasts NEVER roll To Hit, we KNOW that any condition on the To Hit roll cannot be important. THe anti-RAW side make Blasts and Rerolls only work with Twin linked and a couple other edge cases.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Well it must be a trap - because you can never roll To Hit, so any condition placed on how well you have hit must be ignored. If it isnt ignored - and luckily for us, it is! - you end up with the rule not having any functionFor some reason the sirlynch et al crowd like to hand wave away the difference between reroll to hit rolls, and reroll failed to hit rolls as unimportant, yet then conveniently whistle in the air when you talk about a twinlinked BS5+ model vs a BS5+ model with preferred enemy. They both "fail" on exactly the same number, yet for one they claim you DONT care about "how well" they failed, the other they do. Even though you never roll to hit, but that just gets glossed overITs an argument so shot through of every hole imaginable its a wonder they still bother arguing.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obviousEspecially as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because you don't have the ability at all when not firing at your PE. It's only slightly obvious

But you still have the ability to reroll , you just can't meet the prerequisites , it is no different from requiring to roll a 1 to hit Which you say you get to ignore because " it doesn't matter how good a re-roll is"

No, you do not have the abilityIf you were firing a bolter, you could not reroll ANY to hit roll, regardless of the result. So, no ability to reroll to hit. Proven. Again.

nosferatu1001 688235 8609155 nullEspecially wrote: as one qualifier cannot ever apply to any blast weapon, as we know, for a fact, that they never roll To Hit. And we know, for a fact, that bs6 grants the ability.

So if you cannot fulfill a qualifier you get to ignore its existence an do it anyways ? ? I'm pretty sure that's not how it works Nice straw man! Or, how about responding to the actual rules. Which define bs6+ as granting the ability to reroll to hit. So, 0 for 2.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however. The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here. No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all. Bs6+ you always have the ability. Ability != quality.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:

kambien wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however. The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here. No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all. Bs6+ you always have the ability. Ability != quality.

So your going to ignore the tenets of the forum then ?

No, the arguments have been provided in many threads. If you have something new - and for the record, you DONT - then post it here. Or start a new thread. However until then, the case is proven.Try a rules argument sometime, it may benefit you.

No quote with page reference

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have backed up the argument. I referenced the rules in question. If you have something constructive - a first, you usually just claim I never present rules, and slink away when proven wrong - please, do so. Or open up a new thread.Until then, youre serving no purpose.

No quote with page reference
Now that i have shown you are full of ork gak by quoting EVERY thing you posted just to prove your full of it , it only comes to 1 question.
Do you even have a rulebook ????????
You managed to "PROVE" things 5 times without quoting and referencing a single rule form the rule book. You have shown no rules , you hand waive others quoted and referenced rules all the time , you point to the tents of the forum and yet never follow them and the only reason it was tolerated for so long was that rigeld was white knighting for you and posting all the relevant rules , but that was well over a year ago they stopped posted it seems, so its been that long since any of your arguments have had any rules support.

Did I say "page reference" or "referenced"?

Are you aware of the difference? A page number is not required with the latter

Yes, I own a rulebook. I have given page referecnes and cites many times. I just do not feel that is required for THIS topic in THIS thread, because it has been stated so many times.

Instead of getting quite so worked up, if you have a problem here is a tip: use the triangle of friendship.

Are you really saying it has been ONE YEAR since I posted any rules support? WOuld yo ucare to retract that BALD FACED LIE or do I have to post links, AGAIN?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684467/8542453.page#8542453

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/684520/8541170.page#8541170

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/683855/8534005.page#8534005

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http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/683855/8533970.page#8533970

Thats the last month. Oh, and look - a lot of them are from the last PE vs Blasts thread. Which I referenced above

Perhaps you should avoid your own confirmation bias.

ENOUGH. Next post that I judge to be directed at arguing about the other poster, rather than discussing the rules, gets that poster suspended.

RULE #1 - IT IS MANDATORY.

FINAL IN THREAD WARNING.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have been consistent. Your inability to spot the difference between two distinct concepts makes it trickier to,explain, however.
The rules were given as nauseum, in every other thread. Which you know. So, find them, and come back here.

No hand waving, at all. Firing at a non-PE target, you have no ability at all.

Bs6+ you always have the ability.

Ability != quality.

^^^^
This is where you need to show the rules support.

You claim conditions don't matter, yet for PE you apply one and not the other. is PE an ability to reroll or not? If as you say it is, then why would the target matter?

BS6, you do not always have the ability, that is demonstrably wrong. It gives you a chance to gain the ability, and until you gain the ability you do not have it. Pg 33

What is required to be able to reroll blast weapons?. PG 158. The MODEL needs to have the ability. PE does not grant models the ability, nor can you gain the ability with BS6.

Gets Hot defines BS6+ as "the ability to reroll To Hit" - regardless of what page 33 states

Blast Weapons and Re-rolls If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.

When I read the above rule the word that seems to me to cause the issue is ability. When I read this rule I do not read the word ability as in an ability or a special rule. I read the word ability as in capability, or the ability to do something. If a model is capable of rerolling to hits it can reroll blasts.

In the case of preferred enemy if I have PE orks and shoot a bolter at the tau it doesn't mater what I roll I do not have the capability to reroll. That model does not have the ability to reroll to hit so if the same model were to shoot a blast at a poor ethereal I still could not reroll as it did not have the ability to do so.

Now if I shot at an ork unit I do have the capability to reroll the bolter so I'd be able to reroll a blast. I guess this depends on how you read the word ability, so this might just be hiwpi as I have no rules evidence to prove what definition of ability is used here but in that sense however you read it it just becomes RAI. It does seem clear to me though that it is intended to be read as capability. I never even stopped to think about it any other way until this thread

This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

Preferred Enemy: This rule is often presented as Preferred Enemy (X) where X identifies a specific type of foe. If the special rule does not specify a type of foe, then everyone is a Preferred Enemy of the unit. A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1 if attacking its Preferred Enemy. This applies both to shooting and close combat attacks.

This special rule gives models in the unit the capability to reroll to hit so using the situation I stated above, this would allow the model to reroll blasts.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Gets Hot defines BS6+ as "the ability to reroll To Hit" - regardless of what page 33 states

Rulebook, page 33 wrote:
Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better
If a model has BS 6 or higher, it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 To Hit with ranged attacks.

So it never had the re-roll in the first place

Zarroc1733 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

In short, yes.

Pg 156 unless specified otherwise a model does not have a special rule.

PE is a unit level ability, and does not give the models that ability, which is required for rerolling blasts.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Zarroc1733 wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
This, above

Gets Hot also uses "ability" but gives examples of what it considers such an ability - and includes BS6+ in that definition.

BS6+ "triggers" on the same roll as PE does. Claiming one is an ability (which you must do, to abide by the rules) while claiming the other isnt, is asinine.

Now if only you could prove that PE grants a model the ability. Until you can do so, PE will not grant a reroll for blast weapons.

Keep waving that red herring, How does an ability that only lets you reroll the get's hot die, while ignoring the actual rules for BS6 proof of anything?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. Is your argument that the wording of preferred enemy grants the ability to the unit not the model? And the wording of blasts and rerolls requires the model to have the ability because if that's your argument then my previous post addresses that too.

In short, yes.

Pg 156 unless specified otherwise a model does not have a special rule.

PE is a unit level ability, and does not give the models that ability, which is required for rerolling blasts.

Unless you read ability as capability. But again without knowing what definition of ability is intended here we could keep going around so I'll take my exit here.