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I don't know about Abbadon, I grew up knowing his Black Crusades weren't all fails.
But I guess it is a good retcon, if he really was Failbadon.

I think the whole traitor/not traitor Alpha Legion is interesting, too.
Did they always had the twins Primarchs ?

Oddly I actually prefer Newcrons not having FTL.

Dislike: Newcrons and whatever GW are trying to do with Wulfen right now.

Like: Abaddons Crusades no longer being fails.

Things I dislike:
Ollanius Pius (it was a cool story damn it)
Newcrons (i understand why but the old ones were just cooler).

Things I like:
Alpha Legion
The new Grey Knights


I also agree with Vaktathi about Space Wolves.

 godardc wrote:
I don't know about Abbadon, I grew up knowing his Black Crusades weren't all fails.
But I guess it is a good retcon, if he really was Failbadon.

I think the whole traitor/not traitor Alpha Legion is interesting, too.
Did they always had the twins Primarchs ?

The Thirteenth was a success - it was a world-wide campaign that Chaos won, but GW changed it so the Loyalists won.

The Alpha Legion didn't use to have 2 Primarchs in the original fluff, but it was always a planned thing according to Dan Abnett.

RE: Alpha Legion, no not originally that I know. Originally they were the "Alpha Legion" because they wanted to be the best Legion, since they were the last created, and wanted to prove that they were just as good (so basically youngest sibling syndrome). Alpharius became close to Horus, and looked up to him, so sided with his elder brother because IIRC Horus didn't scoff at the Alpha Legion.

The twin primarch stuff and the "I am Alpharius" stuff came later, and while twin primarchs are interesting (although how did the Emperor not know that?) the faceless "I am Alpharius" stuff doesn't sit well with me and seems rather silly. Along with them being covert good guys who are infiltrating Chaos or whatever. The original idea of them being Space Taliban was better, because it was something that Chaos didn't really do except them back in the day. Cult uprisings were their domain, because they were waging a "shadow war" on the Imperium rather than the more direct approach like for instance the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors or Black Legion would do.

I wouldn't call it a success.... I've never heard a good thing about it.

I like the Ollanius retcon. It was supposed to be just the marines on horus ship. Having the guardsman there makes no sense.

I will say this thread will have me trying to read the old lore I can find and see the difference they have retcon'd

Things I dislike:
Squats being completely killed off.
Killing of any unique characters from any codex on a whim. I really miss Wazdakka and the baron.
Space Wolves being just Wolf, murder, and frost everything.
Blood Angels with blood everything.
Black Templars regressing to just a "Space marines: chapter tactics Black Templars" and not their own unique Chapter anymore.
Abbadons crusades seemingly all being fails.

Things I like:
Hard to name one really. To me just the dislikes stand out. Other Lore I do not know enough of the past printed lore to compare to the present, I Just know more of the "new" standards since those are the ones I know and read about.

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call it a success.... I've never heard a good thing about it.

It was a success in that Abaddon conquered Cadia.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call it a success.... I've never heard a good thing about it.

It was a success in that Abaddon conquered Cadia.

last I checked the offical word is the fighting is still on going

Changes I like : All male space marines, no mixed space marine with eldar, space marines kissing and dark Angels being native American.

Changes I don't care for : Iron hands being codex compliant, imperial fist being destroyed to a man by orks, centurion models (Wtf), and whatever is going on with the Wolves.

Worst, mouth frothing rage I have had from a retcon is Fulgrim in that god awful Reflection Crack'd short story.

We had arguably one of the best books in the entire HH series that created a perfect and complete character arch of one man's fall from grace. Fulgrim, the perfect but arrogant warrior, steps on a path to damnation. He unwittingly allows himself to be slowly warped twisted by a daemon, allows his legion to be turned into a disgusting parody of itself, betrays everything he stands for, and then the exact moment he kills his closest brother...the veil is lifted and he is flooded with remorse and shame and tries to end his own life. In that moment of weakness the Daemon seizes control and makes him into a shell for evil. It's so perfectly tragic because we know that only WE the audience know the truth. The monster of the 41st millenium, reviled by all, is not Fulgrim, but a daemon wearing his flesh. Only Horus knows the truth and we the audience also know that he will die, his promise to kill the Daemon after the war will go unfulfilled. It was perfect, Dorian Grey in Space.

