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 Sidstyler wrote:
I knew one of them would be a Space Marine flyer. Never bet against Marines.

Looks like you were way off on your prediction, Kanluwen. Which is sad, because despite everyone bitching about how overpowered Tau are, a plastic barracuda would have made a lot of sense...especially since it's now OOP at FW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But it still grinds my gears that they're retconning the prior fluff, especially as they do it in a way that just pisses all over the Imperial Navy.

Yeah, I have to admit the whole "[New Flyer] is the backbone of the Astartes air support..." made me laugh. Well, you mean it is now. Up until a week ago it didn't exist, unless you're saying that squadrons of these things have always been around, just off-camera to the left there, without us noticing.

It's exactly that, yeah. They kinda wrote themselves into a corner with Marines it seems. They want to keep making endless new models for Marine players to buy because Marines are their baby, their poster boys, their biggest sellers; but the problem is they wrote the fluff in a way that kinda makes it hard to give them anything new because of that whole, you know, "the backwards Imperium doesn't invent or innovate anymore and is regressing technologically" thing. So for the past few years we've just gotten this constant bullgak like "Oh, look at this old STC we found!" or "Let's just pretend we had this all along, 'kay?"

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I knew one of them would be a Space Marine flyer. Never bet against Marines.

Looks like you were way off on your prediction, Kanluwen. Which is sad, because despite everyone bitching about how overpowered Tau are, a plastic barracuda would have made a lot of sense...especially since it's now OOP at FW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But it still grinds my gears that they're retconning the prior fluff, especially as they do it in a way that just pisses all over the Imperial Navy.

Yeah, I have to admit the whole "[New Flyer] is the backbone of the Astartes air support..." made me laugh. Well, you mean it is now. Up until a week ago it didn't exist, unless you're saying that squadrons of these things have always been around, just off-camera to the left there, without us noticing.

It's exactly that, yeah. They kinda wrote themselves into a corner with Marines it seems. They want to keep making endless new models for Marine players to buy because Marines are their baby, their poster boys, their biggest sellers; but the problem is they wrote the fluff in a way that kinda makes it hard to give them anything new because of that whole, you know, "the backwards Imperium doesn't invent or innovate anymore and is regressing technologically" thing. So for the past few years we've just gotten this constant bullgak like "Oh, look at this old STC we found!" or "Let's just pretend we had this all along, 'kay?"

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

Yeah, the game and the setting would have been so much better if marines were really strong, but kept few in number with limited options, and encouraged to supplement other Imperial forces.
The guard should have been the baseline, not the marines.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:
I knew one of them would be a Space Marine flyer. Never bet against Marines.

Looks like you were way off on your prediction, Kanluwen. Which is sad, because despite everyone bitching about how overpowered Tau are, a plastic barracuda would have made a lot of sense...especially since it's now OOP at FW.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
But it still grinds my gears that they're retconning the prior fluff, especially as they do it in a way that just pisses all over the Imperial Navy.

Yeah, I have to admit the whole "[New Flyer] is the backbone of the Astartes air support..." made me laugh. Well, you mean it is now. Up until a week ago it didn't exist, unless you're saying that squadrons of these things have always been around, just off-camera to the left there, without us noticing.

It's exactly that, yeah. They kinda wrote themselves into a corner with Marines it seems. They want to keep making endless new models for Marine players to buy because Marines are their baby, their poster boys, their biggest sellers; but the problem is they wrote the fluff in a way that kinda makes it hard to give them anything new because of that whole, you know, "the backwards Imperium doesn't invent or innovate anymore and is regressing technologically" thing. So for the past few years we've just gotten this constant bullgak like "Oh, look at this old STC we found!" or "Let's just pretend we had this all along, 'kay?"

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

It's like the Mentors chapter don't even exist anymore!

 Yodhrin wrote:

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Even ignoring traditional roles, the more diversified the equipment gets, the silllier the 1000-man limit on the Chapter gets.

Now we have Terminators, Centurions, bikers, Landspeeder pilots, transport drivers, crew for an ever -increasing stable of tanks, and now an air wing... It's all leaving precious few Marines to flesh out tactical squads..

 Yodhrin wrote:

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

How old is this fluff you are talking about and any idea where I might find it? Because I know that as far as the start of the Horus Heresy series (when I started following 40k), Battle Fleet Gothic and even Dawn of War era stuff they all had marines with armoured tank, battleship, gunboat and assault craft.

 insaniak wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Even ignoring traditional roles, the more diversified the equipment gets, the silllier the 1000-man limit on the Chapter gets.

Now we have Terminators, Centurions, bikers, Landspeeder pilots, transport drivers, crew for an ever -increasing stable of tanks, and now an air wing... It's all leaving precious few Marines to flesh out tactical squads..

Isn't that the loop hole of the codex astartes rule. They must have less than 1000 man in the company. But, all the support personnel is in surplus meaning a chapter number is far superior because they got tons of techmarine, servitor, apothecary, chaplain, librarians, special veterans,...


I really like the new marines interceptor. He will look great next to my Dark Talon and the Xiphon.

 insaniak wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Even ignoring traditional roles, the more diversified the equipment gets, the silllier the 1000-man limit on the Chapter gets.