"SIKE...Just joking, he was in control all along LOLZ. Yup, he's a big unrepentant gak clown like everybody assumed after all. His mind ate the Daemon or something? Who cares, because twists are awesome right...RIGHT?" No.

"Oh or maybe, wink wink, its all a lie and maybe he is possessed after all *snigger* Haha like we'll ever tell you. Remember how much you like ambiguity around the lost primarchs/Alpha legion allegiance? Well here is some ambiguity sauce all over your perfect tragic arch." In a series that is going on FOREVER, literally one of the few nice, neat one book character arch is thrown into wibbly wobbly, who knows where this thread is going, territory.

Even if he is possessed after all, I no longer care, because now it doesn't fit. I don't care about the character, I used up all of my feelings the first time that I thought it happened. I literally don't care if they flip things around again.

This one is so egregious not only because it was retconned in the span of like 6 years, but by the actual author who penned the character in the first place. I got mad even typing this, I hated that story so much. Actual seething hatred.

And on a final rant, I have so much unease that they plan to do exactly the same with Alpharius too. "Oh the whole loyal thing? Nah, evil all along....Or is he? LOL" Frag you Black Library.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That I can handle, it's the stupidity of the idea of a galaxy-spanning empire with no proprietary FTL that bugged me.

Thankfully FW un-retconned that with their update, and the stupidity of Dolmen Gates weren't mentioned in the 7th Ed. codex.

Indeed, many of the major issues I had with the Newcrons in general were absent from the 7th Ed. codex.

The main one for me currently is the IH retcon from the Clan Raukaan Supplement that changed everything that made the chapter unique and interesting (independent clan-companies that act like mini-chapters, no de facto Chapter Master, etc.) and codex-ified them harsher than the BTs. The fact that it outright contradicted the SM codex released a few months prior was also annoying.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Worst, mouth frothing rage I have had from a retcon is Fulgrim in that god awful Reflection Crack'd short story.

We had arguably one of the best books in the entire HH series that created a perfect and complete character arch of one man's fall from grace. Fulgrim, the perfect but arrogant warrior, steps on a path to damnation. He unwittingly allows himself to be slowly warped twisted by a daemon, allows his legion to be turned into a disgusting parody of itself, betrays everything he stands for, and then the exact moment he kills his closest brother...the veil is lifted and he is flooded with remorse and shame and tries to end his own life. In that moment of weakness the Daemon seizes control and makes him into a shell for evil. It's so perfectly tragic because we know that only WE the audience know the truth. The monster of the 41st millenium, reviled by all, is not Fulgrim, but a daemon wearing his flesh. Only Horus knows the truth and we the audience also know that he will die, his promise to kill the Daemon after the war will go unfulfilled. It was perfect, Dorian Grey in Space.

"SIKE...Just joking, he was in control all along LOLZ. Yup, he's a big unrepentant gak clown like everybody assumed after all. His mind ate the Daemon or something? Who cares, because twists are awesome right...RIGHT?" No.

"Oh or maybe, wink wink, its all a lie and maybe he is possessed after all *snigger* Haha like we'll ever tell you. Remember how much you like ambiguity around the lost primarchs/Alpha legion allegiance? Well here is some ambiguity sauce all over your perfect tragic arch." In a series that is going on FOREVER, literally one of the few nice, neat one book character arch is thrown into wibbly wobbly, who knows where this thread is going, territory.

Even if he is possessed after all, I no longer care, because now it doesn't fit. I don't care about the character, I used up all of my feelings the first time that I thought it happened. I literally don't care if they flip things around again.

This one is so egregious not only because it was retconned in the span of like 6 years, but by the actual author who penned the character in the first place. I got mad even typing this, I hated that story so much. Actual seething hatred.

And on a final rant, I have so much unease that they plan to do exactly the same with Alpharius too. "Oh the whole loyal thing? Nah, evil all along....Or is he? LOL" Frag you Black Library.

This actually reminds me a lot of the first Silent Hill movie vs. its sequel. People had complaints about the first one, some more valid than others, but it also got praises for things. Then a new film crew tried to "fix" the things people complained about for the second one and turned it into a complete cluster . That's what happened with Fulgrim, and if the BL authors try to "fix" other things from the Horus Heresy series, there's a good chance they'll really muck them up. I hate to sound like I lack confidence in BL's authors, but past a certain point... yeah, I lack confidence in BL's authors.

Newcron fluff.

Xenology paired with oldcron fluff was terrifying

 fallinq wrote:

A sweet fluff idea that I hated getting retconned out was in one of the old BL Dark Angels novels. At the end of the novel it revealed that

Spoiler:

it was THE LION and his forces, not Luther's, who were going to side with Horus. They beat down the real loyalists under Luther, but when Horus had already lost before they could get properly involved, they did a 180 again and pretended to be loyal all along, guarding the secret so closely it became completely forgotten by subsequent generations of DA. Now only The Fallen remember the truth.

That wasn't a retcon nor was it a retcon. It was something said by a traitor Dark Angel. It was only said in-universe by an unreliable narrator. Wasn't necessarily true.

Furyou Miko wrote:That I can handle, it's the stupidity of the idea of a galaxy-spanning empire with no proprietary FTL that bugged me.

Wasn't it said that they were doomed to isolation without Dolmen Gates because their previous network had been destroyed\ruined over millions of years? They may have had to use teleportation networks or some such due to their normal FTL being insufficient over the vastness of the galaxy.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Shadow Walker wrote:I hate how Black Templars were changed to basically male version of Sisters of Battle. They were secular [Imperial Truth], psyker hating [and last followers of Nikaea edict] and now they fall to knees when they see an astropath and would kiss an Eccesliarch's arse.

Your lack of knowledge of the Sisters of Battle leads me to believe you should reconsider your analogies.

You may not like my analogy, yet IMO it is accurate [and yes I know SoB lore, I simply dispise them as now I dispise what BT have become].

Not so much a retcon but the general omission of Ork fluff from each release as of late. The concepts of "thinking and it happens" and a lot of the Ork kulture being absent or downplayed is very depressing as they are some of the best bits of unique fluff in the 40k universe. It really helped keep 40k anchored to its satirical and at times comical nature instead of the more recent trend of everything being ultra serious.

 Vankraken wrote:
Not so much a retcon but the general omission of Ork fluff from each release as of late. The concepts of "thinking and it happens" and a lot of the Ork kulture being absent or downplayed is very depressing as they are some of the best bits of unique fluff in the 40k universe. It really helped keep 40k anchored to its satirical and at times comical nature instead of the more recent trend of everything being ultra serious.

Fully agreed!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call it a success.... I've never heard a good thing about it.

It was a success in that Abaddon conquered Cadia.

last I checked the offical word is the fighting is still on going

That's the retcon - Original details here

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Wasn't it said that they were doomed to isolation without Dolmen Gates because their previous network had been destroyed\ruined over millions of years? They may have had to use teleportation networks or some such due to their normal FTL being insufficient over the vastness of the galaxy.

No, it wasn't. It just said that they used sublight torch ships to build the empire, then hacked into the webway when they discovered it and used that. Fortunately, as another poster said, FW gave us back our Inertialess Drives.

Shadow Walker wrote:You may not like my analogy, yet IMO it is accurate [and yes I know SoB lore, I simply dispise them as now I dispise what BT have become].