Now we have Terminators, Centurions, bikers, Landspeeder pilots, transport drivers, crew for an ever -increasing stable of tanks, and now an air wing... It's all leaving precious few Marines to flesh out tactical squads..

To be fair, its pretty easy to modify the lore so that its the chapter serfs who do the driving and piloting, and not the marines.
That's probably not going to happen though.

 Yodhrin wrote:
It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

They should make Space Marine titans. You know you want it!

I'm frankly amazed that space marines don't yet have titans.

Like, straight up flabbergasted that that's their point of restraint.

I was fully expecting a space marine, with his helmet off, piloting a dreadknight, piloting a titan-sized dreaddreadknight.

The space marine air wing thing doesn't actually bother me that much fluff wise. I can't imagine there are humungous squadrons floating about. Probably only 10 pilots total/active at a time (not including thunder hawk). When most large engagements for the chapter probably only consist of 100 marines on the ground, you only require what, 2 or 3 interceptors, if that?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Yeah, the game and the setting would have been so much better if marines were really strong, but kept few in number with limited options, and encouraged to supplement other Imperial forces.
The guard should have been the baseline, not the marines.

Well. Customers disagreed.

 insaniak wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

It's not even the "oh no, we totes had those things lying about in the armoury all the time, Brother Goober flew one just last week, didn't you see?" thing, it's that in their desperation to keep bloating Marines as a faction they trampling all over the actual point of Space Marines in the(now old, apparently) fluff, and all over the supposed roles of the other factions.

Even ignoring traditional roles, the more diversified the equipment gets, the silllier the 1000-man limit on the Chapter gets.

Now we have Terminators, Centurions, bikers, Landspeeder pilots, transport drivers, crew for an ever -increasing stable of tanks, and now an air wing... It's all leaving precious few Marines to flesh out tactical squads..

To be fair, bikes and landspeeders are manned by Assault Marines (often from reserve companies). Same goes for Centurions, they are Devastors. Tmerinators are 1st company Vets and only equip TDA, when they need to, otherwise they are 'normal' verterans.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm frankly amazed that space marines don't yet have titans.

Like, straight up flabbergasted that that's their point of restraint.

I was fully expecting a space marine, with his helmet off, piloting a dreadknight, piloting a titan-sized dreaddreadknight.

Sounds cool!

 NidLifeCrisis wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm frankly amazed that space marines don't yet have titans.

Like, straight up flabbergasted that that's their point of restraint.

I was fully expecting a space marine, with his helmet off, piloting a dreadknight, piloting a titan-sized dreaddreadknight.

Sounds cool!

NEW FROM FORGE WORLD!

 A Watcher In The Dark wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

Space Marines were Super Future Space Templar Special Forces Monks, that was their appeal. The post-Heresy division of military power in the Imperium was a cool bit of fluff. Now all of that is out the window because the Space Marines had to be able to be SFSTSFM and field tank battalions and an air force, and be the best at all of them, so the elite Special Forces unit that was supposed to be banned by Imperial Decree from operating air & space fighters & bombers because that role was given to the Imperial Navy(hence why technically even Guard Valkyries are Navy assets with Navy pilots on secondment) are now trotting around with gunships and superiority fighters galore, and of course they're the bestest gunships and fighters ever, much more bestest than those silly normal human planes which are poo so you should buy more Spehz Marinz

How old is this fluff you are talking about and any idea where I might find it? Because I know that as far as the start of the Horus Heresy series (when I started following 40k), Battle Fleet Gothic and even Dawn of War era stuff they all had marines with armoured tank, battleship, gunboat and assault craft.

Is there a Warhammer-equivalent of "let me google that for you"? How old it is is irrelevant, GW fluff remains valid until it's explicitly contradicted, and it's that recent contradiction that's being remarked on.

Battlefleet Gothic is a good start though, as it includes specific blurbs about how controversial it was for the Marines to equip even an Escort-class vessel with lance weapons, since they were not supposed to possess any dedicated anti-line-ship vessels at all. Space Marine ships are supposed to be short-ranged and primarily focused on planetary assault; bombardment cannons and launch facilities being their main armament with only limited ship-to-ship weaponry on most vessels. The background for the Thunderhawk notes that they get around the prohibition against dedicated fighters/gunships by virtue of it having a transport capacity and acting as an avenue of deployment for regular Marines even though it's obviously capable of more than that(a letter vs spirit issue, like Sisters of Battle and the Decree Passive). The background on the aftermath of the Heresy is quite explicit - the Imperium never again wanted to have a situation where one madman or one group of Space Marines would be capable of engaging in total war, so their role was limited to that of rapid strike and all other aspects of the Imperial Army were divided between the Imperial Guard, the PDFs, and the Imperial Navy - all fighter and gunship responsibilities, for both voidwar and aerial combat, were the domain of the Imperial Navy. Have a read of Double Eagle, one of the core plot points is that it features literally the only Imperial Guard aircraft regiment in the entire Imperium.