Your opinion's wrong then, because the Sisters don't love sanctioned psykers. They still and always have distrusted them and barely acknowledge their necessity. Your hatred blinds you.

"BROTHER, BLIND HATRED IS BEST HATRED. I SHALL USE YOUR HATRED TO LAUNCH A CRUSADE AGAINST THE WITCHES AND HERETICS OF THIS UNIVERSE!

SUFFER NOT THE WITCH TO LIVE!"

-Chaplain Grimaldus, probably

And that is why I don't like Black Templars.

Hatred should be directed with both eyes open so that it can best purge the fools who stand in the way of the Emperor's righteous crusades.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call it a success.... I've never heard a good thing about it.

It was a success in that Abaddon conquered Cadia.

last I checked the offical word is the fighting is still on going

That's the retcon - Original details here

I don't regard that as a retcon, because the campaign *began* at the very very end of 999.M41, the end has to be in M42, but since GW has this bee in their bonnet about not moving into M42 they end the BRB/Codex timelines mid-war even though the outcome is known. It's like not including 40k stuff in the Horus Heresy book timelines.

WayneTheGame wrote:
RE: Alpha Legion, no not originally that I know. Originally they were the "Alpha Legion" because they wanted to be the best Legion, since they were the last created, and wanted to prove that they were just as good (so basically youngest sibling syndrome). Alpharius became close to Horus, and looked up to him, so sided with his elder brother because IIRC Horus didn't scoff at the Alpha Legion.

The twin primarch stuff and the "I am Alpharius" stuff came later, and while twin primarchs are interesting (although how did the Emperor not know that?) the faceless "I am Alpharius" stuff doesn't sit well with me and seems rather silly. Along with them being covert good guys who are infiltrating Chaos or whatever. The original idea of them being Space Taliban was better, because it was something that Chaos didn't really do except them back in the day. Cult uprisings were their domain, because they were waging a "shadow war" on the Imperium rather than the more direct approach like for instance the Word Bearers or Iron Warriors or Black Legion would do.

Yes, but it was one of the theories BL had all along, according to Dan Abnett. When he suggested it, BL already had that as a possible story.

I prefer the hubristic guerrilla war Space Marines from the old Index Astartes; I feel they should emphasise it in the current 30k literature. It's not like it can't be combined with the new fluff.

Ollanius Pius' snowflaking.
Necrons becoming Space Tomb Kings instead of a mysterious, terrifying, silent tide of mechanical death.
Every new technological addition to the Space Marines (Centurions, Wolf Wolf Wolf Wolf Machines)
Astra Militarum/Tempestus Scions pointless name 'development'.
Chaos-sort-of-won-the-13th-Black-Crusade-but-not-really-because-that-would-upset-Loyalist-players.
Even seeing a Grey Knight gets you killed/mind wiped.
That weird indecisive nonsense about Guardsmen being killed if they fight Chaos once despite the entire existence of Cadia.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
And that is why I don't like Black Templars.

Hatred should be directed with both eyes open so that it can best purge the fools who stand in the way of the Emperor's righteous crusades.

Have you read Helsreach - Grimladus thinks exactly the same way

Furyou Miko wrote: 'Your opinion's wrong then, because the Sisters don't love sanctioned psykers. They still and always have distrusted them and barely acknowledge their necessity. Your hatred blinds you.'

I never said that SoB like psykers etc. It was about current BT only. I meant that BT are now lackeys of Ecclesiarchy. Also hatred is pure, like any preacher will tell you sister [to quote from The Book of the Astronomican, Inspirational Verse, Imperial Hymnal Vol. IV: 'Hate! Hate! Hate! An emotion as pure as it is deep! Hate! Hate! Hate! Let it flow, let it run free!]

KorPhaeron77 wrote:Worst, mouth frothing rage I have had from a retcon is Fulgrim in that god awful Reflection Crack'd short story.