Marines retained some armoured warfare capacity, because they required the ability to engage enemy armour when operating as a mechanised force, but that's the key point - outside of operating in-concert with Rhino-mounted Marines, full-on mass tank v tank battles were specifically noted as rarities or one-off tactics to take on an enemy they otherwise couldn't have handled(like throwing every Land Raider from your chapter armoury at a Titan).

Now, GW are perfectly within their rights to change all that fluff, it's just not a very good change from my perspective since it diminishes both the factions onto who's turf the Marines now encroach and also the Marines themselves, who have gone from colossal badasses who can swoop in and end a war with a single hammerblow assault on the enemy HQ, or even crush a rebellion out of pure fear by simply showing up in orbit, to essentially being "All the other human factions in one, but gooderer". Snore.

Does anyone else find the enclosed cockpit with the WW2 tank visor really bad idea?

And the 'separation of powers' explains why 40k marines do NOT possess a Main Battle Tank. Their only tank is a modified transport that is really the equivalent of a light tank (Predator). The Land Raiders main function is transport into the thickest fighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Capamaru wrote:
Does anyone else find the enclosed cockpit with the WW2 tank visor really bad idea?

The pilot would primarily be flying by instruments. True sight piloting is probably a last resort.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm frankly amazed that space marines don't yet have titans.

Like, straight up flabbergasted that that's their point of restraint.

I was fully expecting a space marine, with his helmet off, piloting a dreadknight, piloting a titan-sized dreaddreadknight.

 SickSix wrote:
And the 'separation of powers' explains why 40k marines do NOT possess a Main Battle Tank.

That's just because they haven't reviled Death from the Grounds: Terrestrial Combat in the 41st Millenium yet!

Would love to see a new Mechanicum aircraft and a Sisters aircraft (if Marines can retcon it why not the Sororitas) rather than another yet horrible looking Astartes flyer

If you have to (as always) give the Marines something - make it a Fire Raptor - at least that looks good!

I have not bought the Fire Raptor as heard bad things about the model going together from a store manager?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 SickSix wrote:
And the 'separation of powers' explains why 40k marines do NOT possess a Main Battle Tank.

That's just because they haven't reviled Death from the Grounds: Terrestrial Combat in the 41st Millenium yet!

You only have yourself to blame for when this happens.

 SickSix wrote:

 Capamaru wrote:
Does anyone else find the enclosed cockpit with the WW2 tank visor really bad idea?

The pilot would primarily be flying by instruments. True sight piloting is probably a last resort.

But these are space marines we're talking about here. I'm surprised they opted for the red painted stripe on the squadron leaders rather than just leave the canopy off entirely to reveal the pilots proud screaming bald head.

Death from the Skies

Source http://m.imgur.com/a/ZBPg7 - via BOLS







From miniwars.eu

http://www.miniwars.eu/2016/04/voladores-40k.html







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cool stuff imho

I hope these rules stay optional and are’t incorporated into the main rules.

It might be fun once and a while, but just including flyers is already drifting away from the core of 40k (IMHO) and adding more focus on them is not a good thing.

Depending on how the rules turn out, it may work well as a stand-alone game.

 Nevelon wrote:
I hope these rules stay optional and are’t incorporated into the main rules.

It might be fun once and a while, but just including flyers is already drifting away from the core of 40k (IMHO) and adding more focus on them is not a good thing.

Beat me to it

I think intercepting enemy flyers and having dogfights off table is cool as it adds interesting features to the game. Now flyers are not a waste of points sitting nearby in the early part of a battle. Flyers getting tactical roles is also interesting.

Warhams-77 wrote:
I think intercepting enemy flyers and having dogfights off table is great as it adds interesting features to the game. Now flyers are not a waste of points sitting nearby in the early part of a battle.

True, but there is a balance between complexity and simplification. I’d rather not spend 10 minutes rolling and looking up tables, or playing rock/paper/scissors to find out of my flyer in reserves has taken a hull point off of your flyer. I’d rather focus on the battlefield in front of me. I’m OK with dogfights happening off screen out of the rules, from a narrative POV. Maybe my marine force deployed to the planet with a full wing of stomtalons, but the reason the one I included in my list showed up on turn 4 was the fact that they were mugged by dakkajets, and he just barely made it to the battlefield for some needed air support.

I don’t need (or want) another phase to tell me what’s happening. There are time I enjoy playing more complex wargames. But for 40k, I’d like to keep it on the simple side.

YMMV. It’s not like there is a wrong answer here. Just how much detail you want represented in the rules.

I'll have to check out the supplement when it comes out. May be time to open a Flying Bakery.

Warhams-77 wrote:

Spoiler:

Death from the Skies

Source http://m.imgur.com/a/ZBPg7 - via BOLS







From miniwars.eu

http://www.miniwars.eu/2016/04/voladores-40k.html







Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cool stuff imho

I'll put it in the OP, thanks Warhams.

 Capamaru wrote:
Does anyone else find the enclosed cockpit with the WW2 tank visor really bad idea?

Maybe the plane interfaces with the marine's armour so the pilot actually has a better sense of his surrounding now that all of the sensors are plugged into his armour.

Could be interesting if auto senses worked so the pilot could feel the wind on his face as he flew or could locate his target by smell.