We had arguably one of the best books in the entire HH series that created a perfect and complete character arch of one man's fall from grace. Fulgrim, the perfect but arrogant warrior, steps on a path to damnation. He unwittingly allows himself to be slowly warped twisted by a daemon, allows his legion to be turned into a disgusting parody of itself, betrays everything he stands for, and then the exact moment he kills his closest brother...the veil is lifted and he is flooded with remorse and shame and tries to end his own life. In that moment of weakness the Daemon seizes control and makes him into a shell for evil. It's so perfectly tragic because we know that only WE the audience know the truth. The monster of the 41st millenium, reviled by all, is not Fulgrim, but a daemon wearing his flesh. Only Horus knows the truth and we the audience also know that he will die, his promise to kill the Daemon after the war will go unfulfilled. It was perfect, Dorian Grey in Space.

"SIKE...Just joking, he was in control all along LOLZ. Yup, he's a big unrepentant gak clown like everybody assumed after all. His mind ate the Daemon or something? Who cares, because twists are awesome right...RIGHT?" No.

"Oh or maybe, wink wink, its all a lie and maybe he is possessed after all *snigger* Haha like we'll ever tell you. Remember how much you like ambiguity around the lost primarchs/Alpha legion allegiance? Well here is some ambiguity sauce all over your perfect tragic arch." In a series that is going on FOREVER, literally one of the few nice, neat one book character arch is thrown into wibbly wobbly, who knows where this thread is going, territory.

Fulgrim used to be one of my favourite characters in 40k. His story was so tragic and excellent. Then this awful, stupid nonsense came along and ruined everything.

Furyou Miko wrote:Hatred should be directed with both eyes open

That is an amazing quote.

I liked old Space Marines as convicts sent to die in the emptiness of space. It was very grim-dark and in the theme of the comics that inspired 40K such as Judge Dredd and Nemesis the Warlock.

I wish they hadn't retconned that half Eldar Ultramarine psyker - not because I liked him, but purely because so many people are unable to cope with the idea of his existence. It pleases me and it pleases Tzeentch.

I'm slightly more pleased with the Newcrons being Tomb Kings in spirit after the horror of 'last chance sales' in Age of Sigmar. That said, the Oldcrons were clearly a lot more sinister and grim-dark.

 fallinq wrote:

A retcon that I liked that has stuck- Abaddon actually achieving things during his 12 previous crusades, and him playing the long game. The people who dislike this, I think dislike it just because it's a retcon, and because they love the "armless failure" meme. But really Abaddon sucking at his job and still being the big guy in charge undermines Chaos as an entire faction, and this works much better from a narrative point of view.

"Abaddon has led twelve Black Crusades against the Imperium. Some have been great invasions of whole Legions of the lost and the damned, others have been vicious raids with only a few companies of the most deadly Chaos Space Marines at his command. Each attack has sent the Imperium reeling and ravaged worlds close to the Eye of Terror. The High Lords of Terra live in fear of the day that Abaddon unites all of the Traitor Legions into an unstoppable horde and returns to play out the last acts of treachery begun by Horus ten thousand years ago."

"Abaddon dreams of forging a diabolic empire of his own from the blazing ruins of the shattered Imperium. Each world, each city destroyed, is a step closer to wiping the canvas clean so he can make his mark upon the galaxy."

"Abaddon the Despoiler, most feared adversary of the Imperium, has slowly but surely marshalled the forces of countless Traitor Legions to the point where he stands on the brink of challenging the Emperor himself as Warmaster Horus did before him."

To me, perhaps with the benefit of perspective of where the fluff is today, the way the 2nd ed codex is setting the scene is Abaddon has been bringing together the forces of chaos to the point where he can launch the greatest and final black crusade, the one which will bring the imperium to it's knees.

Verdict: only Abaddon retcon was the EOT campaign results (arguably the current literature is just set before this occurs, but seeing the WHFB / AoS treatment of SoC I'm not sure that argument holds anymore).